Masters Alliance
9th Dan BlackBelt and Olympic Gold Medalist Herb Perez visit with the best and brightest to bring clarity to the future of Martial arts.
Masters Alliance
Future of Taekwondo: Coach Juan Moreno's Vision and Paris 2024 Reflections
Experience an electrifying breakdown of the Paris 2024 Olympic Taekwondo event with legendary Olympic coach Juan Moreno. We uncover Coach Moreno's firsthand impressions of the stunning Grand Palais venue and the awe-inspiring architectural design that wowed sold-out crowds. Together, we tackle the hefty financial challenges smaller countries face when hosting such grand events, comparing Paris's success with the high expectations set for LA 2028.
Dive into the nitty-gritty of Taekwondo's evolving landscape as we analyze major shifts in scoring systems from 2012 to 2021. Coach Moreno offers an insider’s perspective on the transition from LaJust to Daedo systems, the upgrade to Daedo version two, and the introduction of KP&P. We address the controversies and inconsistencies these changes have brought to athletes and coaches, raising critical questions about fairness, preparedness, and the impact on competitive strategies.
We don't shy away from the hot topics, either. Listen to Coach Moreno's candid thoughts on the use of wildcards in Olympic Taekwondo, as we delve into the political implications and the potential undermining of the event’s integrity. From addressing the psychological battles athletes face after a semifinal loss to strategizing for future Olympic success, this episode is packed with valuable insights. Additionally, stay tuned for a sneak peek into our plans for a round table discussion with notable figures in the sport, setting up a dynamic conversation about Taekwondo’s future. Join us for this captivating and informative episode!
Welcome to the Masters Alliance podcast, uncut and I'm Herb Perez. Today is our Paris 2024 recap of the Olympic Taekwondo event with Olympic coach Juan Moreno. He shares his thoughts on his experiences there the outcomes, the good, the bad and the ugly, but, more importantly, his vision for the future and how we can make LA 2028 even better. As always, he's honest, optimistic and hopeful for the future of our sport. I think you're going to find this one to be tremendously interesting. Strap in. As always, this is going to be an exciting one. Welcome to the Masters Alliance podcast. I am Herb Perez, and this is a very special episode of Uncut because we're here with Coach Juan Moreno.
Herb Perez:You know Coach Moreno. He's coached three different countries' Olympic teams teams. He's also won silver medals at the olympic games, gold medals at the world cup championships, gold medals at the pan am games. He is arguably the best athlete we've ever produced in the united states and certainly the most successful coach that we've ever had. So I wanted to take a chance to catch up with him. How are you doing today, coach?
Juan Moreno :I'm doing great, just excited. It's always exciting to leave the country you know, the United States, and travel abroad, but it's always great to get back. Got my Miami 305 hat on today, a little different look for me. But yeah, I'm happy to be back and it was another great experience.
Herb Perez:Another great experience for me well, that's what we were hoping. I mean, there's not a uh olympic games that goes by that any olympian, let alone somebody with your stature and your record, can not appreciate but, more importantly, lament and have a nostalgic feeling. For I know that you were there and you saw those venues in person. What are your thoughts on the venues? How did you feel about that?
Juan Moreno :I thought about it because obviously my first initial reaction was just wow, spectacular, it was just amazing. And I was trying to go back and compare the different Olympics that I've been to. We've had arenas, we've had convention centers. I mean, the Olympic Games always dresses it up and makes it look really nice. But each Olympic Games is unique. But this was absolutely spectacular. That venue, the Grand Palais you know, Grand Palace, I mean built in 1900, the scale, just the architectural design of it, I don't know if it can ever be matched. I mean it's literally a historical site. And to have Taekwondo there, fencing there, you know, for the Olympic games was, it was spectacular. I mean you got goosebumps when you walked in and the way they presented it with the finals and had the athletes coming down that grand staircase, it was unique, it was special, it was unique and it was breathtaking.
Herb Perez:To be honest with you, Well, you mentioned something that is really a question as we talk about the games and the venue. I couldn't agree with you more. That was really an amazing venue. I've seen smaller versions of that kind of glass enclosure and what they did with it was just amazing. But it really does raise the question at what point can countries absorb the cost associated with these Olympic Games? I mean, each country continues to try to outdo the other. I mean this one, the handoff had Tom Cruise flying in on a cable, you know, and then getting on a plane going to LA and the Hollywood sign, and I didn't even see that part. But I mean, what do you think about the idea and the ability of these smaller countries to pull off a Games of this magnitude?
Juan Moreno :I mean you know better than me, you worked for the Olympic Council of Asia for many years and you worked on bidding and and and budgets and things of that nature. But the truth of the matter is most countries can't I mean it's most countries, you know build these stadiums and this infrastructure and then once the game go, the games leave. These things are ghost towns. It happens over and over and over. I think la will be very different because there's already structures in place so we'll probably be able to absorb the costs a lot better.
Juan Moreno :I mean, the first modern Olympic games to make money was 1984, you know, and that was kind of the predecessor to all these Olympic games to develop and make money and turn it into an actual business versus just a sporting event. So I know it's getting really difficult, even within just our specific sport, taekwondo, you know, to host a world championships or Grand Prix. Most countries can't do it because they don't make money, they have to be government funded and it's just a big undertaking. So it's a little scary, you know, to think that the Olympics could be just a certain amount of countries, but nevertheless, you know, when they do get it, I know everybody puts their best foot forward.
Juan Moreno :La 28 is going to have a difficult time to follow in the footsteps of Paris, paris, just because the iconic um uh views that that paris, you know, provides. But I have no doubt, you know, americans do everything big. We, you know, we host, you know, we've hosted world cups and super bowls and just huge events, and I'm certain that la 28 will do a magnificent job well, Well, that's great.
Herb Perez:I mean, can you tell us a little bit? I mean you were there. I watched the. You know, to be frank, I didn't watch all that much of the games, but I certainly watched the venues and I saw some of the highlights. Can you tell us a little about the crowd, Because my understanding was it was sold out.
