Masters Alliance
9th Dan BlackBelt and Olympic Gold Medalist Herb Perez visit with the best and brightest to bring clarity to the future of Martial arts.
Masters Alliance
The Shifting Paradigms of Taekwondo Training and Coaching
The Shifting Paradigms of Taekwondo Training and Coaching
Olympic legends Herb Perez, Juan Moreno, and TJ Jennings join us for an eye-opening exploration through the transformative journey of Taekwondo. From the adrenaline-pumping days of minimal gear and intense knockouts to today's era dominated by electronic scoring, these champions share a unique perspective on how the sport has evolved. They reveal the personal growth and profound impact that competing at the highest level can bring, offering listeners an intimate glimpse into their world.
We'll take you through the intriguing shift from traditional paper scoring to modern electronic systems, and the challenges that have emerged with these advancements. Discover how this evolution has changed the game for athletes and coaches, providing opportunities for contenders from smaller nations to shine on the global stage. Our guests share candid anecdotes of scoring discrepancies, questioning the current reliance on video replays and highlighting the ongoing need for fairness and accuracy.
As we reflect on Taekwondo's journey, we shine a spotlight on the state of technical training in the United States. Our conversation covers everything from the importance of maintaining a unique identity to the frustrations surrounding high-performance centers and coaching selections. Through personal stories, raw confessions, and powerful narratives, this episode urges a return to authenticity and truth in the sporting world, reminding us that the journey and integrity matter more than medals and accolades.
Outro Music.
Speaker 3:Well, we're back. This is episode two, and it's not going to change, it's just going to get better. This is the Warehouse 15. And three Olympians, three coaches, three athletes.
Speaker 4:Oh, how about the gold, silver and bronze? Dang, that's crazy. We cover the spectrum, we cover the spectrum.
Speaker 3:Just remember, I didn't say that.
Speaker 3:But, we are keeping it real. So you know, when you get a chance to compete at that level, it doesn't matter what you bring home, it matters what you did on the way, it matters how it changed your life. And for the three individuals on this I'm Herb Perez, we got Juan Moreno with us and we got TJ Jennings, and nobody better. Couldn't think of three better people, excluding myself, of course to talk about it, because we're going to keep it real. But you know, it's going to be personal and if you take it personally, that's OK, because this wasn't meant to be nice, it wasn't meant to be bad, it's just meant to be real. And with that, first, I'd like to welcome you all here. Mr Moreno, what's going on today, coach?
Speaker 4:Hey, everything's good, man, Happy to be here Back at number two. We're just going to keep building this and I love when you say take it personal, because for some reason we're in this little world where everybody takes it personal for the wrong reasons. Why not take it personal to to make you better, to empower you? You know that's always okay, but you know it's uh, it's a new day. It's a new day, man. Gloves came off. Let's have some fun. Let's talk about.
Speaker 3:That's what I like about it. I you know. Again, this is literally almost three generations of taekwondo here. You know, we came from three close but slightly separate generations. And Mr Jennings, coach, what do you have to say for us today?
Speaker 5:I like to think I'm a blend of all three. I got a chance to fight with the regular hokus, the no hokus, the point system on the screen, the paper system, all with electronics. So I'm always excited to sit down and have a conversation with you guys about the past of Taekwondo, the future of Taekwondo and, like the past of Tequendale, the future of Tequendale and the current of Tequendale.
Speaker 4:So, looking forward to our topic today, I know it's not the subject, but I like how we all blend together. You're right, herb, you were one of my mentors, right, and then you kind of saw me making teams and then, as you filtered out that I was an athlete and a coach, and same thing I got to work with TJ. So it's interesting how we, our generations, do overlap sidebar. Sorry about that.
Speaker 3:No, that's, that's exactly why it matters. I mean, we were here, um, we've been here for quite some time. You guys are still there, still coaching, and and I'm doing some other stuff within the sport in a different way, and I think that's what matters. We can. I like this group because we can speak authoritatively, you can speak about it in an experiential sense, but, more importantly, we can put a perspective that others may not have had, and the reason for that is we were at it and doing it at the highest level at every stage of the game, when it was a full contact sport, with chest protectors and barely some equipment to protect you, when knockouts were not rare but were very prevalent. And then we moved into those other areas, where it started to deal with the referee issues, and they got into electronics. And then, virtually, we are now, and realistically we are where we are now, which is we're going to talk about that today.
Speaker 3:With that segue, though, let's talk a little bit about that today. Where do we find ourselves now in 2024? And what was last year like? And, more importantly, what does that say for the future? But let's start with where we are now. What's going on now? I'll let you start first, sir.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, I mean, obviously, I mean 12 years into electronics, right? I mean we started in 2012. No, I'm sorry, that's not true From the Olympic Games, 2012,. It started in 2008. So it's been, you know, quite a long time. There's been different generations of it. It's improved but, in my opinion, not improved nearly enough, you know, by virtue of having to, you know, video replay cards and look for all these little minute touches and points. So we are definitely in a better electronic age.
Speaker 4:I think that some of the new systems that are coming out of China and Korea are trying to blend maybe some. I even hate this term and you know, TJ, we've talked about this a lot. I hate old school, new school terms. I mean, it's just, it is what it is. I mean the modern current day has blended some of some things from the past generations, whatever generation you want, I guess, because people older than you, Herb, would say you know, old school is the 70s, you know, you say old school is the 80s and 90s, and TJ may say the old school is 2000. So it's all relevant. But my point is, I think the electronics have developed enough and the athletes and coaches have developed enough. They just starting to see a pretty interesting blend worldwide. Not good enough yet for the system and we get inside a second, but I think that's where we're at right now, in my opinion.
