Masters Alliance
9th Dan BlackBelt and Olympic Gold Medalist Herb Perez visit with the best and brightest to bring clarity to the future of Martial arts.
Masters Alliance
Dr. Harvey Schiller: Revolutionizing Sports Management through Technology, Leadership, and Mentorship
Discover how cutting-edge technology and financial dynamics are reshaping collegiate and professional sports in our special episode featuring the legendary Dr. Harvey Schiller. We explore how streaming services, artificial intelligence, and sponsorship deals are revolutionizing the sports industry, impacting everything from negotiations to athlete performance. Dr. Schiller provides a deep dive into the implications for young athletes and the broader sports ecosystem, offering listeners a rare glimpse into the future of sport management.
Experience the transformative power of military-inspired leadership in sports management through compelling stories from the Barcelona Olympics and other iconic events. Dr. Schiller offers profound insights into how accountability, civility, and ethics are paramount in sports leadership. We reflect on the timeless Olympic spirit, the drive for personal excellence, and the evolving landscape of athlete behavior and leadership, demonstrating the invaluable lessons that sports can teach about national pride and personal honor.
Transitioning from a sports career to a regular profession is fraught with challenges, and we tackle this issue head-on. Dr. Schiller discusses the critical role of mentorship and support systems in guiding athletes through this difficult period. The conversation extends to the creation of the YES Network, the shift towards direct-to-consumer streaming services, and the complexities of sports media in the digital age. Personal anecdotes, such as those involving Michael Jordan and the Reebok uniform controversy, provide a rich backdrop for Dr. Schiller's reflections on leadership, mentorship, and the essential qualities needed to thrive in the sports industry and beyond.
Welcome to the Masters Alliance podcast. Uncut. I am Herb Perez. Today I am joined by one of the most influential men I know in modern sport. He recreated several organizations. He serves as a mentor to many young professionals, including me. Over the years I've had the great honor to call him a friend. Dr Harvey Schiller will share his thoughts on life, sport, but, more importantly, on how we can mentor a future generation for success. So strap in. This is going to be an amazing podcast, as always. Welcome to the Masters Alliance podcast. I'm Herb Perez and today we're joined by Dr Harvey Schiller, and Dr Schiller is, and continues to be, one of the most influential people in business and in sport. Thank you for coming in today, dr Schiller.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:Thank you for having me. You're a great friend and I appreciate the time together.
Herb Perez:Oh, you're too kind. I know you are being kind, but I always appreciated that about you. Listen, you've had a long and distinguished career in sport and sport management started with the Southern Eastern Conference and it's led to your current role as CEO of Goal Acquisitions. How have the challenges and the rewards of sport management changed over the years, and what key lessons have you learned along the way?
Dr. Harvey Schiller:Oh man, that'll take a couple of weeks to answer, but first let me. Let me go back a little bit. So I actually started to get involved at the higher level of sport when I was in the Air Force, at the Air Force Academy. So I was their representative to the NCAA and I sat on the NCAA executive committee and that was when you compare the way intercollegiate sports were managed some 30, 40 years ago compared to today. You really can't compare them because of the money that's coming through different ways, not just to the student-athlete but to the programs themselves at the intercollegiate level and at the pro level.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:I just saw something which showed that the top 20 Olympic athletes that will participate in Paris have a collective income of over $8 billion. Of course it starts with Graham, who's a golfer, who makes anywhere between $200 and $600 million a year, and of course the basketball players are all in that soccer players. So the numbers are pretty dramatic in terms of how people are compensated for participating in sports. So the expectations of young people, starting at even at high school, is that they want a piece of the pie and just getting a championship trophy, as existed when I first started, you know, to be the national champion in wrestling or or football or basketball, that doesn't matter anymore. It's all about how much you're going to be compensated. So you have to be what you and I would call a disruptor. You have to be somebody who says I don't care what happened in the past. We're going forward in a new direction and I think that's the biggest change that has happened year to year and will continue to change.
Herb Perez:I mean and that's a great point I remember when I was on the US Olympic Committee Board of Directors and you were certainly leading it there were some rumblings about it back then and the transition certainly has changed it to a great degree allows those young athletes that are in sports, that are in high profile sports comes from those sponsorships, and so as you dilute that and you expand it, does it have an impact upon the services that those young athletes who won't realize those huge paydays get?
