Masters Alliance
9th Dan BlackBelt and Olympic Gold Medalist Herb Perez visit with the best and brightest to bring clarity to the future of Martial arts.
Masters Alliance
Master Chan Lee: Infusing Taekwondo Philosophy into Life's Canvas and Mastering Martial Arts Mentorship
When Master Chan Lee steps into the room, you can feel the energy shift. His life, a rich tapestry woven with the threads of Taekwondo philosophy, kindness, and mentorship, sets the stage for our latest podcast episode. We welcome you to a conversation that delves into how Master Lee's upbringing amidst the Bruce Lee craze informed his compassionate approach to martial arts, and how his communication skills amplified the success of his Taekwondo school. Balancing roles as a community leader and family man, Master Lee shares a narrative that moves beyond kicks and punches, diving into nonprofit initiatives and the profound impact of martial arts on character building.
Have you ever considered the color of a uniform as more than just an aesthetic choice? Master Lee introduces us to the strategic adoption of colored uniforms for student engagement and retention, a vivid example of the innovation required to run a successful martial arts school today. Reflecting on his pivot from pre-med to journalism, and ultimately to Taekwondo, he illustrates the power of following one's passions and the evolution of teaching philosophies to embrace gentler methods for children with challenges like ADHD and autism. From the early days of martial arts business networking to coaching on MTV's Made, Master Lee's journey is a testament to the transformative power of martial arts in personal growth and achieving excellence.
As we wrap up our time with Master Lee, we touch on the critical challenges faced by martial arts schools in today's economic climate and the creative solutions for sustaining these vital community hubs. Master Lee underscores the role of martial arts in instilling confidence and overcoming fears, reiterating its value amidst life's complexities. He shares his vision for the future of Taekwondo, embodied in the American Sabanim Association, which seeks to unify instructors and elevate the industry through knowledge-sharing and mentorship. Just as Taekwondo teaches discipline and goal-setting through its belt system, this episode equips you with the tools to navigate your journey, whether you're a seasoned practitioner or just beginning to explore the martial arts landscape.
Welcome to the Masters Alliance. I am Herb Perez and this is Masters Alliance Podcast Uncut. Today we're joined by an extraordinary individual who believes in the traditions of martial arts and studied with his father and then went on to create some of the most unique programming in our industry, but for the right reasons. He started with verbal judo and then continued on to serve his community, training various individuals and community organizations, and now runs a nonprofit that serves over 10,000 children in his community and schools. His name is Master Chan Lee and he is an amazing person who spends time with his passion, his family and other professionals in the ASA professional organization.
Herb Perez:As we always say, strap in. This is going to be a great conversation with an extraordinary human being who is also an extraordinary businessman and martial artist. So let's get started. Welcome to the Masters Alliance podcast uncut. And today I'm joined by a great friend of mine for many years and I've watched him and the amazing things that he's been doing in the martial arts, but we're going to talk a little bit about that during this podcast. I want to welcome Master Chang Li.
Chan Lee:Hello, sir, thank you, it's an honor to be on here.
Herb Perez:Master Li, it's great to have you here. I want to get started because we've got a lot to cover today, but could you tell us a little bit about what it was like to start training in Taekwondo at such a young age, and did you always want to dedicate your life to martial arts?
Chan Lee:Well, I started, you know, like a typical master's son. My father's a grandmaster in Taekwondo, Chang Muk-hwan, came to the United States in 1975, taught at the YMCA for a year and, you know, opened his first school in central city, central part of Milwaukee, right in the hood and and that's where I got started uh, and I just basically, it's something you did, you knew no different. Plus, being an immigrant child, you know, I would go to school. The bus actually dropped me off right in front of the dojo, so I stayed at the dojang all day. Uh, my mom worked at a chocolate factory, so you know, she was actually the real breadwinner in the first parts of our existence in Milwaukee, wisconsin. And, yeah, everything I did was just, you know, taekwondo every day in the classroom. And at that time it was in the 70s, it was the Bruce Lee craze, so it was the Bruce Lee Kung Fu craze, and so my father really built a Taekwondo school based on just free sparring, right. So we did a lot of fighting, went to open Taekwondo tournament or karate tournaments at that time, and he said at that time it was the only thing he could do to, like you know, build up the brand of Taekwondo was. You had to beat people at tournaments and whatever. So his first crop of fighters were just really, really good and so, you know, they won a lot of tournaments. They found out you know who my dad was.
Chan Lee:You know he got a little bit of a calling here in Milwaukee but then he, to my father's surprise, a lot of the kids, a lot of the people that were learning martial arts, they were starting kind of some trouble in the, in the, in the neighborhoods they were fighting. He'd get complaints, like these students of his were like beating people up in the neighborhood and whatever. And he realized that, you know, character education was also super important in learning martial arts. So one of the things he did was he said that, um, you know, kindness is an important part of martial arts, like kindness is the ultimate self-defense. And I also coined that from tom callos, who's a a good friend of mine. And you know he made his students clean the park and volunteer at their church and he said that if you want to be a great student of martial arts, you have to be a good citizen. And if everybody was kind to each other, guess what? Then we wouldn't have to have to, you know, have police or learn self-defense. So we have to be role models of kindness. So that's where my martial art journey began.
Chan Lee:I graduated from a private high school all boys, catholic, right. My father really believed in education. He said that if you want to do anything great in the United States of America you've got to be educated. So I ended up going to this great private school, went to University of Wisconsin and I went there for a degree in journalism and actually a degree in marketing and also in communications. And going into college, sir, I was like I'm never doing Taekwondo. I said I'll help my dad at the school, but I'm not going to come back and do this as a career. And you know, a funny thing happens, right? You realize it's a part of your identity, no-transcript. I got a Western education but then I went headfirst into helping my father run his taekwondo school.
Herb Perez:Well, you talked a little bit about how your father, Grandmaster Lee, influenced your path as a martial artist and instructor, but you did mention that you have a degree in communications. How has that education complemented your work in the martial arts world?