Speaker 5:TJ, I would agree. I think, like for me, I'm a toss up. I kind of enjoy the electronics era of this game and at the same time I do miss the mindset that came with the older style game. When I say older style game, I mean I'm going all the way back to when we just did paper scoring and you didn't know what the score was until the end of the round was over. So your mentality then was to finish this person I mean I, you know, you go through matches where you beat this kid up and it's one zero and you got to go back and do it all again and you kicked them 99 times but you got one point for that whole round. So it it, it twisted your mind a little bit to know that I have to keep going forward. I got to keep fighting and I got to make sure this, this fight, sways in my direction.
Speaker 5:So I think now, simply because I mean you go from that generation to the scoring on the screen generation, it makes it completely different too, seeing that immediate response of oh, I scored, oh, I scored. So I think it's just changed the dynamic of the, obviously the sport, but also the athlete. You know, we never thought about maintaining points back then. We never were trying not to get scored on, we were just trying to score and score and score. Good point scored on, we were just trying to score and score and score. And I think you have a mix of that now with some of the countries that kick a lot, but at the same time you know it's very easy to sit for 30, 40 seconds when you're up by five and six and know this person has to cover ground. Before we didn't have that luxury.
Speaker 5:So me, I go back and forth with it a little bit. When I'm training my guys I try to get them focused on. Look, we always have to put the pressure a little bit, whether it's with our motion and movement and all that stuff like that. But definitely, like Coach Moreno just said, I think we're in a better era. I mean I went through the one where there was, you know, you remember we had to like, protest all the headshots you had to ask for all the headshots of the referee for scoring it, just the headshots, you know. And I lost a lot of matches just simply because the crowd cheers and her foot goes flying over your head. You know what I mean. So I think we're at a better place, but uh, like you said, definitely not perfect, definitely not close. So hopefully we keep changing and progressing through this, this whole process well, you know, I don't, I don't watch.
Speaker 3:I mean, I got to be honest, I try to watch and do my best to watch, and it's gotten I would argue it's gotten better. I think one of the challenges is, you know, remember how we got here. We got here because they couldn't find referees who could score the matches accurately or fairly, and so when we were competing and, like you said, you'd fight a fight and it would be one zero. After you scored, you know, 10 points or three points, or five points, the next round would be zero, one for the other guy, and so you'd find yourself in really a 10 point must system. Now, you obviously did more than that and you obviously scored more points than that. And I can remember one match in particular uh, for coach moreno, and I can definitely remember at least one for myself where the outcome of the scoreboard didn't match the outcome of what we did on the mat, and that was because the match was preordained by the Koreans in Korea and they needed their win and they were going to get their win. However, they got it, whether that was by pruning the tree, as they say, which is, they would knock you out early if they got you, or if they did it actually in a final or in a semifinal. And that's unfortunate because that lack of ethics and morals and scruples caused us to have to use a what I would call a substandard method of scoring. And I was, as you guys know, one of the guys who created that system for scoring.
Speaker 3:And the multi-point scoring system was not meant to be used for electronic scoring. It was meant to be used for referees. If the guy kicks somebody in the face, we said give him five points. He kicks him with a body kick. That's turning. Give him three points. He does a regular round kick, give him two points and if he punches, do one point. Um, and with a jump there was an additional point. That's how you got to five for the face kicks. But then they came up with these electronic scoring things which when you first saw them um, I don't remember if you were on that trip or not there was a junior trip that went to Vietnam and they had a clown show. You know they have the three-ring circus and at the end they bring out the clown show and there's a clown car. It was a clown show.
Speaker 3:I mean, we were laughing, we were laughing.
Speaker 4:I swear. When I saw that and I actually saw one in Korea as well I went there to watch it and was like this will never make. I remember saying that to the ceo at the time, who was dave asking this. I said this will never, this will never fly, because it was so bad, it was such a joke it was.
Speaker 3:They were skating they were skating across the floor. And then you know, my favorite moment is with jungkook young and I and we're sitting at the uh world championships in copenhagen and we're watching this. And we're sitting with whoever the provider was then, whether it was logistic, whoever and he's telling us how they've been doing all this testing and that's better and this is good. And we're sitting there and jungkook young and I watching this match and the guy one of the heavyweights might have been from uh, cuba or something hits this guy with a bomb to the body.
Speaker 3:I mean just huge sound and no point goes up yeah and so we look at him and jungkook young goes to him. Okay, you need to go back to the laboratory until that's a point, right, and it's true, right. So as far as where we are now, um, you know, one of the challenges is that you don't want to give the referees the power to wave off something that wasn't a technique. So now you have something where a guy sticks his arm out straight, touches the whole group, even if it's with the right amount of contact, or a foot, which you've seen before, and the foot and the wet hand thing scores a point, and the referee can't wave that off. And so, non techniques, that wouldn't put.
Speaker 3:Taekwondo was originally a full contact martial art. The idea was you kick somebody, hurt and there was a reason you got a point. It was enough force or power, trembling, shot that it caused your opponent to be injured or damaged. And that's just not. That's not happening. I don't see it with the electronics, but you guys are in the ring more than me, so I'd like to hear from you.