Dr. Harvey Schiller:Well, I think it already has. You know the various divisions in intercollegiate sports is a start. So the major conferences, which are the Southeastern Conference, the Atlanta Coast Conference, the Big Ten and the Big 12, you can't really compare their budgets to a Division II and III school like Georgetown or one of the others. So this last year the Southeastern Conference distributed about $65 million to each school. For schools like Mississippi State and Mississippi that's all they need to spend. But I think the future is going to hold. If a student athlete is making several million dollars a year, I think the school is going to expect to get a piece of that. Maybe, instead of giving whatever they do in terms of free medical care and other things, maybe there's another way for the school to to re realize some of the compensation that the individual student athlete has. But you know it, you, you know better than me. There's no such word as amateurism anymore.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:I mean that has disappeared in the major sport events that we think about In today's news. One of my previous jobs was working at Turner Broadcasting and when I was there we had the NBA on two of our networks, TNT and TBS. Yesterday the NBA said they weren't going to expect the bid to match on the part of what now is Discovery, because they wanted to have a streaming distribution with Amazon. So the technical parts have changed things in such a way that the realization is that people are not watching traditional television. They want something that's handheld, and if it's handheld, it has to be some level of streaming so you can watch your Amazon or Prime or anything like that, no matter where you are, Unless it's geogated, you know, and you're in Europe, or something like that.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:So I think that the way people negotiate now is different than the way they negotiated in the past, because they're going to have to be aware of new technology. They're going to have to be aware of artificial intelligence. You know, if you're a coach, you're going to depend upon artificial intelligence for your play calling as an individual athlete. I think you're going to do. You're going to look, you think about your sport as an individual athlete. I think you're going to do. You're going to look, you think about your sport. You're going to overanalyze your opponent to such to find the weak points and against your strengths.
Herb Perez:And you're going to know more about that athlete than they probably know about themselves. And I think that's a great point. And there are a lot of people saying exactly what you're saying now is especially business investors. You're saying, invest in the small screen. The smaller, smaller the screen, the more likely there is for it to be used, um and and and be profitable to be frankly. So, be frank. So some of these um, large movie things and stuff, if they're not shaping them down, and cobra kai is a great example of that.
Herb Perez:I've watched the first episode of season uh six with my son and it's the last season, but I was surprised at, first of all, the level of production but, more importantly, the level of impact it's had. And that was a dead and dying franchise. I tried to play the first one for my kids in my school and the kids were like they had no interest, and now this thing has just blown up. But I want to transition for a minute, cause we're going to get back to all of that, because I want to talk about your time at the New York Yankee Nets. But you have a distinguished career which included Vietnam and flying multiple sorties over that, and then you have the distinguished flying cross, and it was certainly one of the most impressive things about your resume. How did your military experience shape your leadership style and your approach to decision-making in the sports world?
Dr. Harvey Schiller:Complex question, complex answer One of the things that you don't realize at the time. But when you're in a combat situation, you have a chance to test your courage under fire and I think that's a gift, so that when you're in a very stressful situation, that inherent part of courage, that's part of you comes to play and I think that you are not really intimidated by the other side that's negotiating or that's testing you or whatever they're doing, and you try to think of ways to go around it. Now I'll give you a small example. When we were in Barcelona, one of the track and field athletes for the United States, when they were on the victory stand, put on a cap from an NFL franchise that they were drafted to. So it was an embarrassing situation when the flag is risen and anthem is played and here's this guy sitting with an NFL cap on his head. So the coach was apologetic and he came to see me with the track and field athlete and said how apologetic they were.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:And I was trying to think of a way to impress the athlete of what they did. And I said do you speak Spanish? He said no. I said well, what are you going to do when you live in Spain. He says what are you talking about? I said well, you are you going to do when you live in Spain? He says what are you talking about? I said, well, you're not getting your passport back. And he said what do you mean? I said, well, you embarrassed the United States, so you gave me a passport when you got here. I don't think I should give it back to you. Of course, the conversation ended in a hurry. The point I'm making is I was thinking at the time that, years before I was defending the flag and at this particular point, here was somebody embarrassing it, and my position was that you had to be, you had to think of yourself not just as an athlete who won a medal, but as somebody who represented the United States in the flag.
Herb Perez:I think that yeah, no, it does, and it was something that I remembered, certainly, about our interactions and in the large group interactions you always had with us as Olympic team members, members, on the way out, literally on the opening of us leaving to go to Spain, there were the opening conversations which reminded us that we were representatives of the United States. We shouldn't embarrass ourselves. And then, secondly, listen, most of us were going to just come home with the warmups and the memories. So take time to relish that and enjoy it. And, and I think that those I I recount those stories to the people that I meet now and I have certainly been um privy to some of your leadership styles, um, throughout the years, and I thought you always did that. I thought you always were found a way to make it personal for that particular situation and make it, more importantly, impactful, and we're going to talk about that.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:I appreciate it. I think you know people have different expectations now. So what would you do today? What would if I was in the position of the CEO of the Olympic committee in Paris and somebody did something really embarrassing on the victory stand? I'm not sure how I would react at this point, because we tend to be more tolerant of behavior of our people and you know the various protests that go on across the nation, especially now with what's going on in the Middle East. I don't know. My position probably would be let it ride and sit on the shoulders of the person who embarrassed themselves and not bring it to a bigger audience.
Herb Perez:And I think that makes some sense and we had talked offline a little bit about this. The times have changed and the expectations, and I think there's some good to that, but I do think there's still. I think there's a value to what I don't want to call it the old school, because I think it's always been. I think there is some value to accountability, civility and ethics and morals and I think that you have to balance this.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:You remember Al Orr yes, sir, and he won four gold medals in discus. And he said the first time he made the Olympic team, the most important thing to him was wearing the uniform and marching on the field. And the second time he tried to throw the discus and beat the enemy, who were the East Germans and the Russians. And then he said to me that the third time he made the Olympic team he said why don't I just try to throw it as far as I can? Why am I limited by the competition? And I think that's a good story, because I think most of the people that will march and get on the field in Paris are probably thinking how great this is, I'm wearing a uniform, and then it'll take a while before they realize that they're there to perform to their best. Whatever that may be, I know you've had that feeling yourself.
