Masters Alliance
9th Dan BlackBelt and Olympic Gold Medalist Herb Perez visit with the best and brightest to bring clarity to the future of Martial arts.
Masters Alliance
Master Michael McKenzie: From Humble Beginnings to Global Taekwondo Leadership and Mentorship Mastery
What does it take to journey from a small mining town to the global stage of Taekwondo? In this riveting episode of the Masters Alliance podcast, we sit down with Master Michael McKenzie, a trailblazer in British Taekwondo. Michael shares his inspiring story, beginning from the moment he was inspired by the old Kung Fu TV series at the age of 10, to overcoming physical challenges and enduring rigorous traditional training. His anecdotes from those early days in a modest setting underscore a dedication that would eventually propel him to the forefront of Taekwondo worldwide.
Listen as Michael and I explore the evolution of Taekwondo and the crucial role coaching plays in the sport’s development. From teaching underprivileged kids to founding Quest Taekwondo, Michael opens up about the emotional and physical trials of mentoring young athletes. We discuss his transition from athlete to coach to international board member, highlighting his relentless pursuit of greater recognition and support for British Taekwondo. Michael's insights into securing funding and representation draw fascinating parallels between Taekwondo's rise and that of triathlon, painting a vivid picture of the sport's growing potential.
As we delve deeper, Michael shares the complexities of coaching at the Olympic level and organizing successful competitions. His personal anecdotes, including the creation of the mantra "In Mike We Trust" by his players, illustrate the importance of trust and self-coaching. We also touch on his passion for continuous learning and broadening perspectives, emphasizing the value of remaining a perpetual student. Join me, Herb Perez, in celebrating Master Michael McKenzie's incredible journey and unwavering dedication to Taekwondo, showcasing how this sport can transform lives and communities.
Welcome to the Masters Alliance podcast, Uncut. I'm Herb Perez. Today I am joined by my first international guest and a man who has done amazing things in the Olympic sport of taekwondo and in the martial art of taekwondo in Great Britain. Master Michael McKenzie has sat at virtually every table inside his country and on the world stage and today he shares his thoughts about the future of Taekwondo, where it's heading but, more importantly, why he continues to be passionate about trying to help it grow on the world stage. Relax, strap in. As always, this is going to be an amazing podcast. Thank you, Welcome to the Masters Alliance podcast on CUT.
Herb Perez:And today I'm joined by one of the most influential people I've met in the sport, in the art, but more importantly, probably in the world movement, the sport in the art, but more importantly, probably in the world movement. And he's our first international guest, of which I'm really proud because, knowing him throughout the years and then watching what he's done for the sport and for all of us, I'm just excited to have him on today and I'd like to welcome Master Michael McKenzie. How are you, sir?
Michael Mckenzie:I'm very well, thank you, and I'm really honored to be invited to take part in this podcast and interview. Thank you very much for inviting me.
Herb Perez:Well, you've just been amazing to watch. You've been a strong and steadfast voice in the movement and you've helped us, over the years, understand what was possible. You've helped your country, your athletes, go from just average performances, like we all had, back way, way, way back when. And then, by using the movement and all the things available to us, you now have created, along with others in your country, one of the most influential programs in the world, with a number of world and Olympic champions. But I want to talk more about in the beginning. Your taekwondo journey spans decades. Can you share what ignited your passion for the martial art and how this passion has evolved over the years? That's a great question.
Michael Mckenzie:It's, uh, it's like asking somebody why they breathe, you know it's like do you still enjoy taekwondo? I don't know, I just do it. This is it. Um, I started when I was 10 years of age. I, uh, I was, um, I think probably the thing that got me interested in martial arts in the beginning was the old uh kung fu tv series with david carady. So this is like, yeah, I was too young to see anything. Bruce lee, I didn't know, I've never heard of him when I was that age, you know, um, I was too young for that.
Michael Mckenzie:Um, I was in the Cub Scouts and there was a guy picking on a bigger guy, on a smaller guy, should I say? And I got involved with it and got into a little scuffle. So our Cub Scout leader, arkela, said to me you know, go and try some boxing, because I was seen as a little fighter, which wasn't me at all, it's just I was in that situation. So I went boxing for a few, uh weeks, but I didn't like the fact that you, they could. I don't really understand what sparring was. So when people were hitting me and I, you know, I didn't understand the difference between sparring and fighting. So when people punched me in the face I wanted to hit them really hard and stop the fight, as it were. Um, and then a friend of mine called Stephen Simpson I'm still in touch with him today um, he invited me to what I thought was a karate class because I'd never heard of taekwondo, and um, I went along with him. That was March 1979 and I've been doing it ever since. Um, it turned out it was taekwondo. I know the dates because I used to keep a diary then as a kid, and um, in that diary I used to be scribbling you know the old, because I used to keep a diary then as a kid, and in that diary I used to be scribbling you know the old FIS logos and drawing people kicking, and it's been an obsession with me ever since.