Speaker 4:I mean, you're right, you're right, but what I'll say is it's, you know, it's interesting. First of all, let's be honest, there's not another martial art, martial art discipline that is scored by electronics, other than fencing, not judo, not jujitsu, not boxing, not wrestling, not greco wrestling, and except for taekwondo, now, with the striking arts, boxing, you know, uh, you know, kickboxing, things like that. I mean, again, nobody uses an electronic apparatus, nobody. So it's interesting, because again, I'm beating a dead horse, because we're probably never going to go back, but still to think that our human-natured people, in our sport, weren't able to judge this consistently, fairly, it's a shame. But that being said, well, it's a shame.
Speaker 3:But that being said, you, know Well, hit that for a minute. So what would happen in basketball or football, professional football, basketball or any professional sport if a referee was incapable of judging the match fairly? You know where those referees go.
Speaker 5:Nowhere, that's every sport right now. You watch football, you watch basketball. I'm going to say I'm not going to side it to you. The match fairly. You know where those referees go. Nowhere, that's every sport right now. You watch football, you watch basketball. I'm gonna say I'm not gonna decide until you referees just suck in general most of the time like it's not and maybe it's they missed it, maybe they didn't see it, maybe they interpreted it differently, but honestly, it happens across a lot of sports where you see a lot of bad calls and things.
Speaker 5:I'll I'll go back just a little bit to this conversation. I'm gonna say when, when I used used to fight Mark Lopez back in the day, the electronics for me gave me a window to win. I don't think I was going to be allowed to win without the electronics. It was a point in time where me and him would fight and I would hit him a lot, I would score points, and it was 0-0. It was 2-0 him, it was 1-0 him. So when the electronics came around, it gave me enough of an edge, enough of fairness, fairness I don't know what you call it to to be able to put myself on that olympic team and to make you know multiple world championship teams and you know the national teams.
Speaker 4:But um before, that it was a little tough, if it was actually that's what the europeans say too right now. The europeans I mean countries like serbia and croatia, small countries never were significant in taekwondo and some of it was talent, some of it was pool, some of it was coaching, but some of it was just the unfair biasness to some of the bigger european countries. And so when electronics came out, now we're seeing countries like serbia and croatia and bosnia and all of a sudden they have some olympic gold medalists and so I don't know what that means. But I mean, actually that's a really. It would have been very interesting to know what those matches would have looked like pre-electronics. With electronics I mean again, power, this and that.
Speaker 4:But there were some times and we saw I mean, that's just your match, but listen, I've been to US team trials when I wasn't fighting and I watched some high-level people from one club and funny high-level people from another club, and one club wasn't going to win. I mean the shoe's on the other foot, the Lopez group. I mean they couldn't win to save their life. It was just the fix was in, the points weren't going up, the Cobb Johns came at the wrong time. It was crazy.
Speaker 3:But the corruption, the corruption that used to happen. You know, I remember being in 87 and the US team captain lost the match to Mark Isbester. Mark Isbester won the match, clearly won the match. They raised his hand. All of a sudden there was a phone call made to the then president of USA Taekwondo. And there was a sudden there was a phone call made to the then president of USA Taekwondo and there was a room. Everybody went into a room and an hour later came out and that match was overturned, even though it had been appealed, and the appeal was lost.
Speaker 4:So they left already.
Speaker 3:They left already. They came back and this individual changed. That's why we have this system. Individual change that that's why we have this system because, well, yes, systematically, systemically, the organization was unable. They went, they changed the outcome of that match so that that person could go to the pan am games. So has that person lost the pan am had lost at that match? To mark is best for um well-known fact. They went into a room, came back, us team captain. All of a sudden the decision was returned. He got to fight the rest of the day. And you know that's not the first time that that's happened. There are many times. You know there were great fighters out of Oregon that couldn't win a match, couldn't do anything to win a match, mike Kenda, for example, and guys like this. So you know there's no, yeah, there's no doubt that there are. You know, historically you fought Korea. You score five points, you might get one.
Speaker 4:Right. So let me ask you so all that being said, all that being said, as much as we could talk about the styles of the athletes and stuff like that, because I know we have some, we have some different opinions, but we can, we could talk about it, you know, you know professionally, but all that that you just said, all that that tj just said, are we better off now?
Speaker 5:as far as the the system fairly, yeah, I would say no. I, I would say no again. I get the human error and I get the human bias and I get at least I'm going to say this At least you say you know you score five points on Korea. You get one point At least. I knew that. That's what the ratio was like. I know I got to go in and do a little bit more to win this match and I know that before we got there I knew that while I was training. I knew that before I got on the plane I knew that while I was training. I knew that before I got on the plate I knew it. But with the electronic system now, I mean I've coached and I've fought. Obviously I've used it to fight, but just I think coaching you get a different look at it too. There's a lot of discrepancies in like the whole system that just change matches. I mean you don't know what's going on. You don't know Since the taekwondo.
Speaker 3:It's equally unfair for everybody. That's the best I've heard. But here's, here's the reality. So I won internationally, not because I was the best fighter, but because it was so hard for me to get out of the country. The amount of cheating and nepotism, and I could give you the list, but history's written itself. I'm not going to grouse about the past, but for me to get out of the country, for Juan Moreno to get out of the country, past the self interested, mostly Korean instructors with Korean students and sons, to be frank, in my situation on a couple of occasions, actually on both occasions, with their personal sons, and then they're the head of the referee corps for me to get out of the country, I had to beat those guys by five and six points and that's the way I got out of the country. I had to beat those guys by five and six points and that's the way I got out of the country. So by the time I went to international, it was actually kind of cool because I'm like, oh, this is going to be fairer, fairer, and I'm only going to have to worry about Korea where that's going to happen. So, yeah, I mean, I agree with you.