Herb Perez:It's a great point and I think that you know, one of the things that I've always valued about the Olympic experience is there are, and there shouldn't be, a division based on a politic nationality, and I don't remember feeling that there was when I competed back in 92. And I don't remember feeling that there was when I competed back in 92. And then, more importantly, I did want to do the best I could do and I celebrated the success of others when I went to the games and I watched virtually any game if US was in it, of course I cheered for the US and hoped and wished for the best, but I watched the finals of anything just to see the best be the best they could be, and I think that that's what the Olympics should be about.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:But yet when I speak to athletes professional, collegiate or Olympic they always feel that they could have done better, even even if, even if they've achieved the highest, they've broken a world record. Good example is Dan Jansen. I was with him when he set a world record in speed skating, but it wasn't enough for him. And you know the problems that some of our swimmers have when they win multiple gold medals and they're saying there's got to be something more. And maybe it's not athletics, maybe it's something else in their life that they have to achieve else in their life that they have to achieve.
Herb Perez:Well, that's a great point. I mean, I've always looked at the sport as a microcosm of the macrocosm of life, and I think that that's one of the differences between great champions they're always looking for the next goal. The goal of winning a medal is a medal, and then they look to move. And you've you know, we've talked about this before you you've mentored some great athletes and they've gone on to great careers in business and entrepreneurism, whatever it is, and I think that you probably found a quality in those individuals. And then you've worked with you know, listen, you've worked with Olympians, you've worked with the NHL, you've worked with the MLB and I mean, can you share some of your insights into the unique challenges of working with those different levels from amateur and professional sports?
Dr. Harvey Schiller:Well, there are a lot of examples, but one of the things that everybody has to understand who's with their professional or amateur athlete, collegiate or Olympian is that work as defined, supporting business or whatever it is is a different challenge, and I've had many Olympians come to me and say I want to work at the US Olympic Committee and I said tell me about your day.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:Oh, I wake up, I work out, I have breakfast, I take a nap. I work out again. I have lunch, I take a nap. I said have you ever worked 40 hours a week, having to go to an office, travel an hour to get there and sit around until 5 o'clock in the afternoon? I said no. I said when you can do that for three months I'll hire you. I've never had a single Olympic athlete come back.
Herb Perez:Really, I didn't know the bar was that low, I could do that.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:To you and me that's simple yeah. But to someone who's spent their whole life competing and training, it's a different challenge. And there are those who go back and do more schooling or like law school or business school and others, and understand it all, and when COVID and other challenges occur they can react to that. But it has to have something. You know, the best basketball players coming out of the college who don't get drafted by the NBA Don't know what to do. They have to be mentored in some way. They have to be helped along, they have to be, they have to. They were going to meet new challenges and I just finished spending the weekend at the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown. These are some of the greatest athletes in the history of sport. Now some get jobs in broadcasting, but some are always looking.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:What can I do? I'm not going to. You know I'm not. I'm 40 something years old the young ones. I can't throw a 95 mile an hour fastball anymore, as as Goose College said to me on Saturday. He said the only place I know to go to is the mound. I, when the, when the when the manager said go out there, goose. I went out there, but my walk was between the dugout and the mound. Now you're telling me I have to make a living or I have to go somewhere else and believe it or not. That's not so easy for me.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:So we have to help these people and there are people who are doing that, are mentoring and supporting, and there are people who are doing that are mentoring and supporting, and I think the biggest challenge will be to find enough people that can help the individual that's getting the NIL money and is making millions of dollars while they're still an intercollegiate athlete and doesn't make the NBA or the NFL. Yeah, they'll have enough money to live pretty comfortably, but what are they going to do all day?
Herb Perez:I think that's a profound insight. It's interesting because as an athlete at least from a mediocre television viewership sponsorship sport I realized early on that I wasn't going to be able to use my sport to go be a professional. So when I as soon as the Olympic games were over, you know, I came back and did my proper type of education, got into the world and decided to make a living for myself.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:You lived the American dream. Yeah, where you came from and where you've arrived and where tomorrow may be, is what America is a lot that's. That's the house that you live in, that America gives you and and I think, luckily we've see more and more people doing that but you don't want to be held back by anyone to do that. But you know, and it's just not financial security. I was at a seminar and I heard that he said this outwardly. The surgeon general of the United States said the best thing you can do to have a happy life is to have relationships. He said, as you age, not having relationships will affect your health as much as smoking 14 or 15 cigarettes a day.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:So we need that physical interaction, that you know how many people are working at home now and are not actually speaking to people, they're not getting trained and they are not actually not getting promoted the way they should, because they're never in an office environment and you know sitting with a laptop at home in a more leisurely type environment and you know sitting with a laptop at home in a more leisurely type environment, and I think we're going to pay a price for that for a lot of people, or they are going to pay a price for that.