Chan Lee:You know in the beginning not much, because running a business and getting a college education you know right off the bat, didn't really. You know help. But then over the time you kind of realize some of the mass media concepts, right, sound bites, right, how to craft a carefully worded message. You know, um, I did all my father's advertisements, that type, that stuff began to help. But you know, usually when you learn advertising and communications it's for, like, big companies like miller, or you know GM and so forth, and you have to kind of craft your message with that.
Chan Lee:But I'll tell you what, right after college I got into this whole Tony Robbins world and the Tony Robbins of you know, learning how to like be a better person, learn how to like be a better business person. I learned some marketing concepts from Dan Kennedy and all these other big, big names that I was like holy cow. I've got to learn some of this stuff. On how to like be a better marketer, a better salesperson, I went to like insurance sales training just to even like, because I had no background in sales, right. So I said, let me a resource library in my office and I told my wife. I said that's the $100,000 library. I said, this is the number of seminars I took over the years just to educate myself, to help my father run his school as well. So I credit to my dad too.
Chan Lee:I mean, one of the things is my father is a constant learner and uh, and the thirst to kind of keep learning new things and do stuff. You know, even martial arts, like I was doing judo, uh gumdo, I did Hapkido, my. A lot of my father's grandmaster friends would come up and I would take private lessons with them. So you know we did 70% of Taekwondo. 30% of our curriculum, especially some of the self-defense parts in the beginning was Hapkido based and it was some of that type of stuff that we started off with.
Chan Lee:But over the years I've kept that up. I've learned other things, like defensive tactics for police training, because I noticed we were working with law enforcement. So I trained with some law enforcement people. I also learned something called verbal judo. One of my mentors did training with the Milwaukee County Sheriff's Office and he invited me to this training and I got to learn under the famous Dr George Thompson who trained all the police, especially in LA after the Rodney King riots on how to use words to escalate conflict and I realized that wasn't a part of our curriculum and so I got a chance to retrain that into deescalation contents for our students to learn anti-bullying education and stuff like that.
Herb Perez:And I remember that was my first meeting with you was during the verbal judo days. But I want to move into the part where what led you to take on the business side of the school, and was this a natural transition, or were there unique challenges that you faced?
Chan Lee:You know, I think when you go to college, the biggest experience, I think, for college is to not just get an education that's what everybody thinks it is. I think it's really a way for you to discover who you are, because you're away from your parents for the first time, you start seeing who your friends are and what careers they're getting into. And you know, grandmaster Perez, I changed my major seven times, you know, in typical Asian fashion. Right? Oh, you got to be a doctor. Okay, okay, yes, dad. So I took all these pre-med classes. I hated it. Okay, you become lawyer. So I took, like, all these, you know, political science classes. And it didn't hit me. And a good friend of mine was, you know, he was at my college roommate and he's like you know, why don't you do something you like, just start there. I said, okay. So I started taking some English classes and I was like, all right, well, I can't be an English teacher. You know, I don't, I don't, I don't know if I see that as my calling. And you know, I went through seven different majors before I figured out that I was going to do communications and journalism, right, and so it was about that, it was about that and that's when I discovered I was good at Taekwondo Nowhere near your level, but in my own world I did okay in the Midwest. I also thought my gift was being able to teach. I was able to teach people concepts, empower them through martial arts made you feel good. The weird thing was the level of respect you got just becoming a Taekwondo teacher. So I had college professors that were teachers of mine and they would invite me to their houses for dinner and I'm like, oh, this is kind of neat. They're only talking to me because I know Taekwondo and it opened so many cool doors for me as an undergrad.
Chan Lee:But doing that transition and then helping my father with the business my father is a traditionalist. We only wore white uniforms. So when I said hey, let's wear colored uniforms for our junior staff that help out and our leaders, oh sir, I fought him for two years, like two years he wouldn't let me bring any color uniform. And then one day he said, okay, just these four kids. And then everybody talked about these four kids wearing a red uniform for helping out and I said, dad, look at how great it is for the retention. And he's like, okay, all right, do more. And so little. Things like that were huge for him to open his mind.
Chan Lee:I gave my father a lot of credit. We then it's good for the business and also it's good for the community and I think that's. You know it was hard. It was definitely hard, but you know we found a happy medium that he allowed me to do things and when he was teaching the school it was primarily adults. There was a lot more adults in class than kids. So he just gave me kind of free reign on what to do with the kids program. And you know, we started like cutting the forms in half for somebody. We do, we still do ITF forms, the old ITF forms that are a little longer and harder to learn, and I said, dad, these seven-year-olds are having a hard time learning the whole form, let's just do half, and so things like that. He gave in a little bit but it was hard for him. But yeah, we butted a lot of heads and we grew in the process and at that time there was no trade organization right, there was no NAPMA or Maya or ASSA or any of these organizations AMS I think AMS may have just started and I just remember not like, where am I going to get all this information and so, literally this is before 9-11, right, you could just get on an airplane really easily and go somewhere.
Chan Lee:I went to New York, visited some really big schools there. Tiger Showman's Karate at the time was really big. I visited him. I visited some big schools in the West Coast. That's where I met Master master fariborz, who was really really uh open, uh, was showing me his, his dojang uh and I and, by the way, I bought all his hapkido tapes too. So you know, it was one of those things where I got a chance to meet the people. You know, this is pre-internet, right, the only way you could meet people is you had to go out and just meet them, you know, and them and did that. So that's how I kind of got started in growing our schools and learning the business part. But it was hard, sir, it was definitely hard.
Herb Perez:Yeah, no doubt Listen. What were some of your core philosophies when it comes to teaching taekwondo, and what life lessons do you hope your students will take away from taekwondo, besides the physical skills?