Speaker 3:I think the technical and this is my only point on this. The technical regimen of the United States and its athletes has diminished and they're, athletically, you can argue better, better shape, more talented, taller, smaller definitely not better looking than us three, but you know they can work on that. But their technical regimen hasn't improved. It's not forced to improve. When you're putting the crucible and you got to fight a guy like Naeem Hassan or John Lee or Scott Rohr or Scott Moranty or any of the athletes I could name, that I fought you. You, you better show up. You better show up and you better be good, because they're not kicking to put their hand on your chest protector and wet their palm and get a point. They're not trying to sweep their foot over your head with monkey kick or whatever weasel kick. They're trying to kill you. They're trying to hit you so hard that you go home in a box and that's reality.
Speaker 4:Well, I mean OK, so we could talk about the system, we could talk about the referees, we could talk about it for better or worse. Let's talk about since the electronic age started. Ok, let's bring it back to this country, where, where we started let's just say 2012 into where we are now. 2024, that's uh. You know uh, 20 or 12 years, right, that's uh quite a bit. You know of olympic cycles 12, 16, 21 and 24, around our fourth cycle, even because I want to get back to something you said about our technique development. But I'll throw that question out there to you guys first. Where do you think we're at?
Speaker 5:TJ, for me, I feel like we used to have more of an identity. I felt like we had a. I don't know where we stand. To be honest with you, I think we're in the mix, I think we're involved, but are we scary? Are we great? I think the biggest thing for me was always that hope that that day we show up to tournaments and the world was afraid of us. I don't feel like we're no closer to that now than we listen.
Speaker 5:I feel like we had some strong teams before, and I'm not saying the team that show up to the world champs are not strong now or competitive now, but the goal was always supposed to be for us to be the most dominant country at the competition and that's what we showed up to do and that's what we showed up to always kind of to kind of to show everyone to. That feeling was there, that the thought was there and, like you said a little a few minutes ago, the to get out of the country was something scary. To get out of the country. When I left, when I actually got out, I felt like I was a superhero. I, when I left, when I actually got out, I felt like I was a superhero. I felt like I could beat anybody because I knew what I had been through in this country. The names I had to beat the people had to be the number of times I had to beat them. I mean, I go back to for me, my Olympic process. I go, got a medal at the Olympic Games and came back and fought another world championships, team trials, like it was immediate. There was no we talk about, you know, putting you through the grinder or putting you into the mix. There was no protection whatsoever. You did it. You had to go do it again. You had to do it again and again, and again, and that that gave me again my edge for the amount of time I had it. That gave me my edge, that the confidence has.
Speaker 5:But as far as I think we've lost that. I think that's not there anymore. I don't think we have the depth in divisions. I don't think we have the depth in development. I don't think we have a lot of things that got us to that point of looking to your left and to your right and I know you named some names that these guys are all scared. Everyone in your division could go out there and put up a hundred points. They could go out there and fight and go out there and put you away. So you had to be ready and willing to fight every single person. So for me, I don't think we're any closer, definitely not better.
Speaker 3:I think everybody in all our divisions. I mean it was a different generation of athletes, but I mean it's an interesting question. So I mean, coach, I mean what are your thoughts on it? Do you think it's better, worse, what do you think?
Speaker 4:Well, I mean, listen, I think there's a lot of different ways you can look at it. I think number one you could just look at metal production. Okay, in 12, we had two metals, in 24, we had one, right, and you just keep going back and it was only been one, one, one, one one. So I think, just on production, I don't care if you like it or you don't like it, it's less production. So that would be a thumbs down. I think that you're right, TJ, that there was a moment in your era certainly in my era and I know in their era when the United States walked in, people were a little bit shook. When people looked at the draws they were like, oh shit, there he is. So I don't think that happens much anymore. There might be one or two that kind of raise the eyebrow and go dang. I thought I would get him later. So that's not good. You want to say something?
Speaker 5:I was going to say I miss you know what it was too. I think to kind of get into that, I miss random draws, I miss showing up to the world championships and showing up to these big tournaments, and there was no way anybody's protected. You're not separating number one, number two, number three, number four. It was irrelevant, I think. I think that that also plays a big part of it. Now, this is the rank system and knowing exactly where you fall, who you fall against, and and I. It creates this different dynamic of competition.
Speaker 4:But, but I'll get to my last point. So the results are down. I'm going to just say it's a. I can't. The feeling is definitely not there. I mean, I coach for another country. I mean, yeah, I mean you're not necessarily worried. I'm not saying we're going to win all the time, but it is what it is, and I would think that the rest of the world feels the same way. But I'm gonna get to the most important point, and I learned this from my predecessors. Some wise guy told me he would go to korea back in the day to not learn how to be a korean, but learn how to beat the koreans. That guy over there, that ugly old guy right there.