Michael Mckenzie:The way that I took it on to the next level was I was training in a club and we never really went out of our. When we say club, it's a school. In the UK. All the clubs around me, all the schools were amateur, so it was like two nights a week in a church hall or a community center or a sports center. So I was in this little mining town in the north of England and we went and there was maybe 70, 80 people training at some points.
Michael Mckenzie:You know all men, you know um, mostly a lot older than us. Um, there was three of us that were children, the rest were men, young men. Um, some of them didn't like us training the, the younger ones training, so we used to get pretty roughed up. You know, um, I used to cycle three miles to the, to the, uh, to the class, and then I'd walk back because my nose was bleeding or my lips were bleeding, and I was from a very large family, a very rough family. If my dad had seen that these guys had done this to me, he would have gone with a few of my uncles and, you know, not unarmed, as it were. So it would have been quite interesting. So I had to walk home and get rid of the blood before I got there. But I got them all back. So it's, it's okay.
Michael Mckenzie:You know, it was a much more physical experience back then. You know, um, what was done to us with the class of child abuse nowadays? You know hitting people with sticks when they moved out the stands and you know press-ups on knuckles for wanting to go to the toilet or have a drink or something, but it was. You know, it was traditional, it was old school training. I was really interested in it.
Michael Mckenzie:I was reading the American magazines, the Taekwondo Times, because they weren't the combat magazine. In Britain there wasn't anything too Taekwondo specific. That's when I first came across you a few years later and followed your career as much as possible full magazines at the time and then, realistically, I got dissatisfied after about six years I didn't feel like I was going anywhere with the club. So I started going through and training with other clubs which my instructor wasn't keen on because he wanted. You know, it's like he saw that as being disloyal, which I never was. But I needed more. Twice a week wasn't enough for me, you know. The classes were too big. You know we just weren't getting enough attention and, to be truthful, the instructor didn't get my name right after six years. So this is a guy who is not actually, you know, the best instructor and I knew this. Um. So as a cocky 16 year old I thought, you know, I can actually instruct better than this guy. So I got to the stage where I was saying, look, can I do the warm-up and stretch? And he'd let me do this and you know I was using scientific techniques at the time and looking for. You know I was researching how to warm up and stretch properly, because a lot of people are having problems with the knees with all the bunny hops and all the old school exercises that we used to do. So I was by, even by 16. I was already thinking a little bit more about seriously, about developing my take on it, and I was working with other people and then after that it was basically I.
Michael Mckenzie:The next thing again was an American influence. I went to summer camp in 1987 and it was an underprivileged camp from kids from New York, so kids from Queens, harlem, yonkers, all these sorts of places and we would teach. You know, at that time Mike Tyson was a big role model and you know a lot of the guys were trying to follow his lead, as it were. No criticism of the Americans, but all the American counselors quit in the first two weeks, so it's just European counselors that were looking after these kids and, um, you know it was hard work. It was emotionally hard work and it was physically very draining, but I knew that if I could teach these guys, I could teach anybody.
Michael Mckenzie:When camp finished, four of us traveled down the east coast and, although I didn't train with anybody, I sort of like looked at the other pages and saw all these taekwondo clubs listed in the pages and saw posters and things of place and I thought actually, you know, I might give this a go when I get back to the UK. Um, there's massive unemployment in the UK. At that time, the mining industry which all my family had been involved with, had closed down and been decimated. So, um, I thought, you know, I'm going to give this a go. So and I traveled out to my local region. I was traveling about 750 miles a week as a 19, 20 year old trying to teach taekwondo classes in other places. And that's how Quest started.
Michael Mckenzie:And just to not trying to, I'm not sorry I'm waffling on here, but the the reason why it's called Quest is that in 1988, when Taekwondo was made, you know, made its debut in the Olympic Games, I was training seven days a week. I was pretty fit, I was active, I was strong, but I was in the wrong organization. I got no chance. I got the wrong coach, the wrong instructor, the wrong organization. And the reason why Quest, my club, is called Quest is that I always my mission, my, my goal, my objective was always to give my students the opportunity to fulfill the potential which I may have been. I wasn't that great a player, to be honest. An athlete I don't like saying play, I don't know I said that, um, I was never that great in that sense, but I should have had a chance. I didn't have a chance and that's why it's quest so.
Herb Perez:Sorry, that's a very long answer on that first part it's a great answer and I'm just kind of reflecting upon how much we have similar backgrounds. I didn't understand sparring from fighting. I went to a camp for underprivileged kids. I actually taught taekwondo in camp and I'm surprised I didn't. I was trying to train for the olympics at the same time and so I was the summer camp counselor and met many great coaches and athletes and, quite frankly, people from the UK in the process. But you've mentioned a few things that spur interest to me, but one of them is you transition through many roles, from an athlete to a coach, to international board members. How did that shift your perspective on taekwondo with each of these roles?