Juan Moreno :Yeah, you know, again, I can't remember in Korea what the number was with the crowd, but here it was 8,000. 8,000, when I tell you, it was sold out. Morning session, afternoon session, evening session, it was sold out. The area that the athletes and coaches got to sit in was there wasn't enough room for us. I mean, we were, like you know, sitting in two in a chair. We were sitting in the aisles, security's trying to get us out because it's a fire hazard. I mean, it was crazy.
Juan Moreno :I'm certain that there was, you know, capacity in some of the other Olympic Games, but this just felt different. The crowd was knowledgeable, they were enthusiastic. The, the in venue announcing was, you know, it reminded me of an nba type show. It was asking people to stomp their feet, asking people to make noise. Um, it was loud, it was exciting. Like I said, it was knowledgeable. The I think the general fan base was knowledgeable. When a point was scored or somebody did something special, and it was. It was definitely electric, and not just for the home crowd, for for for many different countries, you know. I, you know, sometimes there was the crowd was cheering for the underdog against a highly ranked person or somebody from a big country and that was kind of kind of cool, kind of unique. I don't remember that happening.
Herb Perez:You know, too often in the past Well, I think that I think that's true. I mean, I, you know, I'm a big fan of the Olympics. I go and try to watch the best performance. So I don't really care who's fighting, and if it's the United States, obviously I'm, I'm cheering for the U? S. But if it's just a sport in general, I really don't care who it is. I'm enjoying the sport and I certainly have my challenges these days with taekwondo. But when I watch track and field, I watch swimming, I watch any sport that I think is fun to watch. I want to see the best performance. And that kind of brings me into my next question. You know we've talked a lot about the technology behind the games and then some of the challenges with that and that maybe some of the strengths are improvements. Can you, can you tell us a little bit about the technology and the chest protectors and how that all worked out this time around?
Juan Moreno :Yeah, I mean, just like anything, there are some great things that happen I'm sure we'll get into that and there are some things that I think are questionable, and one of them was the electronics. I think in this event, you know something to be noted that most people don't know. I'm a little privileged to it. In every single Olympic Games, there's been a change in the equipment. Let me go back to 2012. 2012,.
Juan Moreno :Up until that point, from 2008 to 2012, all the major international championships were used by, or we used, lajust, and right before 2012, there was some kind of battle and we switched to Dato right at the Olympics in 2012. It was the first time for many people at least for sure, from the Western hemisphere, using Dato Strange, you get to 2016. They went from Dato version one to Dato version two night and day. You had these top countries from Iran, korea. They fought a certain way, they were successful and all of a sudden, the games came. Something changed. It was different. 2021, same thing. The data system seemed off. This is the first time they used KP&P. I happen to like KP&P. I have the systems. I've been to world championships, grand Prixs, different domestic events and it works seamlessly. It just there's no breaking it down, it just keeps going. It's great this Olympic Games.
Juan Moreno :Something was different. It was damn near impossible to score on the body. People were drilling each other in the body. I don't have the exact statistics, but the head protector I mean. It seemed like 95 of the head shots had to be video replayed by the coach and damn, if you lost that card. You were, were in trouble. I mean, I saw in the last day Cuba versus Croatia. Croatia does a spin kick, cuba slides back Old school pot of chuggy to the face. Damn near. Ripped the dude's head off. No point, no registration. Coach had a review. Korea female female athlete spin hook kick gear or spin hook kicks. This woman's headgear off went flying. No, no point. So I again, I work with kpmp I. You know they sponsor us, but it was something was different. I don't know if it's the combination with Omega, you know timing, I don't know, but it was extremely, extremely different than what we use at the Grand Prix and the world championships.
Herb Perez:Did they hold an Olympic test event this time around?
Juan Moreno :They did, they did. I just think that it was too far before. I don't know that they use this system. It was strange. I mean I'll piggyback off this topic even into the referees. I mean, even the referees. Historically I believe they've been scoring way too many punches, but they scored a lot of them here. You couldn't buy a punch the first day, second day, third day, people were doing some really huge bombs and nothing where, again a couple months ago, the points are flying up and I think that just it took people out of their normal rhythm. They thought they could get a punch and follow with the kick and also they're drilling somebody and it's not going up. It just I think it changed the game. So I think the electronics, I think the referees, something was just different. I'm not saying wrong or right, well, 100 percent different, and that wasn't comfortable. I'll damn near say fair to the athletes and the coaches which you've been working for for four years. All of a sudden, just curveball changed it was, it was off, it was off.
Herb Perez:That was the point that I was going to make. I, as an athlete, as a coach, certainly as an athlete I train for the dynamic and the paradigms that are going to be employed in the match. I do what I think is necessary to win and I'm going to train those techniques and I should have a period of time to train them. And so in the past it had always been. You had to understand what the referees were to score the tournament. You do what the referees are scoring. If they're not scoring fast kick, don't waste time with it. You're throwing a back kick and it's not, don't waste time with it. But in this situation, when you have athletes who have depended on this electronic chest protector system and body protector system and they're expecting what they had trained which, quite frankly, is different than taekwondo, what, what you have to do to score points in a lot of cases is different than what you would normally do in taekwondo. At least, in the past, when you threw a round kick, there was a high likelihood it was going to score if it made a certain sound, hit a certain part of the body and had a certain amount of impact. Now you have to score with the chest protector. But if you change that paradigm of what the chest protector is going to recognize and then you add to the fact the referees, in this situation, aren't going to score punches, well then you do change the competitive environment. In this situation aren't going to score punches, well then you do change the competitive environment.
Herb Perez:And the question then becomes at what point did it change? Who knew it changed and what countries were allowed? And in the past that's always been korea. Korea was always privy to the system before the games. They had the system to use and to to train, and whether it was a scoring system, a point system or it was the actual technical equipment. So I'm not going to intimate that and nor would I ask you to comment on that. But, um, that certainly is a consideration and it may have accounted for what I saw, which was some incredible upsets well, let me go back, listen.