Herb Perez:I believe that to be true. I think the kids, certainly the kids growing up, you know my, my children are fortunate. They, they, they go to school, they do sport, they come home, they go and rinse and repeat, so they get a fair amount of they're not big screen time kids and all that kind of stuff. But that's in part the way we raise them. But I see a lot of children in my business and I see them. The biggest battle parents have is that idea of where they spend their time and how they socialize. Parents have is that idea of where they spend their time and how they socialize. And it was exacerbated by COVID and the impact that I see on kids, certainly, and I think that's profound. But I want to transition now to the creation of the YES Network under your leadership. It was a groundbreaking moment in sport and broadcasting. What inspired you to pursue that venture? And then, how do you see the future of sport media evolving in this digital age?
Dr. Harvey Schiller:Well, two different questions, but getting back to Yetz, so George Steinberg of the Yankees was a close friend and I was working in the cable business with Turner Broadcasting and I realized that there was not the opportunity for the team to benefit from their large fan base in a direct manner. So when you're in the cable business or even in the streaming business, you have a direct payment system between you and the fan. So when the NBA is on Amazon, you're going to pay, use your credit card to pay Amazon and in turn, that money is going to be paid as a rights fee to the NBA and others who would join in. So I had these conversations with George and George had a significant offer from Cablevision to buy the team and I said that's not your future. Your future is two things creating two things at the same time. One is a winning franchise the Yankees and the other is a winning business time. One is a winning franchise the Yankees and the other is a winning business. And the winning business is your cable distribution or your television, your viewing distribution that you own. They're two separate entities. I said it's like owning two apartment houses One is the team, the other is your cable business.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:So we went forward and we had to enter into litigation with Cablevision because they had certain rights as regards not just the Yankees but the Devils and the Nets, the hockey and basketball teams. We were able to prevail in the courts, in the arbitration and mediation, and had the right to create our own network. However, who was going to broadcast it? So you had to use a relationship that you had with at that time was Time Warner Cable and said okay, if we give you exclusivity to Yankee games in the home market, how much would you pay us? How much would you pay a subscriber? And they said somewhere around $2 or $2.25. And I said okay, if you run the numbers, you're building a multi-billion dollar company, and that's without advertising or sponsorship or anything else. So it took about a year and a half a good two years to convince everyone that sat on the board of Yankeeness that that's the way to go. And now it's a four point something billion dollar business, but it's not owned by the team. It's owned by investors, which include the largest, who is the Steinbrenner family. So I think it prevailed in a good way. However, what you didn't have and what Turner is losing with the NBA now is years of a relationship that end and that's what's happened in the media business. It's a new business.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:Streaming services like Amazon are direct-to-consumer and they're bypassing movie theaters and other things and pay-per-view, and there's a constant income that comes from the number of subscribers that are there, and there's a constant income that comes from the number of subscribers that are there. So everyone wants to be in what is a direct-to-consumer business, because you don't want to dilute anything with the middlemen and such. So I hate to think about this. Here's a I hate to think about this. If I had six bottles of Coca-Cola, which add up to a gallon, in front of you, and I had six bottles of water that you can buy anywhere, and I took a gallon of gasoline and broke it up into six bottles, so there's a gallon of Coke, a gallon of water and a gallon of gasoline and broke it up into six bottles, so there's a gallon of coke, a gallon of water and a gallon of gasoline, which is the most expensive.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:The bottled water, the water. Wow, how much is. If you paid a dollar a bottle for water, it'd be $6 a gallon.
Herb Perez:True, true.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:You buy a gallon of gasoline across America it's anywhere between $3 and $4 a gallon. A Coca-Cola is cheaper than I mean is more expensive than a gallon of gas. So how much does it cost to make an ounce of Coca-Cola? It costs about a penny. How much does it cost to make an ounce of Coca-Cola? It costs about a penny. How much does it cost to purify the water? Almost nothing.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:The most expensive to produce is the gasoline, but it's the cheapest. So you know we have three commodities that use different elements of energy and cost, but most of the money is spent in marketing. You need to have gasoline, you don't need to have bottled water, and Coca-Cola is just a treat. The average person who drinks Diet Coke is 56 years old. So what do you do if you're in that business? You're trying to create a direct element between the people that are going to buy the water and your company, and that means that you have to appeal to a greater population, like you're trying to do in television with sports. You're selling them water. It's available for them Cheap to produce. You have a cast of characters. It's not like making movies. Every time you make a movie you've got to pay for them Cheap to produce. You have a cast of characters. It's not like making movies. Every time you make a movie you've got to pay for talent. That's why reality television does so well. You don't have to pay that much for talent.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:So in this particular case we were able to launch the yes Network with being paid by the cable operator about $2 a month, a little more than that per cable subscriber. So if you had a million cable subscribers you actually have more. That's, in a given month you had over a year you're going to have well close to a couple of hundred million dollars of revenue before you sold your first ad. Well close to a couple of hundred million dollars of revenue before you sold your first ad. And of course you can pay the team a lot more. But when you decide to sell the team you still own the network. If you sell the network you still own the team.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:It was a hard message to get across to team owners but they all know it now. They all use the Yankee BS network as an example. The problem is some of them, a lot of them, have gone bankrupt. Now regional television and the reason they probably have is that they never paid much attention to the economics. Paid much attention to the economics and you know they pushed. You need a dedicated audience that says I might not watch it but I have to have it. You know the yes Network only gets a couple hundred thousand people watching each game, even though a few million people subscribe to it. So you know, think about yourself, think about the things you have to have and the things that you marketed, that the people tell you think you need to have, and you know, that's sort of the history of it.