Chan Lee:My philosophy in learning taekwondo and it's also my life philosophy is that it's a way for self-discovery. By learning martial arts you discover who you are as a person, right, and you learn what scares you, what frustrates you, things that you can overcome and making sure that you get that deep life lesson. I think when we start martial arts and to me I was one of those teachers that was very hard on beginners he was like oh, you know what Deeper stance, you've got to punch harder. I can't hear you scream. You've got to be louder, got to punch harder, but I can't hear you scream. You got to be louder. And and when you do that, you know these people and I realized that they're not students yet, these people are customers. So I look at our first three belt rings. I said you know, I tell my staff this all the time. I said they're not students, they're customers and and they have to learn the basics and don't get so enamored on perfect technique in the beginning. Then over time you turn them into students, where they, you know, say hey, we have training at midnight. Yes, sir, I'm there, you know. Hey, we have training at 6 am. Yes, sir, I'm there. Right, but you do that to a new beginner? There's no way that they're going to do that. You know what I mean. You know we've all this right. Someone had a black belt test breaks a toe and you see them hobbling, and then they tape it up and they finish up the test and they're like, yes, sir, I'm fine, or they turn an ankle. You know your, your beginners, won't do that. They're like, oh, I'm done for the day they're leaving. So just making sure that you understand that they, you have to, they have to buy into the philosophy of martial arts about pushing themselves to the limits, being the best versions of themselves, trying their hardest, and then over time they'll understand. This is the way, the detail of this technique, this is what you need to do. So that's kind of been our philosophy over time. But you know, back in the day, right, it was like we used to beat up all the white belts, right, all my dancers, black belts be like all right, all the white belts line up. And then you had 10 new people and two people stayed. You're like, you're worthy to stick around, right.
Chan Lee:That that mentality is definitely gone by the main wayside and, and more and more I don't know if you've seen this, sir, the way that so many martial arts schools are flooded with kids with so many issues, from ADHD to hyperactivity to attention deficit, to you know, you know Asperger's to autism, and we have so many kids that have so many issues. And especially coming out of COVID we're having more kids with issues of just spatial awareness. And you know, I call it good Nunchi. Just, you know, being able to say, hey, listen, I'm kicking the target too hard. I should ease up and just teach him these social cues. I feel like that's kind of like the kicking and punching is there, but it's a tool to help them learn these life skills.
Chan Lee:And I'm very proud to say over the last um 30 plus years that I've been teaching uh Taekwondo, um, we've produced 22 kids that have become valedictorian of their high school and that to me is like a really cool feather. In our cap, this year's class of black belts that have graduated high school, we have a kid going to Northwestern. We have a kid going to um Yale. One of my black belts, uh is going to Yale. Last year I had a kid go to Princeton. So you know, we produce some pretty high-level kids that are oh. Another kid went to Brown.
Chan Lee:So these parents now get it, if they can. They understand that it's a great way for them to develop, you know, the soft skills of life. It's a great way for them to kind of you know, enroll their kids so they don't have it. Back in the day it used to be like what can you do to get my kid into the Olympics? Or what can you do to get my kids to be a top fighter? And now it's about okay, what can you do to make my kid the best version of who they can be?
Herb Perez:And you've answered the question that I was going to ask next, so I'm going to move on to another question, and it's just amazing work that you're doing there, and that's about validating the process, but, more importantly, it's a measurement that we use in our school as well. You know where our kids end up in school and as a result of their taekwondo experience. There was a mtv made episode that focused on your mission for improving students lives. Can you elaborate on what the mission is and what it means to you and how you implement it?
Chan Lee:Yeah, sir, it was, it was. That whole thing happened by accident in a weird way, right, mtv had a casting call for a TV show called Made and it was like I want to be made into a power lifter, I want to be made into a you know, um, you know a ballet dancer. Well, they wanted a kid to be made into a karate kid, all right, and they interviewed like 60 people throughout the Midwest to be this kid's maid coach. And at that time I just had our, our, uh, second child. So I, you know, we had, you know, a kid. That was, you know, a year and a half and a newborn at home. And I asked my wife I'm like I don't know if I can do this, and she's like, just go ahead and try it. So I went out, they did a casting call, I sent like three of my instructors, I did, you know, and they, all you know, did a little, you know, a kind of an interview and and showing their teaching style. And I went and I did my teaching style. And the next thing, I know, I get a call back from New York and they said hey, you know, we'd love for you to be this MTV made coach.
Chan Lee:So I actually, um, lived in Kimberly, wisconsin, which is in near green Bay. Uh, it was an hour and a half from where I lived. So I lived up there for most of the week and train this kid and um, and I basically wanted to show them, like you know, martial arts. You know you have to kind of go beyond your comfort zone. So we woke this kid up at like 6 AM, we ran and trained them and then sent them to school and then I met him at school and brought them back out, uh, and, you know, taught him some sparring concepts and things like that.
Chan Lee:And, uh, you know, this is the MTV's idea, it wasn't mine. They said, well, what if we brought ninjas? I'm like I don't, I don't do anything with ninjas and they're like, all right, well, but it would be cool. So I gave it and we had some scenes where the ninjas, you know, attack the kid in school and do some self-defense moves and, yeah, the the executives of the MTV completely loved it and ended up being the 100th episode of Made and it was a very popular show.
Chan Lee:But you know, one thing I loved about it was this was a computer gaming kid that was not in the best of shape and it was great to kind of teach him Taekwondo. He lost like 30 pounds right, he pushed himself. This was one of the hardest things he's ever done in his life and you know he made some big changes in his life and was kind to his mother near the end and so forth. Parents thanked us and I know it was. I was very proud because it was a chance to show us the other parts of what martial arts can do for people.
Herb Perez:And I think that's. I think that's an amazing story and it'd be interesting to know where he is now. But I'm going to go search down that episode and I actually sounds like he'd be a great president of the United States. But you've been featured in major media outlets and you've consulted, and continue to consult for schools nationwide. How do you see your role in shaping the future of martial art instruction in the US?
Chan Lee:of martial art instruction in the US. Sir, I think you know I lead through the example you've also set out. You know, and I just want to give a shout out to you, sir, you know I saw you at a Kuki One test. I know you don't like to hear stuff like that, but you're an accomplished athlete in Taekwondo. You're one of my heroes growing up. Seeing you get a gold medal in Taekwondo, you put Taekwondo on the map. You did TV shows and all this stuff and you always had a certain level of grace and a certain level of like.