Speaker 4:I remember you saying that, I swear I remember you saying that, and I think TJ, think about it. Right now. Everybody wants to copy this style in Spain, or this style in France, or this style in GB, or this style in Croatia. That's all we're doing. We're bad imitations. We're bad imitations. And if we're just trying to learn from them and catch them and try to be like them and do the same shit as them, how the hell are we going to beat them? They're laughing at us, they're just going. Oh yeah, we did that last year, we're doing this this year. We're just always a click behind. And so when I see the kids and the coaches, they're pretty good, they kind of know what they're doing, but they're just one step behind. Someone's going to have to take, someone's going to have to have some balls and just say you know what? We got to have our own system Again self-serving.
Speaker 4:There was a time when I was working with the organization and I remember one of our main focus was what's our identity? What do we want to look like? What do we want the athletes to be like? And unless I've been missing something, I don't know what the identity is. I heard this thing pick a fight. Oh, let's go pick a fight today. That's their mantra. There are some people's mantras. I'm like, okay, you're not picking it, you're not picking too good of fights because you're getting beat up, you know and I hate to say that I mean, listen, I, you know bleed red, white and blue, but I and I don't want to be Debbie Downer and stuff like that. But somehow some way we gotta be better, stuff like that. But somehow some way we got to be better.
Speaker 3:I put a picture of the. This is the US team trials for next year.
Speaker 3:And, as you can tell, he's got some cojones, but that's, that's what it's turned into. It's turned into ballet, right? So I'm going to change it now. I just had to put it up. But you know, I've said this for a long time the technical regimen, you know, I think we can agree has changed. What better or worse you can argue. I always hear when I talk you know, coach, when I talk to you, you're always telling me hey, these guys are better, they're, they're really athletic and they're good. And in practice, um, I'm going to tell you something I haven't seen a back kick like a real back kick. I haven't seen anybody practice it. And when you don't don't practice it, you lose it. You don't use it, you lose it. And that's kind of everything in life, including, um, this area here but it's like all the it's, all the kicks, young it's, it's.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, they can back, they can back kick. They just don't back kick with the intent to like kill anybody because there's no need, there's no value. I mean, I teach on electronics.
Speaker 3:They're back hook kicking the body right, which you know. If you did that to us when we were fighting, you know I'd punch you in the foot.
Speaker 4:But it wouldn't be rewarded, so you wouldn't do it, that's the point Right now is they're rewarding.
Speaker 3:I don't blame the athletes. This is the point right now is they're rewarding what they're. I don't blame the athletes. What they reward is what you're going to do. So if they reward it, that's what you do. I have no issue with that. But the question becomes stepping has gone away. The regimen of Taekwondo that utilized stepping and multiple kicking has gone away.
Speaker 3:This idea of what they call, which was actually made illegal when we were fighting canceling this leg, canceling nonsense. It was made illegal because they knew what they would do to the game. They knew it would ruin the game. If you allowed people to lift their leg and leg check or kick under a leg and do a lot, it would ruin the game. Now and I'm not talking about strictly lifting your leg under a kick to thwart it right, the abductor, adductor muscles aren't strong enough to withstand. That's what ruins that, and so then you go back to. Okay.
Speaker 3:So if you're going to make the argument, you got to first understand fundamentally what is Taekwondo. If you're going to say we want to focus on kicking, then you focus on kicking and and just strong punching. You focus on those two things. But then, if you lift your leg and you just touch a chest protector without bending your knee, without any force, but you make enough contact to make a point happen. That's not really the essence of taekwondo. Taekwondo is either um a full contact martial art that is deadly in its intent and deadly in its ability, or it's not. If it's a game of tag, then we're no different than point karate and any other sport that uses, and so I don't disagree. You can make the rules fair. It's equally as fair and sucky for everyone.
Speaker 3:But it hasn't helped taekwondo grow. And I'll give you my final example, and then I'll stop talking. Watch 1980, watch a game of basketball from 1980, watch a game of football from 1980, watch a game of a match of boxing from 1980, and then watch one in 2024. And tell me what the difference is. And watch Taekwondo. If you watch Taekwondo at the 88 Olympics, for example, and you watch 2024, at the 88 Olympics, for example, and you watch 2024, and you do the same with basketball, you'll see an evolution and a escalation and increase in technical acumen. For everything that I've mentioned, with the exception of one, taekwondo has de-evolved. Its technical regimen has de-evolved. Its stepping its strategic component has de-evolved.
Speaker 3:And it's because once you change the rules to ignore what you're trying to reward, if you don't understand what you are, then you can't create a system to reward it. So you have to say to yourself what is Taekwondo and what is Taekwondo competition. And if you say to yourself it's a full contact martial art where kicks hit with enough power to cause damage and that's why we need to wear a chest protector and headgear, then that's what it is. If you say that's not the case, then take off the chest protector, make an electronic sensor on the chest, take off, you have a helmet. It's the same thing, because all you have to do is touch enough to make a game and that's called the game. That's's a game, not a fight. So I still believe Taekwondo should be a fight and it should be rewarded as such.
Speaker 5:I agree, I'm going to go from where you started. I think, at the highest levels is not what bothers me. I think, honestly, if you're watching enough matches at the highest level, you see great athletes, you see great movement. You see, if you're watching enough matches at the highest level, you see great athletes, you see great movement. You see some good, some good countries doing some good things and some and some you know good moments. I think for me, where we fell off was the development from the bottom.