Herb Perez:That's a. You know, it's a hard reality of most membership-based businesses. If everybody showed up at a gym that had a membership, they'd have to close it for the fire marshal.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:I read where 10% you probably know this better than me people who sign up for gym memberships never go to the gym.
Herb Perez:They want to feel like the fear of missing out. I think is what they call it.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:The majority. We're doing the Jane Fonda days. The majority of people bought VHS exercise videos. Never put it in a video machine.
Herb Perez:The majority yeah, that, that, that is true. Well, there's a huge business, as you know, in late night marketing dedicated to the seven minute abs. You know they have a. They have a joke. They had the same joke about boats. And the best day of your life is when you buy a treadmill. The next best day is when you get rid of it because it turns into a hanger for clothes.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:There are a lot of things You're right. There are a lot of things that the saying goes if didn't have it, you wouldn't need it yeah, yeah, you know it, but we're all guilty of playing into the popularity game.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:So I'm getting off on a tangent here, but help me, if you want me to stop, just say shut up. So, um, there are two things that sell something. One is the quality of it. Try to say am I, is it the best thing, the best car, the best is the best time, the best television show? And the second thing that sells is popularity, and popularity is more important than quality. So the different television programs you watch Kardashians wouldn't say that's the best television, but they're more popular than public broadcasting. That has some of the best programs. So if you want to, if your business is training people in different sports taekwondo, martial sports or whatever you want it to be popular that's how you're going to get them into your gym. That's how you're going to get them to the ability to tutor them. So the popularity is more important and you know this because you're competing with other gyms that you know are not worth a damn. You know people are wasting their money going there, but they're popular. It may be who goes there, it may be the setting, it may be a range of things, how they're treated.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:I just had a friend meet. He has an investment company. He played football at Air Force and he was in town for a meeting and I said what is the most important perk that you give to your employees? Harvey's thinking childcare, parking, meals. You know what he said. Culture, who they work with, that's what he said. Culture, who they work with, that's what it is. And and that plays into the popularity game you, who you want to play with, we want to be with, we want as a teammate, we didn't want as an instructor. Why are they popular?
Herb Perez:I think that I think that I think that's true and it resonates with me. I, you know, I always joke. Um, for a while, my uh place where I teach and and teach these kids was called gold medal. And so, um, people would say, well, you know, the reason people come here is, uh, because your reason, you're you, you're, you're, you do well is you want to, you want to go metal at the Olympics. And I go, I said, watch this, and I would turn around, I go. Anybody know why the school is named gold metal and the kids be like it's better than silver metal. And so at the end of the day, once they get in the room, it's about the culture and the service and what you do and your expectations.
Herb Perez:And then you know, I always, I always, I always joke about that and I said you know cause? The second part of that is I said if I had won a silver medal or a Browns medal, what would the name of the school be? They go silver medal. I go Nope, nobody's coming to silver medal called.
Herb Perez:Perez Perez, taekwondo, but uh, hey, listen, you, you're involved in the America's cup and you're certainly uh involved in the international baseball federation and the hall of fame and I know I remember you were president of the IBF and it demonstrates your passion for a variety of sports, not just one. I mean, how do you balance your personal interest with the demands of your professional roles, and what advice would you give to an aspiring sport executive looking to make their mark in the industry?
Dr. Harvey Schiller:First, I'm an easy mark. If you need help, I'm going to help you. So a couple of years ago the team handball people said we need a president. So for a year or two years I became the president. It wasn't my passion, but they needed leadership. So you know, if there's something that needs to be fixed, I like that challenge. Nobody engages me when things are running well. That never happened. What happens is we have something that's worthwhile but it's not going right. It's not right. We need you to help fix it.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:So that was Yankee Nets. They needed to find a better way to deliver that product to their fans. And that was America's Cup. That had real challenges, because every four years you get a new game, new rules and everything else. And that's the way it's been with the Olympic Committee or IBF, or you know, ibf was trying to get on the Olympic schedule. They will be in Los Angeles, they were in Beijing.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:But I think that there's certain people and I think you're one of them who know how to fix things and you're not going to be popular for that, because the odds are you're going to have to and the employment of some people are not performing. You know, and it's just part of what it takes to fix something. So you know, you know the last dance, everybody knows it by now. Michael Jordan, the series on ESPN where you call me a dick. And he called me a dick because they told him he had to wear the Reebok uniform for the award ceremony. I didn't care about him, I cared about the 700 other athletes like you who probably couldn't afford to pay for the warm-up uniform. So it's also interesting that two or three of those team members after the ceremonies became sponsored by Reebok.