Michael Mckenzie:How did that shift your perspective on Taekwondo? With each of these roles I think I was very my timing was very lucky. I think Taekwondo changed from an indigenous Korean martial art to a world sport and still kept the martial art elements of it. I feel it has. So I've grown with Taekwondo, you know, from being something that people have never heard of in the uk to we've got two boys from yorkshire going to the world to the olympic games. So you know it's well known in in our communities now. So, um, I've been very fortunate with timing.
Michael Mckenzie:Um, I first got involved with the great Britain team again, it's an American influence a guy called Brett Moldenhauer who came over from visiting relatives in Yorkshire. He called into my Taekwondo club and I at that time it was still quite young, it was a very young club so I didn't really have anybody. So I said look, you know, down the road in Doncaster we got the great britain team coach and they're a great rent team manager. Do you want to go down and we'll do some work with them? So we did, for he stayed over for about a week. He did quite a few training sessions with us. Um, but more relevant for me is that he. You know, I started working with a guy called pete adamson's and um. From there we just took every opportunity we could to progress.
Michael Mckenzie:British Taekwondo, gb Taekwondo. Originally we worked with the women's team, then we got the men's team as well and it was just one opportunity after another. But it was a case of why did he become a board member? Well, the team needed more representation on the board because we need to try and get funding for the team. So, okay, I'll join the. I put myself forward for the board of British Taekwondo and we got on it.
Michael Mckenzie:So it's necessity and opportunity. I think is simple. How Taekwondo has changed since then is realizing that it's it's the best way of putting it we are an underperforming activity. If you look, the triathlon was recognized at the same time as Taekwondo was, and yet they get more media coverage, they've got more sponsorship, this sort of thing. So it's like we've got this wonderful product that we can't, that we haven't fulfilled our potential yet.
Michael Mckenzie:And we might, we've got time, we've got plenty of time. You know, in England you get used to talking about hundreds of years, not years. So with our history, you know we've got time to do things. So I think it's just a case of necessity and opportunity, making those two work. You know we need to make some changes. Here's the opportunity to do it, do it. Sometimes. You know we need to make some changes. Here's the opportunity to do it, do it.
Michael Mckenzie:Sometimes, you know, you run into a brick wall. Sometimes it's, you know, sometimes it's time, occasionally, two or three times, I said, right, this is it for me, I've stopped, I'm going to take a step back. And I've had a few years where, you know, I've just been in. Some people call it the take one to wilderness or just out there, but it's. You know, I've just been in. Some people call it the Taekwondo wilderness or just out there, but it's. You know. Basically, whenever I've not been involved with the boards or teams or whatever, then I've just trained like crazy myself, you know, improve my own physical training and also work with students more, because always, whatever role that I've had, I've also been a club instructor since 1988. And that's been, you know, my focus. That's always what I've gone back to. So if I've not been working on this committee or that committee, then the focus has been my club that's going to lead us into our next question, and I and you've mentioned something that resonates with me.
Herb Perez:It's people forget that taekwondo is a personal journey and that it's a goal-oriented journey and you don't necessarily need to be always in a role where you're leading something, but when called upon you can. But coaching has played a significant part of your career. What are some of the key principles that guide your coaching philosophy and how have you seen them impact your athletes or the ones if you've reached through the gb performance program?
Michael Mckenzie:I think, um, I want my players to be happy, I want them to be healthy and I want them to be able to fulfill their potential, but I also want them, I want them to have any opportunity that's taken for you know, make sure that we we give them the opportunities, um, but the most important thing about what we do is that it's an individual sport. So, from a coaching point of view, you might lead a session point of view. You might lead a session of 20 people, you might lead a session of 30, whatever number, but everybody's individual. So, you know, for me, from a specific, if I'm talking about coaching, technique is that you recognize the factors that make up that individual and you work with those, the strengths and the weaknesses. You don't say, okay, this is what's working in taekwondo right now, this is what we're going to be for every 60 people doing this, or I want 30 people doing the same footwork drills over and over again, that's okay.
Michael Mckenzie:In a club level, that's okay. Um, when you're instructing, it's not okay when you're coaching. When you're coaching, you work with the individual. So I'd say that you can never really be coaching. You can be instructing hundreds of students, you can be teaching a seminar. You can inspire people and hopefully people will learn from that. But coaching the people the athletes number that you're coaching is probably going to be about 12 to 15 at tops, I'd say.