Chan Lee:This is how I want things done and you've given back to our community and I feel like that's also part of my role is, you know, I wouldn't be who I am. I wasn't like self-made. It was one of these things where a lot of my seniors have influenced me and giving back and they've taken me under their wing. You know I used to. I remember I had pretty successful schools in the 90s and 2000s and so forth. And here I am volunteering at the Taekwondo Nationals right, and you know I'm, you know I'm everybody's. You know errand boy, you know bringing water, yes, sir, doing this, and I'm like man I'm. You know I'll probably make three times the amount you do. But the fact that they gave back to Taekwondo to make nationals and all those things, because they really love Taekwondo and they want to help grow taekwondo and I feel like that's part of my role is to, you know, help grow taekwondo to new levels. And you know, if you looked at nationals in the nineties and two thousands, you know mainly, mainly in the eighties and nineties, it was like the most popular martial art to do and we've kind of lost that luster with like MMA coming in kickboxing, yoga, that yoga space with a calm mind and body. That got taken.
Chan Lee:So I feel like all that has been taken away and that our job is to help parents and people understand that if you put your kid through Taekwondo and they start at white belt and they complete it to black belt, and in that journey there'll be a giant transformation of your child. I almost, I a hundred percent guarantee your child will be a better person and you'll be a better person. You know, going through it and and if we can give them a slice of that, um, you know, we can make our country stronger and, uh, and we can make our kids stronger especially. You know people are calling this generation of kids snowflakes. I think if they all made Taekwondo part of the character education, of helping these kids become better versions of themselves, I think it can be stronger. And and so one of the other things I've done is I haven't done with our Black Belt's help is we started a nonprofit Taekwondo program in the inner city of Milwaukee. In the inner city of Milwaukee, and you know we've taught over 10,000 kids there, teaching them free Taekwondo, and we're putting our money where our mouth is. I really feel like, you know, if these kids get a shot to like, be better themselves through Taekwondo, you know we can make our city strong. All our cities have issues and I feel like if we can start with the kids there right, we can do that. Really, I I feel like I have to help promote the positivity of what Taekwondo can do if kids get through it and families get through it.
Chan Lee:I think that, to me, is what I feel like my role is in. You know all the things I'm a part of in terms of helping the next generation of Taekwondo instructors get to that level, because there's there's certain you know you have the Taekwondo master that wants to just produce fighters and get medals and do all that. That's one aspect, but you know they're they're missing some elements there, right, and then you have the other Taekwondo master. That goes well, this is a great business, holy cow. And they don't do anything to improve themselves and they do nothing to, like you know, promote their own education and becoming the master instructors that their students look up to.
Chan Lee:You know, and I want to inspire them to say, hey, you got to level up, you know. And also, at the same time, you know, just, you know making sure everybody is, you know, of a healthy mindset. You know what I mean. I think our country right now is going through so many, so many issues and I think if people just got a better idea of learning martial art, like I'm sure you're a grandmaster Perez, when you got into the ring you wanted to tear the other person's head off, but afterwards you were done, you were great friends, you know it was like there was a, there was a level of respect and understanding and, just like two minutes ago, you were, like you know, trying to kill each other. Where is that type of grace and humility in our country? And I think, you know, taekwondo, in a weird way kind of teaches that to our, to our people.
Herb Perez:I think those are great words, and it really speaks to the holistic approach of a modern day master, and I know we'll be having more conversations about that, and I actually have a section of that that I'd like to speak to you about. I want to transition now, though, to. I know you've trained staff at the Miller Brewing Company, which is one of your community businesses and recognized worldwide. You also helped airline professionals after 9-11. What insights did you gain from working with those unique groups?
Chan Lee:I think one of the biggest things is that when working with Miller, they were looking for a way to keep their employees healthy and keeping their employees kind of motivated. And you know, it was kind of wild at the time we were teaching them. They were owned by Philip Morris, so they were like people smoking in the middle of the hallways You're like holy cow Right, because it was you, because it was a tobacco company. But the executives there really saw a big. It just really cleared their mind. And I think in working with them it was not just about the martial arts, it was like wow, I felt so much stress, relief. I didn't think about my work, I didn't think about anything else. I feel good about myself. I can go attack my day after teaching classes there With the airlines.
Chan Lee:That was one of those right after 9-11, all the flights were suspended and one of my airline moms came up to me and she was a flight attendant and she goes hey, I got to fly in three days but there's been nothing. We don't know what another terrorist attack can happen. Can you teach me? And I said, yeah, I'd be happy to teach you some close quarter stuff elbows, knees, you know how to use a coffee can to like, hit someone. You know, just basic stuff, that you have some, some stuff to do. Uh, and then she calls me back and she goes sir, I have 50 other flight attendants that are colleagues of mine. Can I come? And I said, sure, not a problem. So, no, free of charge, we didn't charge them at all. You know, it was like the right thing to do. United, we stand, make our country strong. And I taught like these ladies some basic self-defense techniques and we just did it for two classes. And then the following day she was flying and you know all the cameras and you know Mary Alwyn was her name and the camera was right in her face and they asked her are you afraid of flying today? She goes, no, I took tech lessons at JK Lee's. And next thing, I know I had CNN there, I had NBC Today show, I had, you know, all the major networks locally, usa Today. I mean, I just blew up, you know, and it was, like I said, purely by accident, because it was something it was the right thing to do right at that time.
Chan Lee:And then at that time, that's where I met some of my mentors, because I could teach you how to knock someone out. But I didn't know how to handcuff you, and so I started working with some top level law enforcement guys. There's a guy named Gary Klugwitz I don't know if that rings a bell, but Gary created the red man suit and Gary lives in West Dallas, wisconsin, and and so I said Gary, can you teach me how to do handcuffing? He goes I won't teach you, but I'll teach it with you. And I said sure, let's do this.
Chan Lee:So we created an airline program that helped flight attendants take people down and then how to cuff them down and so forth take people down and then how to cuff them down and so forth and we were using something called RIP restraints, and RIP restraints are what they use in prisons, where they use Velcro to tie people down. So we said they're not heavy, they're very easy to use. We'll teach flight attendants how to use RIP restraints to put people down on the airlines. And that's what our RFP, our request for proposals, went out to all the airlines. So I was on a vendor list, I was one of the top 30, 30 authorized vendors to work with the airlines. And then next thing, we know that Richard Reed guy happened where he tried to light his shoe on fire, and then all the, all the passengers came in and then they, you know, they hit them and then they took their belts and they tied them down.