Speaker 5:I think when you start teaching, you talk about the techniques and style. When you start teaching a kid to do this because it scores, not because it's right, not because it's it's it's proper, not because it's actual. You know taekwondo, but we're doing this just because it's three points, we're doing this just because it's four points. I believe when we got away from the one point system, I didn't do anything to be rewarded more points. If I was going to hit you in the faces because your hands were down, if I was going to spin on you is because you came too wide. So that's that technical aspect that you're talking about, that we've lost. Now I don't really have to do. I'm only going to do what's necessary to score more points. I'm going to lift my leg and flick, I'm going to go underneath, I'm going to punch because I know the referees are going to press it in this moment. So everything we do is because it's going to give us more points.
Speaker 5:It's not necessarily at the lower levels where, again, I've watched some of the junior stuff and the cadet stuff and all that, and that's what really bogs me down to again. If you give them a little bit more, if you give them a little bit more understanding of, like you just said, why are you moving, why are you stepping, why are you changing? Why are you going underneath? You know, I mean, clashing was a bad thing.
Speaker 5:You guys remember when I used to train and you went back leg round kick and someone back leg round kick. At the same time you wanted to punch him in the face. You know you want to be like hey, did you not see my leg? It to back kick to the wrong side? All these things that you would just never do, that now are just rewarded because we get points for it. So I think for us, the part we've lost the most is that development of the kid side, the kid levels, and when we started doing cadet, world championships and all that stuff is, I think, is where it started, because you're forcing someone that should be in their development stages to go out there and win right now, and that never was the goal and that's where we are in the world. So real.
Speaker 4:Very well said, I mean it. You know, in, in and also along those lines. You know, tj is um, the, how many? Listen? I do seminars for a living and I know you do many of them as well.
Speaker 4:We get these kids and we see them and they have ability. They're tall, they're flexible, they're, they're motivated and we're just like they don't. But they don't understand how to stand, they don't understand how to guard, they don't understand rhythm, they don't understand movement. And you're just kind of like you, you kind of sit there and go oh my gosh, I can't believe that they don't know these things. And so you're right, we're skipping these steps to just to win, to just put our foot and touch the headgear. So it's cheating the system and we're not being rewarded for it. And now it's a downward spiral. So when do we cut off? Because, young, I'm going to tell you I'm watching historically good countries like Korea. I'm watching Thailand, of course. Now the Iranians have been good for a long time. The Russians, these countries, they're stepping, they're spinning, they're spinning, they're doing things and guess what? They're clicking up and they're ahead of the game. They're doing their own thing, they're not following and they're winning. Tj, correct me if I'm wrong, right?
Speaker 5:100%, 100%. I think everybody's wrapping back around the other way I mean, before it was in the beginning, it was in the beginning was that style of kick, kick, kick, kick, kick, kick, kick, kick, kick. Everybody's kicking, everybody's throwing, doing a lot of standing still and just fighting in whatever space they're in. But yeah, you watch some of the countries that he just mentioned. They're starting to move their feet, they're starting to motion and check.
Speaker 5:I mean for me, korea followed, chose a fight with uh lajust and then went to regular chess guards and you watch. I remember day who lee was there and you watch them cutting and flopping, like that was just what you could tell. That's what they had been doing for so long and we were on regular chess cards that day. So they're always ahead of the curve. But I mean I and I'm just just for me and I know I've been around coach reno a lot when we've, you know I've talked with him and been next time when we we talk a lot about motion and movement and why it's important I never, I never understood why we would ever, in any game, in any format, take our movement away. Why would I stand still when I can move and make it just that much harder for you to kind of figure it out, you know no sport is predicated on that.
Speaker 4:No sport. There isn't a sport that's predicated on that. It's always movement yeah you mentioned.
Speaker 3:You mentioned the koreans are ahead of the game. That's because they create the game. The game is designed by, not not created it. They. They changed the rules. They saw this.
Speaker 3:There was a case here where my friend was involved in it was polaroid. So what polaroid would do and he won a huge lawsuit 95 million, 92 million dollars it's in it's in the supreme court, kind of level stuff and what polaroid would do is they create the, literally create the uh processing of the type of film it was, and then they would release it for six months so they'd have a monopoly on it and no one else could do it. And that's what korea does. The kta creates and recreates the scoring system and the wt takes it, and then that's what you're seeing, right, you're seeing. That's what's happening.
Speaker 3:You know, juan, you'll laugh when you see this background. I know you can't see it. Actually, that's a background of how we practice Taekwondo. There's a guy laying on the floor because he can't breathe, and so the idea that Korea is better at it. All the other countries, I agree, they're stepping. I believe it's just a matter of time before. What was Taekwondo figures out? With the exception of a few things like Arlene Lemus right, she won back then because she was outside the box and did all this stuff. That was outside the box and that's still gonna happen. There'll be people that win for those reasons. But stepping and kicking with power and understanding how the chest protector works Although great fighters like Aaron cook, who I like a lot, he couldn't figure it out and that was a guy that was you know, he did figure it out though.
Speaker 3:He just missed it out, yeah.
Speaker 4:He figured it out, but he missed his window in 2012 yeah no, they, politically, politically, politically. They chose somebody else over him and he was the number one. Was he the number one dude in the world?
Speaker 5:in the world at that point. Yeah, he's the number one dude in the world.
Speaker 4:They, the wt, changed the rules because of him. But listen, I get your point, there's always going to be unicorns, but then there's just going to be the rest of us. That just certain things that you, you have to have and and that will. It'll be enough or it won't be enough. One last thing on this that I don't think we've talked about is the scoring of the rounds, of the round by round, because that was, I hate to say, but that was earth-shaking, you know, changing the instead of a cumulative points. I mean, think about, you went from paper scoring, not knowing, to immediate scoring with push buttons, to electronics, to now, all of a sudden, you know there's point gaps and now there's round one, you win, start all over and do it again. A lot like boxing 10 point mustism. That changed a lot, tj for me.