Juan Moreno :every for the last few olympic games, they have a coach and referee, joint um symposium, training camp, whatever, and we're trying to get on the same page. That wasn't the lack of punching was not brought up or told that, hey, we're not going to score too many punches, hey, we're going to be really, really selective. Nobody came back with that from a coaching standpoint that I can remember. You know you bring up who had advanced knowledge to this system. I mean in this instance, you know, for example, I think the Korean 80 guy is a magician on the chest protector. The guy is a cardio freak. He throws more kicks than anybody in the competition.
Juan Moreno :I kind of felt bad for the dude you know what I mean Because he's doing his thing Whack, whack, whack, whack, whack, whack, whack. He ain't got any points Like I could tell. He was like this is weird, let me go back and just do it a little bit. And he did it match after match and so it changed the game for a lot of people, him being one of them. So I wouldn't think that these, that country in particular, had any advanced knowledge of it, because it didn't show with his performance. You know, quite honestly, because you would think he would have adjusted something. But he was doing what he did you. He did in January, february, march, april and all these opens that he was just being rewarded for it. It was great. And all of a sudden, donuts and that was like you said earlier.
Juan Moreno :I'm a fan. I love Taekwondo. I'm a Taekwondo junkie. I sat in the venue, I went in the holding area and watched it on TV and I want to see good fights and this is a weird term, but I want to see the right people win. You know, I want to see the people that. I don't want to see somebody lose because the system isn't rewarding them for what has made them successful. If that makes sense, that's a little.
Herb Perez:No, that's correct. It's the best player. We all want to see the best player win and I think that, in fairness to the player and in fairness to the sport, we want to see the game elevated, and it's elevated by its champions.
Juan Moreno :And consistent at the Olympic Games, for what got them there? You know what I'm saying. I mean, if I've been consistently good and I'm doing that, all of a sudden the system is not rewarding me. There's a disconnect, something else, and that's not correct, and that's how I felt in this one.
Herb Perez:Yeah, well, I mean, and that's true, because at the end of the day, at least when it was scored by referees and referees were responsible, you could adjust your time in real time and the referees would adjust in real time. So you would see changes in the refereeing from day one to day two. But when you have an electronic scoring system that sets a bar and nobody knows where that bar is, no one knows how high, how fast, then it does create problems for the athletes in general and then it does reward athletes who probably shouldn't have been or not shouldn't, let's just say. It does reward athletes who probably shouldn't have been or not shouldn't, let's just say normally wouldn't have been rewarded. And this, you know, the refereeing, it's interesting.
Herb Perez:I laugh when you talk about them scoring a lot of points. Maybe they were trying to make up for the 20 years of points they didn't award for good punching. So when we were fighting, you know, I'd punch guys and they'd fall on the floor and die and the referee would wait for them to get back up and I'd look up and still no point. And I was like and I know you were there at the referee meeting that I was at as head of team and I finally said you know you guys don't understand what you're doing. I said what you're saying is that the strongest man in the world, the heaviest heavyweight in Taekwondo, can't punch with sufficient enough force to score a point. So either take it off the books or start scoring punches and uh and and it.
Herb Perez:And. It was an interesting. It's an apprehension. They don't want taekwondo, ironically, to become karate, but it has actually become point karate and so it is what it is. Well, listen, let's talk a little bit about this idea. I've seen some chatter from you know, third and fourth tier, what I call third and fourth tier never been to an Olympic Games as an athlete, coach or administrator, maybe not even as a spectator this idea of earning your way I. I saw this chatter. Unfortunately it shows up on my feed, um, and I'm not sure. Can you tell me a little bit about that?
Juan Moreno :yeah, I mean I, I don't know what you're, you know what feed you saw. I mean I, I wrote something and um, I, it was a double-edged sword. Because you know the olympic games is special and know when you qualify to go to the Olympic Games. Not everybody can win, and there's some people Usain Bolt and then there's other people, right, I mean there's the Dream Team and then there's some other people. It doesn't mean that people should or shouldn't be there, but I have an affinity for the Olympic Games and when I see people devote their whole lives and get there and whether they win or lose, you know that's each, each person has their own journey. We know that, and sometimes getting to the Olympic games and winning a match or just competing to the best of your ability is a win for your country or for your natural ability. But Taekwondo is. Taekwondo has changed. Um, there's a lot of administrative people, coaches that haven't done anything for a whole cycle and all of a sudden are sitting in the chair and the coach that got them there is not there. I find that wrong there's.
Juan Moreno :Let me ask you just real quick the olympics is supposed to be the best of the best, best right track and field, there's no wild cards. Wrestling, you know, boxing, there's no wild cards. Like why does? Why does taekwondo have wild cards? And if you told me we gave a wild card to somebody that was ranked number nine in the world, that just missed out, I might, we can make a case. But when you're giving these random wild cards to people to go get almost hurt, you know, lose 18 to nothing first round, 18 to nothing second round. This is not supposed to be everybody participation. This is the best of the best and I think it makes a mockery of the Olympic Games and actually to them too.
Juan Moreno :I'm all for equality, men, women, you know all that integration. But I just felt like when people just are given status as a coach or an administrative head of team, when people are just given status as an Olympian, that that didn't earn it, didn't qualify. I think it's strange because I just don't see that in other sports. And so for me you know that's where I was going with it, because I I look around that room and I know there's some people from small countries and they qualify in africa, they qualify in pan america. We had a female athlete from york way, she qualified and she, she fought her her ass off in the qualifier. She won first ever for her country in taekwondo. Like I saw the tears, I saw the, the joy and pride from the coach and all of a sudden that coach isn't there, you know, and I'm just like I feel bad for the guy that got her there. Her, she went, she lost. She lost to a great athlete at the Olympic Games and I'm like good for you man.