Herb Perez:You know, first of all, I'm humbled by your kind words and, uh, I'm nowhere. I, I uh, if I had your skillset of of doing what you do without getting killed. My wife reminded me of this. She says can I ask you a question? And this is everything, including theic board and all that she says is there anything that you've ever been involved in that you've tried to lead or you've led that they haven't killed you or tried to kill you on the way out? And I said no.
Herb Perez:I said but, dr schiller, you, you, you, uh, and in part because of your ability and your uh, your, your political acumen and, more importantly, I mean I've learned more today and just listening to you talk about those two or three topics we've been talking about than I've learned probably in the past year. And I think that that speaks to some of the other things, which includes you've received all these awards for your innovation and your leadership. And just what are the proudest moments of your career and what are some of the goals you still hope to achieve in sport world or in your personal life?
Dr. Harvey Schiller:well I, I think 24 years of service in the air force is proud. I'm proud of that. I'm proud of my family. You know my wife and I have been married over 60 years. I'm proud of the achievements of our children. I like the fact that they're doing better than I ever did, because I think they're better at what they do than I am. I tend to be more mercurial and they tend to be more understanding and I think they're smart. That family pride, I think, is always there. So pride to serve as a country in the Air Force, serve in combat. I'm proud of my doctorate degree in chemistry because it tested me in ways that I have never been tested before and my ability to come up with solutions and analyze them. So you know, that's three or four things that you're proud of I'm. I'm proud of all the people that I've had the ability to mentor and where they are today. You know um. You know charles davis, who remember charles yes I'll use the black turn.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:He's a person. So, charles, how did that happen? Now he's a broadcaster on CBS on the NFL. He's been a broadcaster in the NFL and the Golf Channel for over 20 years.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:So when I was SEC commissioner, I was giving a speech at the University of Tennessee and the athletic director said I have this very bright guy who'll give you a ride to the airport. And it was Charles and that 30-minute ride to the airport. I said you know what? There are better things for you than working as a graduate assistant at Tennessee. He said what do you mean? I said I'm going to bring you into the Southeastern Conference, but I didn't have any money to pay him.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:So I went to Ted Turner and I said I'd like to create an internship in my office for this gentleman and at the same time, I want to create internships at minorities at all of my 10 schools at the time. So I said I need $100,000 a year for the 10 internships, with pay and everything else. I need 75,000 dollars to hire Charles. He said okay, now those 10 people that had internships at the 10 universities half of them have become athletic directors and Charles came to me and he worked at the Olympic committee and then one day he said I want to get back in intercollegiate athletics. So he went and he um, he went and I think he worked at Stanford and then for a while he, he um. When I went to the Olympic committee he worked for me there, but he had other jobs as well. He worked at the uh uh, the Disney ESPN section that they have at Disney world in Florida.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:And that opened the door for him and that opened the door for him in broadcasting. So you know, I I didn't. I never knew one thing about him before, but in a 30 minute conversation I know that he was extremely bright and he just needed a little kick somewhere and I think I'm proud of the several dozen people that have been able to help that way. Jenny Storms, you remember her.
Herb Perez:Sure of course.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:So Jenny now works. She heads up all the marketing for NBC Sports. So Jenny now works, she heads up all the marketing for NBC Sports. So there's people like there, are a bunch like there's you. There's a lot of people that have been able to put successful careers together, because it's not about me, it's about them. You know, they have the fortitude, the intelligence and what people say, now you have to have grit. That's the new word, grit. Work hard at something, keep pounding away, keep grinding to be successful you are.
Herb Perez:You have been influential, and the one thing, um, you know and I don't I won't share you know our, our private conversations. But the one thing you know and I don't I won't share you know our, our private conversations. But the one thing I've always appreciated about you is your honesty but, more importantly, your willingness to have an ear and have an open door to the people around you and help nurture them, and that's you know. As you know, I call you often and uh, and even if it's just a casual conversation to check in. Then there's other times I call you where it's specific and I'm I need some advice because it's something that I'm working on or thinking about, and your discerning ability to understand what it is uh, with little information, and then tell me whether it's valuable and whether I should pursue it.
Herb Perez:I've always appreciated. But I want to transition now into your philanthropic work, and you established the Harvey and Marcia Schiller surgical innovation center and it's truly commendable. But how important is it for you to continue to give back to the community and what motivated you? What to support the cause, like health care and education?
Dr. Harvey Schiller:Well, I think we all have. One of the beauties of being an American is that we believe in philanthropy.
Herb Perez:And.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:I think that we all have an obligation to give what we can, whether it's to your school, to a movement, it's to your school to a movement. But in this particular case, the people that raised money for the medical university. We went to them and said we'd like to make a donation when do you think it would fit? And they said they'd like to create the innovation in surgery. And they hired this surgeon from Pittsburgh, dr Killick, who's a heart transplant surgeon and do I know anything about that? No, but they needed some money to start going.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:Now they're getting grants from the federal government. They've been able to create some businesses around it. It's been very, very successful. The most successful part of it it's been a draw on top surgeons to come to Charleston to work in MUSC because of the Innovation and Surgery Center. So their healthcare is getting better because of the Innovation and Surgery Center. People wanna touch that. They wanna know what's the latest thing to do in innovation. And sometimes the innovation and surgery is not having surgery, so it's whether you need it, how it's done and what's the recovery from it. And they've been very, very good at building a very, very talented group of people working hard to support medicine in the area, but I think you haven't had ways to get back to your school and other things as well.