Speaker 5:For me, I think that was a better. I think that was a change for the better. I think that was a change for the better. I think that was a change for the better. I watched too many matches. You know they come out there and you're down 12-0. And I get it. If you're down 12-0, you deserve to lose that match. But like if you're, if it's second round and third round and you're watching the same match and you go back for two things I'm gonna say it made it better for the coaching, because I, I, you know, we've all been coaching, you've been in those matches. You've lost the first round by five, six points. Now you're able to reconnect and start back from zero, as opposed to giving a strategy to get back to even and then take the fight on. So I think that was a that was a good change.
Speaker 5:I I'm actually a big fan of the round by round. I like it just from, like I said, from a coaching standpoint, and being able to just change the dynamics of the match and not have to just conform to OK, now I got to go, or now I know this person is going to stand back. I mean, that's how we used to talk about. Ok, this guy's up eight. You know he's going to wait, so you got to go, go, go, go go. You got to them, yeah, and that's. There's none of that left and you know, anymore I don't see too much of that. But but my, my point with korea being, you know ahead, I don't really necessarily mean they're ahead, I just this country's like. I mean I'm always impressed with iran, iran, who always they always show up. You know they always, they always show up. They have people and and I think as long as that, that level of like, understanding and toughness is there. I think that's what makes this game for me a little unique.
Speaker 5:With the electronics, I mean, you see it played well, you see it played bad. But also, let's not. I mean, for me, even before you see good matches, you see bad matches. You see good people, you see bad people. I think the discrepancy for us is the top of the top and how low the low gets. That I don't think it was ever that big of a gap. I think the gap can get big, especially when we're talking about development and following through to the higher level. So yeah.
Speaker 4:So I got a question, a real quick question, like domestically, I mean again. So I mean, obviously we have some pretty high level coaches in this country, some that have come over, some that have been here, some that have developed um, tj. I mean just. I mean without, like you know, we don't, we don't have to. I always say this because we shouldn't feel bad if we, you know, know, we talk about somebody, good or bad. I mean it's just our opinions. But, like I mean, there seems to be a staff that's been put together for maybe the high level and then there's some staff for other competitions and there seems to be some people being added Like, in your opinion, how's a guy like you not not being being utilized for the US?
Speaker 4:I mean, I would like to say I, you know, put myself in that category, but I told you I work for another country. I have for the last five years they treated me well and stuff like that. If I was ever invited back, you know, I have to consider it, depending who's who's leading, you know what my role and stuff like that. But you, I know you coach hereically. You got one of the hot kids right now, um in in in a couple of divisions, two and one male and one female division. What do you think?
Speaker 5:I mean that goes back to. I mean, that's a listen, I, I I've worked with the organization when I was with WCAP and having to, you know, have my that more higher level, being able to travel and do all the competitions and everything, and um, it's just a matter of them wanting who they want and they want people that's going to conform to their style and conform to what they say and conform to what they do. And the reality is I've been again. I had a conversation with someone, um, maybe a couple of weeks ago. I'm like, look, I've tried everything. I've I've tried to get along, I've held, I've held stopwatches, I've helped run trainings, I've offered my guys up there, I've I've coached extra people. When I've been told that, like you know, I'm only here to coach a certain person, they give me more athletes, the reality is I'm not their guy. You know I'm not their guy. They don't, they don't, they don't have anything, they don't have any place for me.
Speaker 4:They don't they don't want us and they don't of around them.
Speaker 4:But, like again, in an individual we're a team.
Speaker 4:But in individual athletes, like I mean, I just don't understand why people don't see the value in somebody with your experience, somebody, that somebody's value of technical I mean again, not even talking about old times in a sense of your competitive career and stuff like that but currently, right now, I mean you gotta be one of the brighter guys in the country and to to get passed over for a cadet job or a coaching trip or a junior coaching trip or an open coaching trip or a Pan Am or a world it's got.
Speaker 4:It's a little bit crazy to me and I think that you know, going back to the betterment of the country, I think a guy like you, I don't think I know they would be better. I know your energy, I know your emotion, I know your love, I know your skill. I think that this country in particular would be better off with you on those trips working with other people, and I know you play nice with people. So it is what it is. But I just had to say that to you Cause I know we've talked about that many times, but I think people out there need to hear it too.
Speaker 5:Nah, and again, I don't know, I don't know what you know. That's, that's one of those things. Right, that's, that's kind of like the format. That's why I like this format straight answer. Like I said, it's just because I'm not who they want, I'm not their person, I don't know.
Speaker 3:They don't want you because they don't. They didn't have a voice because they didn't win and they didn't. We treated it like a professional organization. What that means is, if you didn't have value and you couldn't win, you weren't on the floor and, just like in the NFL, you couldn't produce, you didn't get your job back and that's it to be. To be frank, the medal count in the United States is pathetic and the men in the United States and their medal count and their best hopeful that was tick-tocking and wake-walking instead of training didn't produce At that moment.