Chan Lee:So everything we predicted in the, in the proposal, happened, and so next thing I know I'm doing presentations in front of united airlines, right, uh, midwest express airlines, which was here in milwaukee, and so forth. So we almost landed united airlines and then they went bankrupt, uh, and, and that's when all the you know, the economy went south and so forth. So those are some of the insights. I think the main thing about the airline thing was is that, just do the right thing right. I, uh, and, and that's when all the you know, the economy went South and so forth. So those are some of the insights. I think the main thing about the airline thing was is that, just do the right thing right. I mean, your superpower is this martial arts that you have mastered and when people need it, give it to them and and and give them some enlightenment and and, uh, you know, help, help people in need. And, like I said, it wasn't like a business venture, it was just one of those things we thought it was the right thing to do at that time.
Herb Perez:Well, you have a service mentality and I think that's we need more instructors who serve as role models and then add service into their community as part of their success matrix. And it kind of leads me into my next question, which I know you're passionate about how do you feel Taekwondo can help individuals cope with the challenges of modern life?
Chan Lee:You know, I asked a child psychologist once and I said how does Taekwondo help these kids become better, or how does it help human beings in general? Right, and this you know. This child psychologist came up to me and said well, your dojang mat, where you train, is like a laboratory. So if you have a kid that's shy, or a kid that is scared or is not very confident, then they're probably the same kid outside of the four walls of the dojang. So you have an opportunity to help, give them mechanisms to become more confident on the dojo floor, kiapping loud, doing things that they didn't think they could do, overcoming their fears, and that gives them these things in their brain that they're able to, you know, move forward to. And then you know it's the same thing.
Chan Lee:You know, if you're, if you have a kid that's unfocused like, has ADHD jumping around, but you know they want to get that next belt and they better stand straight and they better listen to the directions or learn, you know, 20 moves of an intricate poomsae. Well, guess what? You know you're teaching them how to focus and and, and you're giving them tools in their brain that they can go through. And so later on, when they are in school, they understand that. Oh, my brain's been there before and so, like I said, I look at my dojang as an opportunity to work with people once again to enhance themselves. It's a laboratory of self-improvement, right, and our tool that we're using is what it happens to be kicking and punching it's our Taekwondo teachings.
Herb Perez:Yeah, and that's you know, that's something that I think about and I often say, and I really appreciate that. You know that what they call bias affirmation right, Affirmational, bias, bias affirmation Because that's what we do, and the reality is that our medium is taekwondo. Not only do you give back in your community that started with a long legacy from your dad, who I also know and respect and have run into many times throughout the years, and I've watched your career evolve from verbal judo to the various things in service in the community and service for Taekwondo on a national level.
Herb Perez:But now you're involved with the ASA, the American Sabanim Association. Can you tell us a little bit about your involvement in it and then what inspired you to become a member or leader in it?
Chan Lee:Well, I live in the great state of Wisconsin. My wife hates it, she thinks I'm a Wisconsin homer. I'm a small town, martial art hick, even though Milwaukee has a million and a half people. But one of the things they did is something called the milk board, right, because not enough kids were drinking milk and there was a dairy thing. And I was like, wow, that's really brilliant. You know that they're trying to, like you know, expose the benefits of milk, right, and you remember the milk mustache ads in the magazines and whatever. And I say Taekwondo needs something like that, right. And so I called it.
Chan Lee:So we created this group called the American Sabonim Association, and you notice the word Sabonim and people go why do you use Sabonim? And I joke with everybody, I'm sick of being called sensei Right. One Karate Kid movie called everybody sensei Right, you could be in Kung Fu and you're not a Shifu, you're a sensei right. And so I wanted to propagate the fact that all these Taekwondo Sabomnim, we have to all get together and we should educate ourselves in becoming better versions of ourselves, just like we're asking our students. And so we learn better business practices, we learn better ways to run our teaching floor, we run better ways to make our community stronger. And you've got some big thinkers because, like I said, I'm just the leader of the group. There are people far more successful than I am in this group and they're willing to share. And then there's other things too like at some point I'm going to be too old to teach or I'm going to exit out of this industry. What's the graceful way we can exit and propagate our brand and our people and our juniors and helping them and, you know, developing partnerships with our next level of leaders, because that's another part of our industry.
Chan Lee:That's kind of terrible, right, because everybody goes off and does their own thing. You know why isn't there one unified group of how we're doing things? There's not anything that unifies Taekwondo and even what. There's ATA, which is a great group. In fact you can make an argument. They're very strong in how they've organized themselves. And then there's ITF, which is only in certain parts of the United States. And then you have USAT, which has its issues, aau, and so you're like, okay, this is a non-political group.
Chan Lee:It was like, what can we do to be better Taekwondo instructors and then also increase the standards of what our industry should be about? Right, like I advocate that every Taekwondo school should have defibrillators. Right, that should just be a basic thing, right? Invest in them, put them in your dojang. You know we've had a couple incidents in our own dojang.
Chan Lee:So, just, you know, being smart about that safety protocols, you know. You know how many times have I don't know like someone broken a finger and one of your unqualified instructors just pulled on it, just stuff like that. You know you're just like all right, we've got to like make sure we, you, you know kind of qualify things, um, even cleaning products, right, like not covid right now, but before that it was hepatitis. Right, hiv the stuff that's on your mat. I mean, what are you doing to clean your mats, to make it sanitary? I have friends that own jiu-jitsu schools and you're talking about staff infections left and right that happen on jiu-jitsu floors. So, like I said, it's everything and anything about making our industry stronger, making Taekwondo have a better education, about like making their dojangs the best it can be.