Herb Perez:And that's a great point. You have hit, to be honest, one of the fundamental ideas of coaching athletes and that is and I always say this a good coach can help a good athlete and a bad athlete. A great coach can help great, good and bad athletes, because they understand the uniqueness of the athlete and how to bring the best out of them. A bad coach can't help anyone. That's a different story. But you know, your experience as a WT broadcast commentator is unique. What insights did you gain from seeing Taekwondo through this lens and how did it influence your understanding? Cause you mentioned the sports well, challenges with global appeal. So how did it help you make an opinion about that? But, more importantly, what do you see as a result of that?
Michael Mckenzie:I think there's a few different areas to discuss. On this one, the actual benefit for me was that I'd run the Olympic Games. I started to commentate probably 18 months later. It's not the first time I've done it. I'd done it way back in the 90s, so I got very little, limited experience. But I took this forward with WTN I think that they were after the games. I think they were very happy with the job that I'd done under quite difficult circumstances, which I know you've mentioned more last later.
Michael Mckenzie:But we started with the tv commentary and, um, the production values weren't great and it was quite a challenge learning how to do it. I was fortunate because, um, I was mainly working on the grand prixs to start off with the new grand prix system, and a lot of these athletes have been involved in the Olympic competition or were high level athletes. So one I knew the athletes. I knew the referees because I was an international referee before the Olympic Games and way back from the 90s. So I knew the referees. I knew the players, which I thought was really important as a commentator that you need to. You know when the match is not that exciting, there's some interesting story about these guys because every one of them has got a story, you know.
Michael Mckenzie:So I try to, and I always try to, be positive about the games. I know some people critique the style of it and everything, but I always try to be positive and a little bit I liked, because I did know the rules. It's when, when an appeal comes in, I know where it was from, where some people would say, well, I'm not sure what's happening here. I always try to say I think this is happening, um, and yes, I'm right, or no, I'm wrong. You know it's completely wrong. So I think for commentary we need good commentators for the sport. You know I've just watched a football match. England were in the European quarterfinals.
Herb Perez:Congratulations, I knew, that's why we were meeting a little bit later. I was watching that saying congratulations.
Michael Mckenzie:Well, you know the penalties was the most exciting bit of it. You know which is there's. You know millions of people in England sat on the edge of the sea. You know which is there's. You know millions of people in england sat on the edge of the sea. You know, because we've not got the greatest. You know history of penalty taking and you know, then, all of a sudden, these guys today have just been absolutely amazing. But you know for that some of that much. As an englishman, you know we've not had a great european football champs, soccer championships, and you know I'm not that interested in other sports. To be truthful, I'm only interested in taekwondo. When I was in olympic games I didn't. I could have gone, watched over the sports, but I didn't. I was so focused on what I was doing with the taekwondo. So, um, I think you've got to be. We need commentators who are passionate about the sport, who know the sport, who know the people in it and know the rules and things.
Herb Perez:And I think that's a great segue because we want to talk about your London Organizing Committee role and that was a major event and can you share some of the behind-the-scenes challenges and the triumphs from being the Taekwondo Sport Manager, sure?
Michael Mckenzie:I think until you've worked on the Olympic games you've got no idea of the scale of the event. You know it's like 26 world championships all in one, two weeks in the same location, and um. I started off as technical operations manager so I was given put the Taekwondo knowledge into the event and you know we had meetings where I was actually basically this is a one ring, one contest area, a competition that goes over four days with 128 players. It's a very, very simple, very, very easy format. But I was in London for two years beforehand planning this one event and it's working with all the other functional areas. You know, is this chair for the referees ergonomic? Is it, you know, being responsibly sour? You know, when this shows the legal aspect of it, the broadcast coverage, working with the obs, working with wbt, wbtf as it was then working with um, all the interested parties and everything.
Herb Perez:So I think the biggest challenge olympic games is just the scale of the event so was there anything in particular that you can remember that caused you to have um?
Michael Mckenzie:something that you thought you couldn't solve and then you ended up solving. Well, about eight weeks before the games itself, um, the sport manager, um, a guy called andrew link, who'd done a lot of planning and preparations for the game, stepped away from the role. Even to this day, I can't tell you why. I don't know the details. So I was left in charge of running the Olympic Games as technical operations manager and as the sport manager, eight weeks before the Games actually was due to start. The biggest challenge was due to start the um. The biggest challenge was, at that time, keeping wt, you know, keeping all the vested interest parties satisfied that I could actually do both roles this leads me into my next question because I think the fundamental.
Herb Perez:I'm sorry for my distraction, my my daughter's. I had to grab my daughter's real life. The Quest Taekwondo has produced several Great Britain Performance Program athletes. How does your club foster such talent and what sets you apart from other Taekwondo centers?