Juan Moreno :You came and laid it all on the line. And then there's some other people that the WT gave a wild card to. And I'm not going to get this. I don't want to get political, but when I see countries like Russia, you can think whatever you want. They should be there, they shouldn't be there. But when some can go and some can't go, I don't understand. I don't get it. And you know the Russian athletes in Taekwondo. They weren't allowed to compete since 2021. And somebody allowed them to at the end.
Juan Moreno :In qualification they had no points. They had to fight their way through the, the European qualifiers, as low seeds and they did it. They got a full team and a month before, oh yeah, we're revoking that, you can't come. It's just, the Olympic games got got changed really hard for our sport. I can't talk for everybody's sport, but for taekwondo, with, you know, the russians being pulled, with an athlete that qualified that all of a sudden was told oh, you didn't have enough people in there, we're taking you out, adding wild cards. It was a strange olympic games for our sport it's on.
Herb Perez:It's unfortunate because you said something which resonates with me the Olympics always has been and always will be the best of the best and it should be qualified. And when you have a sport or you have an idea that you need, you feel you need to do bootstrapping or you need to correct the ills of the past, then you make adjustments. And originally the idea behind wild cards, as we used them in the United States domestically, they were to account for guys who might have got injured, who were top players, and that gave them a seat into a championship that they were entitled to be at. We didn't take it and say, you know, I know there's not a lot of athletes in Kansas, so let's give that Kansas guy a shot. We know he's going to get killed in the first round, he might get hurt, and I think it's unfortunate that we've taken that step backwards, because I saw those draws and, quite frankly, I wish I had that draw, I wish I got to fight. You know the guy who's from a country with 12 people that do taekwondo. It wouldn't have went well for him, because I don't have that much love in Jesus in my heart, you know. So he, he would have been knocked out within about 10 seconds or so, which you? You've been there when I've used that solution. Um, you know, if you're not ready, don't come to the games now.
Herb Perez:We've done bootstrapping for the past eight years. We've gone around the world. We've helped countries, we've developed countries. In any country in the entire world that wants to develop a world-class athlete, using o Olympic solidarity fund, for example, can train anywhere in the world and become one of the best. I went to Afghanistan right after the war and, fortunate enough, I was recognized with the George Steinbrenner Award. I brought Afghanistan to Korea. I didn't leave them in Afghanistan. Steve Kaepernick and I took them to Korea and they got a bronze medal at the Asian Games that year. Now Afghanistan is delivering athlete after athlete. They're not being bootstrapped, they're developing top-tier talent and people should be required at some point to develop top-tier talent.
Herb Perez:As far as the coaching thing goes, that just drives me nuts and I see it, unfortunately, in the highest levels, at the most political stages of the countries with the most GNP, and I could name a few. I don't want the United States, for example, and it's unfortunate because, at the end of the day, our athletes should be entitled to the best coaches, they should be entitled to the best resources, and no one should sit in a chair or a position of power that can't deliver that. And I can't say that that's the case in the United States for sure. We don't have our best and our brightest running the organization, nor do we have our best and brightest in the chairs, and, as a result, I don't think we're getting the best performances out of our athletes. Which kind of leads me into my next question, which is let's talk a little bit about the results. So what? What did you see there, either as a trend for the world, any particular country or, you know, the country you coach for, which was Brazil?
Juan Moreno :You know, I think that you know, once again, the Olympic games has has become this crapshoot. You know what I mean. Everything and anything happens and I like that. I like that. You know the favorites don't always win and you always get this some young, new, fresh face. I mean you're just seeing a lot of young athletes that are fearless and they're just coming and I mean I'm going to brag a little bit, but it kind of reminds me of myself when I was 17 years old. I never left the country and all of a sudden I'm in Seoul, Korea, and I'm in the final and I remember being brash and young and fearless and literally I mean I'm just talking for myself I wasn't afraid at all, like not even nervous, afraid. I think I got more nervous and afraid as I got older because I knew the consequences, the weight on my shoulder, the expectations. But there's something with a youthful bliss where I was like come on, I want to show. You're seeing that now in Taekwondo with some certain athletes in certain countries, but I think that there was some eye-popping things.
Juan Moreno :Number one Iran is back. I don't know if they were always gone, but they had four athletes that made three finals a gold, two silvers and a bronze. I mean they were and quite honestly there was divisions that they didn't take 58 and 68, and they got some monsters there. So that was pretty impressive to see. Korea they got two gold medals. They haven't had that in a long time, especially on the male side. Two golds and a bronze out of their four athletes Pretty solid performance. Uzbekistan they might be the new boogeyman because they got a gold and a silver and the wrestlers, their athletes, fought well. I mean, they go deep in their tournament and they're just dangerous. Um and actually I'd like to talk about them later um, tunisia gold and a bronze pretty impressive. France gold and a bronze, but maybe left a little bit on the table. I think they thought they were going to get one more medal.
Juan Moreno :Those are the countries that I thought stood out, that were just strong. You know, all the way through. I think the countries that were down, historically, Turkey does a lot better than they did. Spain, when, you know, didn't do much at all. Um, croatia and serbia serbia got a silver, so it's pretty good, but they seem like they do better. They just didn't seem as competitive. You know, maybe it was just a little bit of a down cycle for them, but it was surprising. You expected them to be a little bit more in the mix.
Juan Moreno :Mexico had a tough Olympic Games. They had two athletes, no medals. United States they got a bronze medal and the athlete that got the bronze, the 67 girl, fought amazing, amazing lights out their superstar, you know was kind of exciting, but didn't get the job done. So I, I think that's a I don't want to use the word failure, but it's a little bit of a disappointment, because you're the world ranked number two, you're this hot kid and and yeah, you don't get on the podium. I I think that that is sting a little bit.