Herb Perez:And you, uh, while you were talking, you may have seen me glance down, because the milk mustache commercial inspired me, because I have something I'm doing, so I'm. Mustache commercial inspired me because I have something I'm doing, so I'm I'll send you one of the t-shirts I make using that idea for my, my school, uh, changing it from got milk to got kicks, and so now, uh, even you have inspired me, um in a in a in another way, which is great. I think you know one of the things I want to understand, and I think I've heard a little bit about how do you think that the ASA has benefited you in your personal development?
Chan Lee:It made me more mindful on how I treat my staff. It made me more mindful in helping them become, you know, better versions of me and inspiring them to be longer, uh, better versions of me, uh, and inspiring them to be longer, you know, I'm I'm blessed, you know, and and we've had staff that has been with us for 15 to 20 years and I think that's that's cool. I also look at someone like grandmaster uh Chung and Buffalo and and and master Mertens, and I see these relationships and there's people like that that show up, and so, personally, it's for me, it's a relationship. Business Life is about relationships, not just business Life's about relationships and the relationships that you keep, and so to me, that's what it's about. It's about connecting with my staff, connecting with my junior staff, inspiring my students to be better, and looking at it from that, and I think if you come from that standpoint, then I think the money's always going to be there, right. Then all that other stuff about running programs and whatever. Everybody's always looking for tactics, right. What's the latest way I can extract the most money out of my students? Right. But I think it goes beyond that. It's more important about developing the right relationships with your people long-term.
Chan Lee:I have some of my father's original black belts. You know, 35 years plus still training with us and a strong relationship with my father, with myself, with my current staff, and you know that that teaches me something and um I, and which is also very neat too, is that a lot of my father's top black belts are also really important people in the business community locally. You know they're doing really well in life and they're still a part of what we're doing, which also is helping us fund our nonprofits too. So we've got, just when you put cool people together, cool things tend to happen. And I think that's kind of what Asah is about, when you bring everybody together, about when you bring everybody together. But also that's what I realized I can do that locally with my own community is bring cool people together to do cool things through the martial arts.
Herb Perez:You just reminded me and I'm going to need to send you this because a lot of what you're saying resonates with us because when I came to Chicago, where we met for and had some coffee and a great conversation together, I was inspired by the amount of people that came together who love Taekwondo to do the Kukiwon training and then to, ultimately, a lot of them test for different programs, whether it was a PUM Don examiner or an instructor certification, master instructor certification. So this is a question that I've been thinking about for a long time, or what is a modern day master and what should they be teaching? So the majority of the currently majority of the professional business associations help instructors get as many students as humanly possible. We're going to help you get all these students. Unfortunately, they don't tell you what to do with them once you get them. So these guys are getting people running through their doors and I don't want to mention the name, but I met one of these individuals that runs an organization and he says you know, I have all these students coming through my doors and you should join my thing because I have all these students.
Herb Perez:I said well, can I ask you a question? I said what's your biggest problem? And he says retention. And I said what problem? And he says retention. And I said what do you mean? He says, well, after eight months, I go, eight months, he, he loses his students after eight months. And this is a gentleman who has 10 schools.
Herb Perez:And so I did two things. After that one, I didn't join his organization for advice because it wasn't resonating with me on what he was doing and how he was doing what he was doing. He was making, and does make, a lot of money, but he wasn't serving his community or the students, because retention means the students are staying and learning and, more importantly, they value what you do. And then the second thing we did was we really thought about that as a, as an add on, and so I'm going to I want to, with your permission send you a thing that we've been working on called the Modern Day Masters Course kind of thing, and get your thoughts on it, because I think it will resonate with you. But again, this isn't talking about me or some of the things that I'm passionate about. I want you to think about for a second if you could share with us an example of how the ASA members themselves have collaborated with each other cooperated, and how they've helped each other and grow their business or understanding of their communities.
Chan Lee:So one of the things I advocate when you're at ASA is that you connect with people that you know are on your level and some people that are above your level, right. And you know, as you know, in in Taekwondo training, if you train with people that are better than you, you just naturally are going to get better, right, uh? And then you also have your peers that also kind of are your cheerleaders and so forth. So it's like a peer to peer and peer to mentor, typementor type of mentorship, and people call themselves. I was doing some of these calls, but now some people randomly call me and I'll give them things to do and so forth. But I really think it's important that people connect with one another and help each other out, because when I first got into this business there was no group. It was some of my seniors that I would call them and they would help me and vice versa. Or they would come to my promotion test or I would help them out with their tournaments and we would get together and help out, help each other out. So you know every there's no like. And there's another thing there's no one way to run a Taekwondo school, right, there's many different ways, as we were talking before, someone that's running a school Monday through Thursday, right, just being able to just say what's right for you.
Chan Lee:I mapped out what I wanted as a Taekwondo school in my 20s and it was terrible because it was from a single person's perspective and all I did was work. I put in 12-hour days, sometimes 16 hours, no questions, because I wanted to be successful and that's what I wanted. And it, it, it, it grinded on my staff, you know, and and and to me. I was like, if you're not doing this, you're not meant to be in this business. That was, that was the way. And now, once I had kids and I, I matured a little bit as a human being and I was like no, no, no, no, we've got to be equally balanced. You've got to spend time with your family. All my staff only work five days a week, you know, and I don't want them putting more than 45 to 50 hours in a week. You know what I mean and I want them. I give them two days off in a row, and these weren't ideas for me. It was just from learning from other people and just, you know, learning from that and finding what ways that someone's doing success fits your model. You know what I mean.
Chan Lee:I know a very small school owner in a small town who you know, doesn't do big numbers but he's a multimillionaire because he's invested well and he only works his dojang four days out of the week and it fits right for him. You know what I mean. And any other person could put their version of what success is. The man has put his son through a high level college, he's been at his graduations, he's able to be around for his kids and so forth. And I look at that person. I said that's his definition of what success is and I think you got to find that. You got to find that what you want. You know what I mean. And I look at that person. I said that's his definition of what success is and I think you've got to find that. You've got to find that what you want. You know what I mean and I think that's important.
Chan Lee:And I think some people are just enamored in like I've got to make as much money as I can. Some people it's like, okay, I want a life-work balance. You've got to find that medium with yourself. But personally I think it's having children. My biggest gift to humanity, to me is my children. I hope they do good things on the planet and I hope they do good things in their community. They understand what I want from them and I spend as much time as possible.