Michael Mckenzie:I think we two of the kids that were now in the programme actually started another Take 1 at our clubs and then came to me, because I created, you know, as cadets I'm talking about, but we created a pathway, we put the. It's, like I said earlier, it's doing the right training, being up to date with the training, competing regularly both home, home and abroad, and um taking, presenting them with opportunities, um, working on things like sponsorship, raising their media profile, all of these sort of things, um, it's just doing the right things. You know. So we had you know, we've had the um. It's knowing what the right things are as well, though, and that's the thing, because nobody tells you, when you open a taekwondo school, that actually, to get an Olympic athlete, yes, you need to have somebody with talent and skill, but they actually need to be on this competition circuit, they need to experience against these guys, and it's like you can be. I don't know if it's a, I'm sure it will be the same. In the States, there's a lot of big fish in very small ponds, you know, and you are trying to. They are trying to. You know, hold on to everything, and what you've got first to do if you've got talented athletes is you've got to say, look, it's here, you've got to go, we've got to get it from everywhere. And it it's like I am not the font of all knowledge, I will give you opportunities, I will give you um possibilities, but then we will take it from other places. But you know we have. We have a um saying that this is going to sound completely opposite of what I've just said. Um, there's a mantra by the the players actually came up with years ago, and the first one is again it it's American influences. In Mike we Trust.
Michael Mckenzie:And we had some players who had traveled with a different coach to a competition in Europe and they weren't able to compete because of administration stuff. And one of my athletes was with them and they were at the end of the wits end. They thought I'm not going to be able to participate in this competition. So he phoned me and I said look, whoever's the most important guy in the room, give him the phone and let me speak to him. And two minutes later you know they're in the competition and to my plate, you know. The other guy said to him I don't know how you've done this, and he said it might be trust. So that's rule number one.
Michael Mckenzie:Rule number two is Mike's always right, okay, which is completely different to everything I've just said. And but rule number three I'll explain it and basically I'll never say when I'm coaching, I'll never say one. I'm going to keep them happy and healthy, that's the main thing is safe. But you, you know, usually I'm right with what I say, so if it's happy for them to think I'm always right. But rule number three is Mike's right even when he's wrong. So basically, okay, I want, if I tell them some, let's say, if I say, oh no, come off the back leg, and they do it, but without conviction, then they get countered. You know, they've suffered, maybe they've got hit and got three points against and whatever you for doing what I've said, but they didn't do it right, so it's them.
Michael Mckenzie:So, um, these are sort of it's sort of a semi-joke and everything. And then you know you get to the stage where some of your players are saying to you you know, what should I do or how should I be with this one it's like, just hey, don't be crap. You know, you know, and it says and that becomes a joke as well hashtag, dbc. And then you know, hashtag was not crap, this sort of thing. So it's having a little bit of fun with it as well and connecting with them uh, connecting with your athletes and how you know. Basically they've got to have faith in you, but a lot of that faith is down to you want their best interest. You've got their best interest at heart and I think that's true.
Herb Perez:I had, I remember, coaches. You know I had a lot of challenging coaches, but I had one particular coach. I watched him coach one of my friends and he sits the guy down in the chair and he goes kick, punch, win. And I'm thinking to myself yeah, I got that part, you got any idea how. But you know, I've had some very interesting coaches. I was lucky, you know. I learned how to self-coach myself. But I give credit to all my coaches who sat in my chair, regardless of the outcomes. But you're right. You know, as coaches we need to believe we're right.
Michael Mckenzie:Our athletes need to believe we're right, despite the outcome. Great Athletes are capable of being in that chair. It doesn't matter who's in that chair, whether it's me or somebody else. They have to know their own game plans, they have to know what their strengths and weaknesses are and they need to be confident in the ring. I can remember as a kid going to a competition and you know I was in a really tough match and I came back to my coach and said what I need to do and he said I have no idea. I don't know. Can I have a drink? No, I forgot to bring water, you know. So it's like okay, does my hair look nice? You know this little thing? There's nothing. You know. That was historically. You know as bad as it got. So and it wasn't. He was a really nice guy, don't get me wrong, but he forced into that chair and he should never have been there.
Herb Perez:Um, and that's again why I try and create a team of coaches rather than, you know, just being myself I'll leave you with one final story, and this is a famous coach from the us and he's coaching one of my friends and my friends fighting in his first world collegiate championship. Mike Kim is his name and the coach is Sang-Chul Lee. So Mike is fighting the Korean guy and he's like, oh my gosh man, this guy's crazy fast. And oh man, I just hope I can survive this first round and let me get through this round, because then I'll get back to the chair and Master Lee, coach Lee will definitely know what I should do. So he kind of gets through the first round and he's, all you know, reclamped and he looks at coach and he goes. Coach looks at him and goes oh my God, he's so fast and he's strong. What are you going to do?
Herb Perez:And I love that story because, first, it's Mike Kim and, second of all, we've all been in that situation. Well, listen, you've been involved in hosting numerous national and international championships. What goes into organizing such events and what are the key ingredients for creating successful and memorable competitions?