Herb Perez:Well, let's, let's. I don't want to, I don't want to. You know I've been very public about my thoughts on that and you know I think that I always wish the athletes the best and in fact I sent that athlete a note wishing him the best on his quest, because it's been a long time since the United States has had anybody that matters as a male athlete. We didn't qualify the Olympics before, we didn't perform the Olympics, this Olympics at all in the men's division, and we historically don't have since the times when we were strong and we were someone to be reckoned with. I think people now go, they look at a draw sheet and they go US, yes, good, great, excellent. And when we looked at draw sheets, people weren't happy to see us and they weren't happy to see Korea, and so I've said this and so I'll say it here. I think that particular athlete spent a whole lot of time on TikTok and dancing and shirt off, prancing and and doing his social media, and he could have. I wonder if he looks back at that now and says I wish I had spent a little more time on that round kick or cover punch or or whatever it is, and and um, you know, I don't wish anybody badly but I I'm gonna take a. I want to.
Herb Perez:I'm not blaming the athlete, because I think that's a very talented athlete, but I'm going to blame the coaching, the coaching staff and the leadership. Because at the point where you move a sport out into the boondocks of the United States and I'm not sure I could find it and I'm sure it would be pretty safe from a nuclear attack, wherever they're located, I don't think anybody else can find it and you put them there by their own devices. And then you have a coach who doesn't hold discipline for the athletes and doesn't hold them accountable and doesn't see this and say, hey, you guys might want to stop and start training. You know, I think that is a problem. I don't blame the athlete. The athlete's just an athlete. He's a young man that needs guidance and help, just like maybe a Mike Tyson needed guidance and help and he had custom auto. And I can tell you that US definitely doesn't have a custom auto. Because I can't.
Herb Perez:Could you imagine us as athletes with our shirts off, dancing and doing TikToks back in the day? I don't think so, but I lament, but I need to say that because I've been public about that and I wish that particular athlete and, quite frankly, that program helped, because there's no doubt that in a country with over 300 million people and a GMP that we have, we're not competing against countries like Tunisia. We can't win a medal in our division and in all four divisions that we've entered. So that's either a coaching problem, it's a leadership problem, it's a grassroots development problem, it's a program problem, but I can tell you that it didn't occur in the past regimes. You can love or hate them, but they had developed high-performance plans and implemented them that were inclusive. They had the best coaches for a long period of time sitting in chairs and they, quite frankly, had the best athletes being disciplined in their approach and they were expected For you, by example, you came on on the team and you were one of the most consistent athletes.
Herb Perez:We did not go to a games where we did not expect to medal. We were expected to medal and in fact we delivered medals. We went into a game, we made the medal rounds. If not gold medal, we got a silver or a bronze and that was what was expected and that's what we delivered and I think that's. I think that has changed. But that brings us back. You talked a little bit about it. Let's talk a little bit about the countries that are delivering the hot countries, and why do you think that is the case?
Juan Moreno :Well, I think that I think that in some of these countries, most of the countries, they really invested in their youth. I think that in some of these countries, most of the countries, they really invested in their youth. You know, I know it's the buzzword the grassroots, you know, the development level athletes. You're seeing these, these kids that are coming up from Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan and Tunisia and Korea, and they're a different generation. They grew up on the electronics Right and there's, there's people here in this country and some other countries in this western hemisphere they have done the same. Um, but I, I think that these countries have identified some of these athletes. They stick with them, they believe in and they nurture them all the way along, because if they identify them, they gotta let them, they gotta write it out. But I think what happens, you know, for some countries, they identify somebody and there's a roadblock to the next one. So you keep getting this like up and down, up and down, up and down, and I think that's you know.
Juan Moreno :Listen, I, I work for a country, you know, in South America. I'm very close to Mexico because my wife is from Mexico and I have Mexican descent. So I coach for Mexico, my wife is from Mexico and I have Mexican descent, so I coach for Mexico. So I hear the chatter you know about the athletes, the coaches, the administration. I live in the United States. I'm, you know, born and bred here, competing coach for them. So I same thing. I hear administrators, coaches, athletes.
Juan Moreno :But you know it's, I don't think it's, it shouldn't be a problem to discuss the successes and the failures. Just because you talk about some failures doesn't mean that you're taking shots at people, doesn't mean that you don't like people, doesn't mean that you're negative. Matter of fact, if you only want to talk about the wins, then you're a loser. Then you're a loser. You got to talk about the losses. You got to talk about what happened. You got to talk about. You know how do we make it right. It's easy when it's all hunky dory and you won, hooray, hooray, we're all feeling good about ourselves. But what about when you're down? It's okay, it's okay to question the athlete, it's okay to question the coach, it's okay to question the coach, it's okay to question the leadership, and that's how you get real answers.
Juan Moreno :You know, I mean, like I said, I don't want to pass judgment, but if you believe that the only way to win is based on your athleticism. You're a fool. That's not the case in any sport. You need athleticism, you need coaching, you need discipline. You any sport. You need athleticism, you need coaching, you need discipline, you need strategy, you need composure. You need all of those things. So if you're getting wowed by the flash, then shame on you, shame on whoever is leading that person.
Juan Moreno :You know, I mean, sometimes the winner isn't the most gifted athlete. You know that, herb, you weren't the most gifted athlete. Later on, when I was old, I wasn't the most gifted athlete. So it pains me to see you know. You know certain American athletes fail when I know they have great abilities and someone's not nurturing the other parts of it. That's.
Juan Moreno :Listen, I don't sit in all the chairs in Brazil and we have a lot of talented people, but sure as shit excuse my language I have meetings with these coaches. When they get on the plane, they're going to be excited. They get off the plane, they're going to be in the village. They're going to be excited. They get off the plane, they're going to be in the village. They're going to be excited. Hey, control those guys, let them enjoy, but at the same time make sure that we keep them grounded. Let's get to training. We are going to structure our training. I try to walk them through every single thing so they can be as consistent and ready as possible. It's not perfect, we're not winning everything, but if your process is correct, you're going to be better in the long run.