Chan Lee:Even today, I took off. Today I'm going to be watching my daughter's lacrosse game and I don't miss those for the world. I do the same for my staff too, and I don't miss those for the world, you know, and I do the same for my staff too, you know, and I think I don't want them to not be somewhere for their kids. And then there's resentment for the dojo. So you're saying that those are the things I hope people learn, and they, they, they find their version of success when they get there and and and.
Chan Lee:The variety of people that are at the organization is incredible, from like people that have 10, 15 locations and they own like 80 of the buildings that they're in, to the guy that is struggling with a hundred students and he's just looking to make it and he's struggling with rent we have that guy there too and they immediately I can't tell you the number of times people have come back and I call it the phenomena Like a year later they come back and you're like what happened? I paid off my house. Thank you, sir. I'm like, oh, that's great. You know that, you know they did the work, but they took that advice and took massive action on it, and I think that's that's the most important part of of of Asa is getting inspiration for yourself and then taking action in the advice that you're getting.
Herb Perez:Well, along that line, what are some of the biggest challenges that martial arts school are facing today, and what advice is Asad giving them to address those challenges?
Chan Lee:I think the two biggest challenges, in my opinion, is the rising cost of labor, right, I think, finding instructors and then compensating them without also, like you know, developing that next core group and and and having them, you know, develop, I think that's a really big challenge, um, you know, with that Um, and then being able to, you know, find that sweet spot where, you know, with inflation, right right now, you know how much can you raise your rates that's going to reflect it without, you know, middle-class, obviously, upper middle-class, no problem, but if you're in a middle-class to lower middle-class, you know, I have a couple of dojo's in there how is that affecting your business? And how are you going to adjust your pricing? You know, to help these families, uh, as you're, as you're, navigating through these times and so forth. And you know, grandmaster, families, uh, as you're, as you're navigating through these times and so forth. And you know, grandmaster Perez, you and I've been through this several times, right, the 08 crash, right, the dot-com crisis, right, my father, in 1987, went through the, the, the big crash there. You know the early eighties and you know, so we've been through it, we've been through it, and it comes back down to his value.
Chan Lee:What type of value are you giving your families? What type of value are you giving them where they go? I'm not going to cut this out of my budget, right, and I think that's incredibly important. And then, at the same time, instructors, you know I have. I don't want to say free labor, but I do have a lot of volunteer instructors that have the same philosophies that we do. Like, one of my assistant instructors is a seventh, don Kuki one. Right, he's a college professor. He teaches two classes for me. The man is entertaining, the man is great, the man has great knowledge. He doesn't do it for the money, he's just doing it to give back to our community, right? So you know, anyway, those are some of the challenges I believe that are going on and, you know, I think we found some fixes with that, with finding some volunteer staff and also a philosophy of the right people that are a part of your organization.
Herb Perez:And what advice would you give to other martial art professionals who are considering joining the ASA?
Chan Lee:You know, if you look at the business as a a whole, it's a pretty simple business, right?
Chan Lee:It's get members, keep members, that's it right. And you know, making sure that you have the right tools to get members right from a great website, the great internet marketing, the great internal promotions to bring, have your students bring, bring their friends to get referrals into your dojo. And then two, how good is your curriculum? How good is your curriculum that engages people to want to keep training? And how well do you educate parents to say, oh, it's not just, you know, this kills me, right? Oh, sir, we're going to take a break because we're going to join soccer or baseball or whatever. To the point where you go, sir, we're never going to stop. We're going to come, maybe just once a week, but Teplando is way too important. So what is your curriculum saying? Is it just great kicking and punching or does it move beyond the kicking and punching? Do the people see those benefits? And, once again, value and value. And so that's my advice is you know if you're, if you're doing that just, it's a simple business, but there are some formulas behind that you have to do get members and keep members Right. And what can you do to keep someone that's with you for a year, two years, three years, five years, a decade, right Through high school? Right? As a young adult, you know what I mean. I think those are things that you've constantly. Your role as the headmaster is to make sure that you're constantly giving them journeys, giving them hurdles to go over and things that they can reach for, because if they feel like they're not learning and moving and doing something, then they're going to quit. They're going to move on to something else. They'll move on to the Brazilian jiu-jitsu, right. How many times has that happened? Or, sir, I want to join an MMA gym. You know what I mean. So, just being able to do that. I do say, though, sir, the two absolutes.
Chan Lee:If you just look at our business from an outside, fitness is always going to be number one. I think people always want to get in shape, right. Look at the fitness industry. So are your classes giving a good workout? And then, number two, self-defense. Does your curriculum address realistic self-defense where they feel like that's valid, like swimming, right, it's a valuable thing. I got to keep knowing that, right. There's a third thing which is super important and it's mainly for kids is the character development Are you doing? Are they? Are they cleaning their rooms? Are they working hard at school? Are they paying attention to their parent? Uh, uh, teachers, are they listening to their parents? You know, those are the three main keys. I think is universal if you're going to be running a school.
Herb Perez:And I have one final question, and then I'm going to wrap up because I don't want to take up your entire day, but actually maybe two things. But this one would be kind of a little ephemeral or a little salesmanship-y, but what advice would you give to someone considering to start their own martial arts journey, either as a student or as an instructor?
Chan Lee:Um, for anybody that wants to be a student, you know, I think, um, it's important that you do things that you feel like that's good for you, right, that brings you joy, that keeps you in shape and keeps you connected to a community. I think there's nothing better than Taekwondo. I think the community of people that go to Taekwondo it's amazing when I have black belts go off to college and they join the Taekwondo program. Their best friends are still a part of it. Even they all went to different dojongs. Their friends are still in that Taekwondo club and it's just a community of great people. Friends are still in that Taekwondo club, right, and it's just a community of great people.