Michael Mckenzie:Well, when I was a kid, a young man, I organized some of the worst competitions I've ever been to, so over over ambitious, with grade divisions and things like this. So first of all, you learn from your mistakes, but really it's planning and preparation. It's simple as that. The planning and preparation surround yourself with a good team, because if you're working by yourself, you'll end up. End up, you know, just running about like a headless chicken. So it's have a good team around you. Plan, prepare and um, I was once at a boa meeting and it's like prepare for the. You know, manage the what-ifs. Okay, control the controllables and manage the what-ifs. The what-ifs is what if this happens? What if that happens? So management is managing the what-ifs, but control what-ifs is what if this happens? What if that happens? So management is managing the what-ifs, but control everything that you can do. So I think that's an important lesson that I learned quite young.
Michael Mckenzie:And then, basically always, whatever you're doing, demonstrate your passion and enthusiasm for it. You know, I sometimes see people at Taekwondo events and it's like hey, do you really want to be there? You know it's like, hey, do you really want to be there? You know it's like you know, okay, I'm not a barrel of laughs and smiles. I'm not outgoingly you know, too outgoing friendly person at competitions, like to focus on what I'm doing. But you know, um, I like, I like take honor, I like to be there, enjoy it and if it's an event, get out there, you know, and show that you're enjoying it and that you want to try and help people. You want to try and give the spectators the best experience. You want to give the athletes the best experience. The coaches, you know. The officials, you know we we have lots of issues, like every country does, with the officials sometimes not being good enough, sometimes being overworked, and you know been at too too many events. So I try and look after the officials as well and you know, I think that's quite important demonstrating enthusiasm and try and look.
Michael Mckenzie:You know, try and look at things from other people's point of view. You know I've been, you know, a parent as a taekwondoist. I've been an athlete, I've been a coach, I've been the referee, I've been the event organizer. You know I've been the referee, I've been the event organizer. You know I've been the guy that stood on the doors and the weigh-ins and things. So I know what it's like in virtually every scenario.
Michael Mckenzie:So it's basically when somebody comes at you with a question, go at it from okay, try and see it from their point of view, but then try and don't try and sell them the bigger picture, because none of those people want to see the bigger picture. You, when you are coaching right, you're bothered about your athletes, you're bothered about your time and getting on and off the ring. So anything that I say to you is that, hey, look, I need you to go over here now because you're not going to be, because the schedule will work better if you do that. You know you're not interested in that. You want the best for your athletes. So I've got, I understand that and take that into consideration. But at the same time sometimes it will be you need to be over there now, you know, and you have to use the authority sometimes well it's going to bring me.
Herb Perez:You know I want to transition. We we have both served in various governance boards um within our countries and then outside of our countries and on a bigger world stage. What are the biggest challenges and opportunities you've encountered in Taekwondo governance?
Michael Mckenzie:I think that Taekwondo is moving forwards. I think that we we were struck you know, I look at it from an Olympic point of view, from you guys being in the demonstration sports eras, and we've sort of there was the Korean dominance that had an effect there and they put in a system where a selection system where you got continental selections to try and even out the representation, so one country wasn't dominating too much. And we also, from a Taekwondo point of view, we're a transition sport. We fit in you know, we only have 128 players, four days of competition. We fit in behind fencing and before boccia, as in London, or something like that. So the thing that I would like to see more is a Taekwondo program being expanded in Olympic Games so that we're not, you know, right, and the selection system changing. This is a lot of this is from a a gb quest. Take on our point of view, because I've got an athlete that is, you know, in minus 57 kilograms females, one of the top athletes in the world, a constant medal, a podium winning medalist, um, from the age of 16 um onwards, and she's not going to the Games Now. As an athlete. She has defeated players in the 57-kilogram category and the 67, and the plus 67. So if you're top in the world, if you're in the top 10 in the world and this is actually in Korea, it's true in lots of countries we've got the best players.
Michael Mckenzie:I think a lot of us agree that taekwondo to get into the Olympics is one of the hardest things to do. You've got the best play. I think a lot of us agree that taekwondo to get into the Olympics is one of the hardest things to do. But when you're actually there, it's not necessarily the toughest competition because in the traditional sense of the competition, because you don't have all the best world athletes there, you know the top players are not all represented there. There's not enough places. You know we are a sport where we have eight weight categories for men and eight weight categories for women and yet when we go to our showpiece event, we're cut, is cut in half, you know. So I think the thing that I would most like to see is an expansion of the olympic program I think that's a.
Herb Perez:I think that's a great point, and it's always been um. I've been involved in various um crafting of selection processes, whether it's always been. I've been involved in various crafting of selection processes, whether it's domestically here in the States or on the international stage, and then, having worked with the IOC in creating an understanding of what would be possible for taekwondo, for other sports, I understand what you're saying and it will continue to be a challenge. And then you fundamentally have to ask yourself how do you want to balance inclusivity and what some would posit as a continual inclusion of the sport in the games with excellence, and I'm I'm a meritocracy guy. I would much rather have the 16 best. I want to face the 16 best players in the world.