Juan Moreno :And I think that that's what I feel really good about with my job with Brazil. You look where we came from five years ago. You look at us as a whole. It's coming together. So I feel proud of that. You know it's a little bragging on my sense, you know, from my standpoint, but I mean, that's what programming is. It's not about an individual athlete's crazy ability to do something special. It's about building a program, building a staff, building a culture. That's how you're successful. And so go back to what you said. I believe Uzbekistan has built that culture. I believe Korea has got that culture back. That it matters Iran, I mean they've always been good, but somehow they lost their way and they're back.
Herb Perez:Yeah, they've always been good. I mean, you hit on a number of key points and you know, recently I've been talking and doing a lot of lectures on this book that I put out on these subjects and the reality is that and I watch, I know you're a big student of great athletes and I've listened to Michael Jordan talk I saw Tom Brady say something on this and what Tom Brady said was consistency and persist, and he said at the end of the day, it's about showing up and then being consistent in your approach, being willing to do what's necessary. And so when somebody gets upset because you criticize them and they can't handle it, then they're in the wrong sport. Because I take the model that if you're in a sport you don't perform, if you're an athlete, then we rehabilitate you and get you to a place where you can perform. If you're a coach or an administrator, we fire you, just like you would in the NFL, because NFL, if you don't deliver over a period of time, you may get another season if you're a great coach, but, trust me, if you're not a great coach, that's whatever. They call that. Black Monday or Black Friday, whatever it's called coach, that's whatever they call that. Black monday and black friday whatever it's called and uh, at the end of the day that's, you should be held accountable for your performance.
Herb Perez:Because we're a performance culture, we expect our athletes to go in and win medals. Now, quite frankly, the athletes themselves have made excuses. I've never seen so much celebration of a bronze medal or maybe a silver medal, but you know, to be frank, you, you were with me. I took a bronze medal. It didn't come home with me, it didn't leave the podium. I put it on at the podium, be polite and be a good loser, like I should be. As soon as I left that podium, that thing stayed in a hotel room. I don't have a single bronze medal in my collection, or a silver medal for that matter. Those were losses for me, and because I considered them losses, I ended up winning gold medals because those were the ones I could bring home and give my mom.
Herb Perez:The thing that's disappointing to me and you touched on some of it is the culture itself and the idea that you're going to focus on an outlier or someone athletic. You and I have seen a ton of these great athletes that have come through our program and never meddled internationally, or meddled internationally but couldn't get to the finish line to win a gold medal. You were in the room, quite frankly, when I had a conversation I won't mention the name of the athlete or the coach, but a top, one of our top athletes ever and that coach and they didn't perform and I sat them down with you there because you were one of the other coaches, and I gave them the riot act. I told them what I thought happened and why, and this is at a point where they were going to the casual path to training and, as a result, didn't have the results they want and they needed a wake-up call.
Herb Perez:I don't think it resonated with them and that particular athlete's program started to deteriorate even more and the results started to deteriorate. And that's unfortunate because, at the end of the day, winners hold themselves accountable. Losers make mistakes and they hold no one accountable. They hold everybody else is the reason they lost the coach, the scoring system. Winners somehow find a way to win. They.
Juan Moreno :They don't make excuses, you know I, I don't disagree, but I, I will like defend the bronze medal in the olympic process for taekwondo right now, because you gotta find a rapid charge, yeah that's right. That's that's what I was gonna say.
Herb Perez:Like they had a fight in there, you know they had some people have you know, still pulled themselves from the water and still wouldn't have came home with me, right?
Juan Moreno :yeah, I know, and I gotta be honest, I got it.
Herb Perez:I gotta be honest, it would be. It would have been tough for me to fight for a bronze medal. It would have been tough, if not impossible I well young.
Juan Moreno :There's a lot of people that when they get they lose in the semifinals and then the person from the rubber charts comes back up. That semifinal loser doesn't doesn't make it because they're just so dejected. The guy that comes from the bottom, you know he he's like oh my gosh, I have a second chance. He wins a match, wins another elsa's in the bronze medal. Like I can take a medal, I can salvage this. I mean, listen, I've been on the, you know the.
Herb Perez:Did you you ever fight for? Did you ever fight for a bronze? Did you have to go up through a rapid charge? Did they have rapid charges when you were fighting?
Juan Moreno :I made finals coach.
Herb Perez:That's what I'm saying. No, no, no, no, let's keep it real. No, no, this is a. This is the uncut podcast. This isn't for everyone. Let's be clear.
Herb Perez:You and our ilk guys, like us, we fought and we fought to make finals. We didn't fight to make bronze medals, and I don't I'd have to go back. I have, actually, I have a bronze medal, uh, or two, I don't know where, I don't have them, but I do remember getting them and I can tell you I didn't fight for them. I lost a match back then and that was because and that's what you got you got a bronze and so and I was okay with that, because I had no interest in fighting for a bronze it would have been difficult for me If I were a brand-new athlete, year one competing, and my coach, absolutely I get it. Let me fight up for that bronze, let me see, let me get a few more matches in to see if I can. And again, it's just. I get what you're saying, but for me it's just. I get what you're saying, but for me it was just.
Herb Perez:I'm trying in my world when I think about these athletes and what we're expecting from them. You know, we're the United States of America. If the USA basketball team had won a bronze medal, I don't think there would have been any celebrations. If the women's soccer team got a bronze medal, there wouldn't have been any celebrations. There are sports that, historically, were expected to win and we should win. In this particular sport, listen, the world has grown, the people in it have grown, the changing of nationalities has grown. So if you don't win listen, swimming you get a bronze medal. You're losing by a hundredth of a second. I get it. I get it, but in this sport, where it's in your control, it's mano a mano and you get a chance to fight somebody. You know, I think we can expect more and I got to be honest. I think if we expect more, we'll get more, but that's a leadership problem. I think that's a leadership problem. So you know, I'm not sure. Whatever.