Chan Lee:So anybody that wants to, like you know, do something productive and make themselves and enhance themselves to be better, you know, especially for kids, you know. You know Taekwondo is nothing better and I think it's built into Taekwondo for kids. Parents that are enrolling their kids to build character and reach a goal, like the belts, are all about goal setting, learning something, mastering it Right, and I guarantee that if your kid is six or seven and he gets his black belt by 10, by the time he attacks middle school, he's going to have tools that other kids don't have because of the fact that he did Taekwondo Right. So that's the first thing I would say For anybody that wants to become an instructor. I think the first thing I would I would say for anybody that wants to become an instructor Um, I think the biggest thing is that you have to take joy in making people happy, right, you know, make sure that you know it's it's not just about the kicking and punching, right? Yeah, you could be, you know, you could be the greatest martial artist in the world.
Chan Lee:But you know, if you, at the end of the day, the person you're working with feels more frustrated or feels they've been condescended to and they don't feel good about themselves, then it's not the right business. Your job is to bring smiles to people's faces. This is a quote from Dr Thompson, who created Verbal Judo, and he said that you know, he said this for all the police officers, and I think it's a great quote for Taekwondo masters too is that when you meet someone, make sure you find them in a better place than before they met you. And I and I I think that's true Like every time you meet someone, they should feel like man. That was a great conversation. Oh that sir that I'm so glad I didn't want to come to class, but I feel so much better about myself that that's where you want to leave people when they leave dojo, right, uh, and I think you know that you should come with that in mind if you want to become an instructor.
Herb Perez:You know, every, every day when I meet someone or I speak to someone, and today's going to be one of those days. As soon as I get off this podcast, I have a little journal that I keep of quotes and memorable things that I'd like to remind myself of, and I'm going to jot that one down. It's I have one from John Holloway and he said someone had told him when he went to meet him. He said taekwondo is for everyone, but not everyone is for taekwondo. And what you just said is it's in that realm of things to be said and to be remembered, and if we could all remember just to think about that in a certain way.
Herb Perez:I'll share a personal story about you and I. I had made a statement and you became aware of it and you reached out to me to talk to me about it and had the courage, as a friend of mine, to say hey, what did you really mean to think about and say was that really what you wanted to say and do you understand what you're saying? And it caused me to reflect upon it and retract that statement and grow as a person. And then we spent some time together and one of the things that I've always liked about you is that willingness to help others change and to see themselves through a different lens and a mirror that we can't see in individuals. And I can hear it in the way that you approach taekwondo. Which brings me to my final kind of thought. And I know that you have another event coming up with your group of amazing individuals that you cooperate with and cooperate with and get together in the ASA event. Can you tell us a little bit about your upcoming event in Las Vegas?
Chan Lee:Yes, sir, we're going to be at the Horseshoe Casino in Las Vegas, which is right across from Caesar's Palace, dallas, and we have some top instructors from Canada. Grandmaster Seungmin Ri is coming in and he's going to talk about some poomsae and training methods for poomsae, and then I'm very happy to say you are coming, sir. I think this is the first time, right, and love to see you there. We have a Taekwondo person who has hit it big in the MMA world. We have Coach Eddie Cha, who trained the Korean Zombie, henry Suhudo, some of the best MMA stars and he has some Taekwondo footwork and some other footwork he came up with in his striking system.
Chan Lee:So, just, you know what's our biggest failing in taekwondo? Our hands, right. Taekwondo, people don't have hands. Well, you know he's gonna, uh, you know, show, show us some of his uh hand curriculum. I'm sick of doing horse riding stance, middle punch, right, uh. So just, uh, doing a little bit more practical stuff there. Um, and then, um, you know, I know we have another person, master Rick Shin, who started a combat Taekwondo league doing something a little bit of counter different.
Chan Lee:So anything that promotes Taekwondo that might be a little different. He's also going to be there as well, and so, like I said, we have a Miss Shannon Park who has a degree in working with little kids and how to work with little children, and sometimes we're getting all these itty bitties in our school four or five sixes and maybe we're not communicating the best way with them, and so she's going to bring a different flair to that as well. So it's a very diverse group of teachers and masters and so forth and, like I said, I'm very blessed that these people are still willing to talk to me when I call them and that they're willing to share their knowledge and bring us all together, and also that we feel inspired and that we can bring it back to our dojo and that you have something usable stuff. Obviously, there's the usual stuff about business and so forth, that people are going to talk about new ways to to get people through the internet, ai.
Herb Perez:There's some other other things that are coming down the pipeline as well, so well, I I didn't mention it because I'm coming, but I I have meant to come for a long time and I'm honored to be invited, but I'm coming to learn, so I I'm coming to spend time. You know, I come from a school where we were known for punching and back, when punching wasn't performatory, it was practical and we did it. And so our instructor you know, my instructor, may he rest peacefully was one of the best punchers I had ever met and we fought a lot of those point tournaments as well. So I look forward to meeting Master Cha and working with him, and I've watched Ms Park's videos. She's an inspiring individual. So I look forward to learning and getting a chance to get my dolbak a little wet.
Herb Perez:It's been a little while since I've trained hard enough to make it wet. I train every day, but my biggest competitor now is my six years old. You know, my biggest competitor now is my six years old. I'm up to fighting six years old again, but again, master Lee, you know, one of the things I've always loved and respected about you is your penchant for tradition and respect for your dad and respect for the community that created you and created all of us, and your continual willingness to help others live that lifestyle and live the life that we all have benefited from, and the words that you have said resonate with me. I look forward to seeing you shortly, but I want to thank you on behalf of Masters Alliance Uncut. I couldn't think of a better guest to have spent an afternoon with.
Chan Lee:Well, thank you very much, sir. It's an honor to be on your podcast.
Herb Perez:Thank you, sir. Well, that was inspiring. What an amazing man, what an amazing young man who is doing great things in his community for his students, for 10,000 students in his community and now for the martial arts industry in general. Too often, we're met with people who don't serve as role models, but rather serve as just profiteers. This is an individual who does it for the right reasons, was taught the right reasons by his father, grandmaster Lee. So, on behalf of the Martial Arts Podcast Uncut that was Master Lee, chan Lee lee, and I am herb perez. Thank you for listening and don't forget to check out our other podcast with our olympic champions, coaches and just people who inspire us to be better than we can be every day and in every way. Thank you for listening and see you on the other side.