Herb Perez:So you've been involved in several I mean, I've known some of them and I've been privy to some of it high profile bids for major sporting events, including the Olympics and the America's Cup. What are the key factors to determine the success of those bids or such bids, and what lessons have you learned from both successful and unsuccessful attempts?
Dr. Harvey Schiller:Well, you take advantage of a relationship that pre-existed. That's important. People trust you. Trust is an interesting word, but you can't succeed in any of these environments without trust. Are you going to be able to perform and meet the requirements? And then, whether you like it or not, there is value how much you can pay for something or how much you want to get paid for something, which is a moving target for everything. So, negotiations there's a friend of mine who's now passed.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:Eddie Einhorn was probably the best negotiator I ever met and he said if you think you have power, you have it. If you don't have it, and if you have power and you don't think you have it, you don't have it. So when you go into the negotiations, you have, you have power, you have it. If you don't have it, and if you have power and you don't think you have it, you don't have it. So when you're going to the negotiations, you have to have, you have to have people believe that you're going to respond, you're going to perform and that you're powerful enough that they want to partner with you, they want to be with you. You know, and and that's part of it too, like I said earlier, it's the environment that you're in, that people want to be part of it. Sometimes it's false. People want to be around professional athletes and there's a saying don't get too close to your heroes. They're not that great.
Herb Perez:They're human for sure, right they're?
Dr. Harvey Schiller:human for sure.
Herb Perez:You, I mean, I was fortunate.
Herb Perez:I'd like to believe that I was around and given opportunities at the Olympic level during and post my career in leadership roles that formed me and you were one of those individuals.
Herb Perez:And, having been around that and then had the good fortune to sit on a high strategic planning task force, as a result of Sandra Baldwin and Marty McNamara, with you and some others, you, to be honest, you you had a team of professionals Um, I used to call them the triad and you guys ran and negotiated, and with the IOC and people like this at uh, in a way that no others did, and it was, uh, it was probably the golden years of the Olympic movement, in my opinion.
Herb Perez:Do you see and this wasn't a question I had planned on asking do you see a difference in that period of what I'll call prosperity, both in an athletic sense because the improvement of the team as a whole was a result of your mandates and the way that we looked at sport and the mission that we created as a result of your mandates and the way that we looked at sport and the mission that we created as a result of that um, empowered by the sport act? And now what? What's happening? Um, do you see a difference in that? Is it a just a difference, or is it a better or worse kind of thing?
Dr. Harvey Schiller:I don't think it's different. You know the the expansion of the Olympic program we have break dancing and all sorts of things may not sit well with a lot of people, but those people give them an opportunity to perform. So I think every leader brings something different to the table. Some of the people that are in place now can't do what I did and I can't do what they do, and that's just part of the game.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:You know that you're successful because of who you are. They're successful because of who they are, and events change, people change. You know who would have thought they'd have an opening ceremony on the same river and that sort of crazy stuff. But somebody is unique enough and disruptive enough to say we can do that, and I think the public expects that. They expect better broadcasting, you know, better cameras, better optics, better sound. You know some make decisions I probably would not have made, but they're reading the public in a different way than I probably did and I think the timing is such that there's enough younger people like yourself that can make a difference and the older guys like me are going to have to say goodbye.
Herb Perez:I don't, I don't believe that to be true, but I I'll let you say it because it is you and I can't uh, you are the most interesting. Or they put that guy in the commercials, the Dos Equis beer commercials, and I think they should have had you cause you are definitely, uh, that, that gentleman, and I think they should have had you because you are definitely that gentleman. Listen, I'm going to say one other thing about that and I have one final question, because I've kept you for too long. But the Chinese did the boat thing two years ago at the Asian Games, so they did the opening ceremony on a river, apparently. And that goes back to who invented the noodles. I'm not sure, was it the Italians? I'm sure it was the Chinese, but I don't know whether China stole the opening ceremony river boat thing from Paris or vice versa. But great minds created the same moments. I don't know. Have you had an opportunity? I don't know if it runs into your spear. Do you know who rick rubin is?
Herb Perez:no rick rubin's a uh, he's a. He's an interesting guy. He was a uh, he liked hip-hop music, apparently, and then he became a guru to all these hip-hop artists but, more importantly, to artists in general, and he's got this long white beard and he does yoga and studies Buddhism. But he just wrote a book on creativity and the only reason I mentioned it and I'll send you a copy it's a good read, but he mentions that creativity is in the air and it's not a question of an individual creating it. It exists and the first person to realize it becomes the creator. And I thought that was an interesting thing, and the only reason I mentioned it is the river, the boat thing.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:But I was surprised to see, but I would interrupt you there for a moment. I think I can understand what he's saying, but he would say that about a lot of things. I think youth feeds the creativity, so listen to your kids.