Herb Perez:I don't want to face somebody from um and no dig on anyone, in particular oceana, that has two or three countries to compete against and they get a spot because they're from oceana and he's my first match. So that's a wasted match in my opinion, but I I don't want to. We're going to have a. I'm going to invite you back for a longer conversation about these sorts of topics, along with dr capner and a handful of others that are passionate about what I would call future casting of where we find ourselves, but you've been recognized as coach of the year, which makes you one of the most effective leaders in the sports world. What advice would you give to coaches and mentors um that are leading and trying to lead?
Michael Mckenzie:um, well, my coaching award was quite a few years ago and it was a, you know, it's a regional one. Um, I don't claim to be, um a brilliant coach. However, I was a coach tutor for a long time for British Taekwondo. I'd say just, first of all, study, study Taekwondo, you know. Read as much as you can look at it from different people's point of view. The internet is amazing. Now there's so many, you know, you can be watching matches, look at other people, see what's happening on the bigger field and then experience as much as possible.
Michael Mckenzie:If you want to be an international, if you want international success, you've got to be on the international circuit. And it's to be truthful, we've got one of the strongest, you know, continental regions in the world and that's because we can travel to different countries quite easily. You know, I can fly over to the netherlands and then drive to belgium or germany quite comfortably, germany quite comfortable, get on the train and we're the most isolated island, if you like nation, in Europe. It's easy for the you know, the mainland Europeans. So I think first of all, it's it's you know.
Michael Mckenzie:Open your eyes to the bigger picture and then learn, and don't be scared of learning. Take, try and take influences from different people. You're not going to get it from just from one source. And finally, don't take what people say at face value. You know everybody has their own agenda that they're working towards. You know which is hopefully the best performances, the best opportunities for their players or to grow their organisation or whatever. You know, and it's basically you know. When you tell your athletes if they go and train somewhere else, if they have to go somewhere else as part of a squad or things, is that listen, be polite, be respectful, be open minded. Take what's useful, bring it back, and if it's useful, I'll take it as well and just keep on learning. We're, first and foremost, students of Taekwondo, whatever your role, whatever your grade.
Herb Perez:Yeah, great point. We need to be and we are. We try to be perpetual students ourselves and we instill that we should be showing our athletes and, quite frankly, our contemporaries, what is necessary, and that I hear in everything that you've said today. But we're going to transition to outside of taekwondo um, just because I think that too many people think that that's pretty much all we do. You have some other interests that you like, and could you share some of your outside hobbies that you think complement your work and personal life?
Michael Mckenzie:um.
Michael Mckenzie:First one is kickboxing and um. Two reasons for this. First of all, I'm from, like I said I've told you before, way back before my take on her days I did boxing um, and my dad was a keen amateur boxer and um, so I've always liked the hands and one of the criticisms that people that don't know take onwondo say, oh, you can't punch, and it's like well, I could always punch. So the concept of not being able to punch always irritates me. So that's why I got a slight interest in kickboxing there. But the real reason I got into it was that I was training before I got my full-time taekwondo centers. I was training in a sports hall and half the sports hall was taekwondo and half the sports hall was badminton. Now the badminton club closed down and the sports center manager, in his wisdom, put a kickboxing club in at the same time as mine, but the door was at his curtain. So everybody, all my inquiries were going to this kickboxing club. So I really hated this kickboxing club that was going on at the same time as my taekwondo club. Um, but I could hear what he was saying. I thought this guy actually is pretty impressive. I like what he's saying, so I'm listening, I'm teaching a taekwondo class here, but I'm listening to this kickboxing guy there and I'm really impressed by what he's saying. So when I opened my first taekwondo center, my first martial arts center, I said to him look, do you want to come with me? I don't want to just do taekwondo all the time. Do you want to come and have a club with me and he with me? And he said, yeah, let's do it. Because he hated the sports center managers too. And we ended up becoming good friends a guy called christian, some peers. We became good friends and I started training with him, um, and then eventually I became the instructor in the center as well, because he was so busy with the international events that he was doing and things. So that's how I got into kickboxing, um, so it's not that different to taekwondo, um, I find that sometimes people, you know kickboxing does what it says on the tin. You know it's boxing with kicks involved with it and it's an easier sell. But I do enjoy, I do hit and I do enjoy like hitting the bags, and I do enjoy sparring, and you know it's um. You know taekwondo is always. I'm always instructing, I'm always coaching. The kickboxing gives me a way of training myself.