Herb Perez:What do you see moving forward for 2028? What do you see as the changes necessary? Let's keep it. Let's keep it, uh, personal, what? Let's talk about our domestic program? What changes would be necessary? And I'm not talking about staff and all that sort of stuff. What do we, we, what any country? Let's keep it even more generic. What does any country that wants to be on the podium in 2028. Need to do.
Juan Moreno :I mean I again. I just I think you need to find some young people. I mean I think you need to. You know, I I think it's again different than our era. People can get get good and scary in a matter of two to three years. Again, they have talent, they have work ethic. They've already been kind of in this little system and I think you can take them in a couple years and get them on the podium. I really do. Who's going to be brave enough to search those kids out?
Juan Moreno :I think if you believe that you're, you look at some of the top athletes in this Olympic Games that were. They qualified top five in the world and then just went out and you're like what happened? They just got old real fast. I think if the United States is looking at you know the ages of people and you think you know what no, we're going to be all right. This person, oh, their age All of a sudden you're going to be looking up in their 27, 28, 29, 30. It could be scary. So I think if you're smart, you're looking for some young athletic specimens of athletes and then you hone their skills. I mean, again, as it sits, right now I'm working for the country of brazil. My contract is coming up. We'll see what I do with it, see what they do with it.
Juan Moreno :But on the fourth day of competition we didn't have any heavyweights. We didn't have that category. I watched in the morning. I've got my staff together, my technical director, my two other coaches, and we sat down for three hours and we talked about athlete development, training camps, selection procedures, the best methodology to qualify for the Olympic games. I mean we didn't solve it, but we took about two and a half, almost three hours and started throwing spitball and throwing some things out there so that we can go back and we can get our meeting and already in 2024, how we're going to attack 2028.
Juan Moreno :We're not waiting around. I mean we got to have the plan now and so I mean better prepare. I mean this country, it's home country next time. I think the United States has to get two to three medals. It'll be tough, I mean, but your home country, you got to do it. You got to do it. You have a direct qualification. You don't even have to qualify because you're the host country. You get automatic two and two if they can get some more good for them. But you got to produce in your home country.
Herb Perez:And I think they can. I think it's going to be a reckoning and I think it's necessary. Fortunately, or unfortunately, I think there are some strong organizations out there that have great talent that's not entered the pipeline. Aau, for example, bobby Stone's program is something I've been extremely impressed with. Running around here in California. I've looked at this organization, mudo, and their guys compete in the AAU and I don't believe they compete in the USAT. A lot of strong competitors. And where is the next Juan Moreno or Arlene Lemus coming from? You know where is that next person that's outside the program, that's going to come inside.
Herb Perez:If you really take a good look at our program, the great athletes in our program, with the exception of a handful, have come from outside. I came from outside, you came from outside, arlene came from outside, dana, he came from outside. Those names and the lopez's came from outside. So there's no doubt that those names um and and the girls that won last time came from outside the program. They weren't coached by the US coaches and the foreign US coaches. They were coached from outside the program. So there needs to be an adjustment and you're right. It starts with the plan and it starts with the high-performance plan on how you can do it. I was speaking to a good friend of ours and I told her she's an Olympic gold medalist. I said if I cared and if you cared, and perhaps if you cared, I could guarantee you that in four years we'd have four people on the podium Because we would put together our resources, we would develop a training center, we would bring those athletes in, we would get sponsorship from the people that we know and we'd develop a program that would yield four performances because we would do the talent research that was necessary. We would pull those athletes in and in a four-year period, like you said, we'd have them attend probably peak camps and travel around the world and compete and I can guarantee you there'll be podium performances because those athletes would be trained properly, given access to the information that's necessary, and that's how these programs are successful.
Herb Perez:People forget what Tunisia's connection is, people forget where Uzbekistan got their coaches and their athletes from, and people forget how Afghanistan and some of these other nominally recognizable countries in our sport started to develop. I'm not surprised by Iran, and why? Because 30, 20 years ago when I went there, and it is as far back as 10 years ago they have a domestic program and every week they get together in one location and they fight for three hours. Everybody from all the different regions come in. They compete and train together. You get on that floor. There's four or five world champions, there's 10 Asian game champions and they're still there. Those guys are still training and I don't know if Hadi is still there. I don't know if Karmi is still there, but when I went there I saw Karmi as a junior running around grabbing people to beat up. People were running from him when he was a kid because nobody wanted to fight him. I grabbed him. I said I haven't seen somebody like you since Juan Moreno or me, right when we were running around.
Juan Moreno :Yeah, those guys actually, you know Hadi is the president of Iran and Karami is in Pakistan coaching. He's actually doing pretty well over there. They got their first ever Asian game medal. You know, again, in this country, anybody, anybody that comes to this country and watches our nationals, our juniors, they're like wow. I mean I have people all the time Mexico, they come over and they're just like these kids are unbelievable. But there's there's some kind of disconnect and you know I have my own ideas why. But it just to get to your point again, for 2028, do you think that the people that are in the pipeline right now are going to be the ones that are going to take you to the promised land? Then it could be debatable. I don't know.
Herb Perez:I don't know, I, I don't, I maybe one, I don't believe that, I don't think they have the attention span, so I'll leave it at that. But uh, I, um, I can tell you that the average lifespan of a CEO in an NGB, which is a national governing body, for people that don't know of any sport, is 1.8 years. The average CEO stays in that job for 1.8 years. Now, and that's usually because they don't perform. Some of the outliers were like Chuck Welges for may he rest in peace for USA Swimming, because swimming was performing endlessly.
Herb Perez:And the swimming athletes you're right about youth, there are one or two that are outliers that stay the test of time and deliver, and deliver, and deliver. But a swimmer's ability to medal or gold medal or podium performance, is like one quad and that's it. And then there's a new one ready to take that space. And we hearing you, I think you're right, I think this may, based on the scoring system and everything else, um, may be the same that these younger, taller, skinnier, you know, uh, athletic, uh, agility, wise athletes are the ones we have to be looking at, certainly through 2028. I still hold out hope for taekwondo to return to some semblance of a game where power, athleticism and strength and conditioning and body type is necessary, rather than just being able to put your foot on a chest protector and close the circuit my brother-in-law.