Herb Perez:Why do you think that is though?
Dr. Harvey Schiller:Because you have to think like a child, without restriction. We all are pushed into a corner because you know that's the way we've been nurtured. But your children, your children, will come up with some. Your children will come up with the next big idea if you give them the environment to do it. Because they're going to do, they're going to think of things that fit into their world, and that's the world that's growing. It's the next world, whatever it is. So you know, um look, when you buy a new car now I don't care if it's a Mercedes or a Ford, whatever it is they don't put a navigation system in it anymore.
Herb Perez:Why?
Dr. Harvey Schiller:Yeah, you're going to put in your Apple Because it's cheaper to upload a phone. You know to keep it relevant with new roads and everything than to do it with a car. You know, to keep it relevant with new roads and everything than to do it with a car. So the use of GPS on phones affected the automobile industry.
Herb Perez:And I'm sure your son, daughter, whoever it is, can walk into your gym and give you a better idea on how to run it. Oh, I'm sure, listen, I don't doubt it. You said something again. Another person I had read early on and this is certainly after I had an injury and I read his book. It was called the Way of the Peaceful Warrior, dan Millman, and he said something which has stuck with me to this day.
Herb Perez:And he said something which has stuck with me to this day, and it's about youth. He said babies succeed and they learn to walk with no one teaching them, because when they fall down, they get back up. They don't judge, they just get back up and they keep going. He said so when you're learning, he says learn like a baby, fail, get back up and move on right. So I've always found that to be kind of a profound quote. But I wanted to ask you one final question, and it was. I like these kinds of questions and I'm thankful for you calling me young, because I'm not young. I'm 64 now and I remember meeting you when I was in my 20s. So but looking back on your career, what are some of the biggest challenges you've faced and how did you overcome them and, in light of that, if there were any learning moments from it, what advice would you give to others facing similar obstacles in their professional life?
Dr. Harvey Schiller:Find somebody that's smarter than you. That's one way to fix things you know, that has a better insight into how to get there, whether it's business or flying airplanes or against an opponent. When you're as a team or an individual, find someone who has more insight into it. Take advantage of all the things that are around you in technology, especially now with AI. Don't forget that and be sensitive to human needs. You know, when the elder Bush he won, like, the World Sportsman Award and I gave it to him years ago before he died I walked up to him and said you were the president of the United States, what would you do differently now that you're not the president? He said I would spend more time taking care of human needs care of human needs. So all of us should be thinking about that when we're with people stopping to help someone who may need help and I don't mean necessarily someone across the street, I mean help them with a job, or help them with something in their career, with something in their career, or nurture them in some way.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:Or there was just an argument which went made public. It was somebody who was pro-Palestinian talking with somebody who was pro-Israel, and the pro-Palestinian who believed in Hamas said this thing that the Israelis are doing where they're bombing innocent people, america doesn't do that. And the individual said well, if you go back in history, we bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki and killed 100,000 people. We firebombed Dresden in Germany and we fired on Tokyo. It's not an excuse, it's just that history may repeat itself. We firebombed Dresden in Germany and we fired on Tokyo. It's not an excuse, it's just that history may repeat itself.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:I'm not making, I'm not trying to take either side here, but you know we're not as America, we're not innocent of everything, but we're better at it than we were before and we allow peaceful protests. So I think and I circled around your question, but I think, finding people smarter than you, using them, taking advantage of everything that you can and stepping back and saying am I doing it the right way? I tend to be compared to my son, he's a better marketer than me because I'm more mercurial. I could say to someone in a sponsorship are you going to do the goddamn deal or not? And Derek will walk around and say here's the reasons why you should do the deal. At the end of it. Sometimes I succeed and sometimes he succeeds. That's about it.
Herb Perez:Well, I've seen that, harvey Schiller. I haven't had the good fortune to see your son, but I think that is. I think they're both successful ways and I, unfortunately, model myself probably more towards your way. I'm a cut to the chase kind of guy. Well, listen, I want to thank you today, uh, for taking the time.
Herb Perez:No, no, because it's uh. This is, you know, we share this with young people and we share this with everybody, and I think this is probably uh, not probably, but definitely one of the best things that I've done and had the opportunity to speak. But thank you again for today.
Dr. Harvey Schiller:Well, they know that I love you and thank you for having me. You know I love you, sir, Be good Bye.
Herb Perez:Well, as expected, dr Harvey Schiller was an amazing guest with really insightful information about sport, life and his method of success. We love to bring you people that I think are inspirational but also knowledgeable in their area and cross areas of expertise, and he certainly does that. As I said before, I consider him a friend. He's somebody that I go to for advice and anytime I have an idea, he's the first person that I try to run it by, because anytime I have an idea, he's the first person that I try to run it by because of his history in sport, but, more importantly, his ethical behavior and his knowledge of how to understand the world through multiple lenses. I hope this was as informational for you and instructive as it was for me. And again, this has been the Masters Alliance podcast. Uncut with Herb Perez, and check out our other listings, because they are equally as informative and inspiring Until next time. This has been the Masters Alliance.