Michael Mckenzie:And then the other thing that I like to do is the cinema. I go to the cinema quite a lot. I think I've got the mental age of a 12 year old regarding cinema. I'm a big Star Wars fan and all the science fiction things, and I think maybe I didn't want to be a take-home master, maybe I wanted to be a Jedi master, you know. So I love cinema, I love all aspects of cinema. It's just pure escapism, you know. I don't really. You know, as a kid cinema was. You know, going to cinema was a treat with your parents. I remember going to see Star Wars in 1977 when it first came out, and things. So I just think it's wonderful escapism. So those are my main things over in my family and my dogs.
Herb Perez:We were separated at birth and I trained with one of the best arguably the best kickboxer ever in the world, sifu Paul Vizio just an amazing individual. He's responsible for my Olympic success, and I say that every chance I get. And then my second passion and I was known as a Jedi when I was coming up is I love science fiction and specifically that particular thing. But I'm going to give you one last question, and again I'm going to invite you back for that thing we talked about, which was the longer symposium, and we're actually working on hosting this in Korea as well. But if you could change one thing about the world of taekwondo today, what would it be and why?
Michael Mckenzie:Good question. I think that we. It's not a specific thing. The thing is that I think that I live by. Somebody once told me the more cake there is on the table, the more there is for everybody. And I think that the problem in the Taekwondo community is two problems. One, people are very tribal and try and keep things under control all the time in their organization, their network, and that's detrimental to development of the world sport, and that's a national, continental and world level. You know it's the more cake that's on the table, the more there is for everybody. Um, so I think that is one of the big issues, um, and then I think it's we don't celebrate the product that we have got.
Michael Mckenzie:You know, um, just sidetracking slightly, I once did a um a media presentation at a european olympic selection event and I got a guy to stand up and I was in a suit and tie and I kicked the cigarette. I said the guy got a box of cigarettes on the table. He was a foreign um, he wasn't smoking it, and I put a cigarette in his mouth. I told him to put a cigarette in his mouth and I kicked it and I'm dressed in a suit and I kicked the cigarette out of his mouth. Everybody in the room, the old journalists and all the ooh, ooh, ooh and I said, look, that's one kick, that's exciting. No, you've all got excited, you've all reacted to this. When I take you downstairs, downstairs and the olympic qualification events going on, there'll be lots of kicks going on, there'll be lots of excitement. It's up to you as journalists and as reporters to report on the excitement of the individual actions.
Michael Mckenzie:So I think that we've got um an amazing product that we don't really value ourselves enough. And again, partly because people are tribal and trying to hold on to things you know we haven't been able to um connect with like the media, like the movies. You know we haven't been able to connect with like the media, like the movies, you know all these sort of things. You know we haven't done that enough in Taekwondo. So I think that that's that's one thing that's got to change, a mindset's got to change that this doesn't belong to us. This is the world of Taekwondo, is everybody's, and you know we might not agree with the people, we might not like the people, you know we might really dislike the people, but you know they are, you know we are a world taekwondo family and I think those are.
Herb Perez:I think, yeah, those are great words and I and I I couldn't agree more. Um, for me, you know, when I come away from these podcasts, I'm always um humbled by the opinions I get of the people that are on, but, more importantly, I get some great, um, new knowledge and then great things to take away, and that's certainly going to be one of my takeaways. Um, I'll leave you with, uh, one comment that was made by one of my good friends who, um, you know, john Holloway, I believe, and John said uh, his instructor said to him taekwondo is for everyone. However, not everyone is for taekwondo, and I thought it was great. Well, master McKenzie, I want to thank you.
Herb Perez:Today you have been, as expected, just an amazing guest, and I want to thank you for taking out the time and um, and especially in light of the fact of england's latest win on five penalty kicks in a row, and I was convinced that they were going to miss one or the other guys were going to at least block one, but um, I look forward to seeing you shortly. Will you be going to paris?
Michael Mckenzie:um, I don't have any role in Paris, but I think I will probably be over there as a spectator and supporter.
Herb Perez:Yeah, well enjoy it and we'll catch back up with you on that.
Herb Perez:But again, on behalf of the Masters Alliance podcast, I want to thank you for your time today, sir no, thank you very much, really enjoyed it, thank you well, as I told you, that was going to be a terrific podcast with an amazing individual who has nothing but passion for this martial art and sport we do. I was surprised at how much we had in common and how similar our lives were in our path and our choice of service. Choice of service, master Michael McKenzie, is a tribute to what is possible if you set your mind to something and choose to accomplish it, using your passion and your expertise to help others be better than they thought they ever could be. Great Britain is lucky to have him, but I am lucky to call him a colleague and a friend, someone who will stand as a testament to what Taekwondo should be, can be and will be if you allow it to be for yourself. This has been a Masters Alliance podcast on Cut. I'm Herb Perez and check out our other podcast and my new book, one Champion's Pathway, available on Amazon.