Juan Moreno :Um, he coached for guatemala. He goes from mexico, he coached in costa rica and he was, uh, he made a really interesting comment, you know, because I was like man, the chest protectors aren't working, blah, blah, blah. He's like cuñado, which means brother-in-law. He's like maybe it's better that the little touches weren't scoring and people actually had to kick hard again and even though it wasn't working, but maybe that hard kicking is better than going.
Juan Moreno :And I was like good point, you know to, you know kind of what you're saying it, it almost made people kind of clench their fists, widen their legs and kind of throw some, some kicks. Maybe it can happen.
Herb Perez:I know there was only one ring in this particular venue. How many knockouts did you see?
Juan Moreno :Knockouts None, none, none.
Herb Perez:There's definitely more parity now, though, even with parity, though, though, listen, we've been to the olympic games. Jay warwick got knocked out, carried out, you know, he was one of our best athletes, he had a great career, and he went in against another great athlete with a great career, and and got knocked down twice. In every olympic games that we've been to, there have been people knocked out, carried out, and and Pasquale. We were there when Pasquale did it in Sydney.
Herb Perez:I watched him do a double kick to a guy and knock him out, and the the days of that kind of power being recognized or necessary to score because it was a necessity thing, you know, maybe have left the building, but and that that may or may not be okay, it is what it is, um, but you know, taekwondo has to reconcile itself with its identity crisis, is it point, karate? And if it is, then we have the perfect scoring system, although I will say, um, the simpler solution was to fix the refereeing, because now what you have is they don't wave off a non technique. If you put your foot in some form or fashion on the headgear or chest protector and it misses or hits the proximity center, it's a point they're not waving off. You know something that's not, and that's my one. You know, that's my one personal gripe.
Juan Moreno :But listen, I, me and you, we go back and forth privately about. You know the pros and cons about the sport and I've adapted to it. I'm not going to say I'm in love with it, but I appreciate what these guys can do. But listen, I take no pride in watching a replay over and over and over and have somebody bear and all of a sudden three points go up and they're like yes, we won the Olympic gold medal. I'm just like really, that's what you go home and tell everybody as a fighting sport? Yes, I was fighting.
Juan Moreno :And then the last second my toe got his whisker and it gave me three points. That's a little strange, you know, but that's neither here nor there I don't want to take away from the Olympic games. I think it was I mentioned before we got on air. I'm an Olympic snob, you know. I've been to a lot of these games and I love that. Each Olympic games is special and unique. And this was a special and unique game. For the backdrop, the craziness of who won and who didn't win, um, the energy of the crowd and the knowledge of the crowd, I thought was pretty special. So, you know, I think, all in all, Paris for for our sport did a great job and you know, 2028 is going to be awesome in LA, so it's going to be big.
Herb Perez:Well, it sounds like it was a thumbs up experience and, as always, you know it's a pleasure having you on the podcast on cut and I know you're coming out this way to do a seminar and and go to one of your juniors weddings and I look forward to seeing you then and we can chat more about that. But in closing, is there anything you want to add or have you covered everything you want to talk about?
Juan Moreno :Yeah, I, I mean, you know, listen, I think it's, it's, you know, I, I love speaking about, like you said, I love, I love that word uncut, you know, because you know we're just, we're just talking, you know, and I think that you know we need to have some more I, I would love to have some kind of I don't know if you ever thought about this and I don't know if we could do in this format some kind of round table format where you know, maybe you're the moderator and and and we can debate, you know, points. You know, I think that would be really interesting because I think I, again, I just take one oh, is it gets so prim and proper, you know, and we can't say the wrong thing, but when I watch football analysis and baseball and basketball, they go at it, I disagree, and afterwards they can laugh and they can joke, and they show up tomorrow and they're on the show again.
Herb Perez:Well, I've got the perfect panel, because I've been thinking about it and it's going to be one of our best podcasts ever on Cut. It's going to be you, it's going to be me, it's going to be Dr Steve Kaepner, because I know you just had a talk with him. And then I've got a surprise that I'll throw in there. And then I've invited Arlene Lemus, because I think she's an important part of the conversation as well, because she's certainly a historical figure in it. But I'm going to keep one surprise guest in there and it's going to be a real thing. It's going to be a real conversation and at the end of it you know it's a gloves off kind of thing We'll all be respectful, but at the end of the day, we're going to talk real deal about real stuff, because we have a lot of passionate people.
Herb Perez:I have the. You know you're my brother. I have the utmost respect for you, having been there from day one of your journey in this, in this realm at least not in your other realms and then watch the evolution of you and and I appreciate the fact that you're willing and able to articulate the things that you can about the benefits of the sport as in its current incarnation, and and I, quite frankly, don't sit in chairs anymore any longer, because I don't have anything relevant to say in that I'm about process and and and matters now that are outside that sport, and that's why I look to guys like you to tell me what the deal is and to keep us in check. So I look forward to that conversation and I'm going to get it dialed in. Um, I'm actually I was supposed to see dr capner tonight. He's in seattle, but um, my, our schedules are not going to make it and I've got to go to Shanghai next week and after that then I'll be back. But I look forward to seeing you here.
Juan Moreno :All right, great. Well, let's do it again. Thank you again for always thinking about me. It was a lot of fun.
Herb Perez:Thank you for taking the time, sir, thank you, thank you taking the time, sir, thank you, thank you. Coach juan moreno, as always, delivers a true and accurate depiction of what happened in paris 2024 the highs, the lows, the good, the bad, the ugly, but, more importantly, the optimistic view for the future as we approach 2028. As he said, we need to start today to create our future if we want to be successful and put people on the medal podium. I'm hopeful that we can do that and I'm hopeful that people like Coach Moreno can help us achieve our goals. This has been a Masters Alliance podcast, uncut.