Speaker 3:If you take that sort of talent because the individual is talented you fire the coach. You fire the coach, you fire the staff and you find somebody who can lead the organization to metal potential. So you don't let politics get in the way. Bella caroli is a perfect example. Without talking about what he you know the other stuff that's come up that was a guy to produce metals. He wasn't easy to get along with. He. Nobody liked him. Nobody liked phil carroll, nobody likes the coaches of the 49ers or whatever teams you can think about. I'm not there to be liked, I'm there to win, and when I said I like the Cowboys coach take them out.
Speaker 5:Take them, take rid of our quarterback to throw him out with them.
Speaker 4:They all can leave me a team of Cowboy fans.
Speaker 3:The last, the last person to win in that stadium apparently was Jake Paul, but the, the, so the. The reality is that that's kind of what it is. Taekwondo state in the United States is pathetic. It doesn't win medals and the men don't win medals, which means one of two things. We're incapable of winning medals because the athletes in this country don't go to our sport and aren't capable and they're not good enough. That's not true. We have more people. We have 330 million people and from that thing you'll get a ton of people that can do it. Secondly, you have the possibility that it's the staff or the organization, but I mean, this is going to be a topic for another day.
Speaker 3:I don't want to open that can of worms because I got two cans that need to be open. This is one of the two cans, but we'll get back to it it. I don't want to name anybody in particular. When you go outside your country for coaching staff, when you have better coaching staff in your country, you do a disservice to the country. That's not because I'm an outstanding patriot, I'm just a realist. We have, and continue to have, great coaches in this country that don't coach. The last thing I'll say and I just saw they published their list of best schools, and I'm kind of chuckling, because if that's your best schools and these are the best medals you're winning, then you got to get some better schools and better coaches, because if you can't put people on a us team to win, um, you know, I mean we're winning the pumse championship.
Speaker 3:I guess we could win. Who cares? We could win the Pumse Championship? I guess, yeah, we're killing Pumse. Who cares we could win? I mean, I mean that in the nicest sense of the way I could mean it. You know, we're producing dancers and that's great If we were in Russia and we're in the Balanchine Contest. We're not. We're supposed to be competing with full contact. Martial artists, mano y mano, men with cojones, you know. And then guys that you were afraid to see. I'm not afraid to see any of these athletes, I'm not afraid to hurt their feelings. I'd be afraid to hurt Jimmy Kim's feelings or Scott Moranis feelings or Juan Moreno or you, and so, anyway, enough of that, but I know we got to wrap it up.
Speaker 5:Final thoughts because we'll have more on this next week. I got one more question before we go, and this is for Coach Moreno and also you, sir, but like when we thought about, I think when I was growing up, we always thought about having you know, compare yourself to other countries with the centralized training system. Is this what we meant when we wanted, when we thought about having a centralized training system? Is this the vision that we had, like what it is now for a centralized training system, for a centralized training system?
Speaker 4:for a, for a developmental high level, all that stuff. You know I w, I was part of a centralized training system, I was part of the Olympic training center and I think that, um, listen, with success, you're always gonna have love and hate, right, you're going to have people that love it because they're part of it. You have people that hate it because they're not part of it. Um, I think that's human nature, but I also think that you needed both. In my opinion, both were established incorrectly. Both were established at the first one that I went to, before I went there, there was people there that didn't deserve to be there. They knew people, they knew people, they knew people and they were there and ultimately, that was the downfall, because then a lot of those people went away. Some good people came in. Then it got back to that and it just Rome fell this one.
Speaker 4:I think the intention was correct. Okay, let's have a high performance center with top level athletes, but that's not what we got. We got people picking people based on they liked them, they didn't like them. They saw potential. They kept them too long, they chewed them up and spit them out. They didn't like them. They saw potential. They kept them too long. They chewed them up and spit them out. They didn't develop them. So I think that people you know as well as I I got to go there because if I don't go there, they won't see me and I'll never be able to make the team.
Speaker 4:That is just that people think like that, true or not true? That people actually say that, and a lot do it, shows that the system is wrong. Something is not, hasn't been created properly and it's not being successful. So, if I listen, put me out there, give me a system like that for the last five or six years. I will guarantee you that I'll have better results. I will guarantee you. You give me a facility, you give me strength conditioning, you give me nutrition, you give me a budget, you let me pick the best athletes, put everybody in the room. It's a slam dunk, because I did that with nothing, in a warehouse with no air conditioning. So, um and again, call me a hater, call me whatever, but I think this is to answer your question. Question tj no, that's not what we envision, that's not what I envision, and I would be willing to have a conversation with anybody how it's at sitting right now if they said that's how you envision it. I just don't.
Speaker 3:I don't believe many people would say yeah, just like that well, that may be our, that may be our topic for next time, because I've got a lot of thoughts on it, having been in the room in the original and watched it and then, when we tried to fix it, I mean, we brought on a couple of coaches to fix it, and what I would call is nationalize the program with regional training centers. What I will say is you don't have the best and the brightest and the people that won medals running the organization and they don't understand it. So maybe that is a topic for next time. And the topic that won medals running the organization and they don't understand it. So maybe that is a topic for next time, and the topic could be how do you fix? How do you fix it? And that might be a great starting place for us next time.
Speaker 3:And the meanwhile, though, I want to thank everybody. This has been, as always, the warehouse 15, and it's not because it's 15 minutes. There's a reason we'll tell you about, but it has been real, it has been personal, and if you think that I was speaking about you and you thought it was personal, it probably was. But this is Herb Perez, this is Juan Moreno and this is TJ Jennings, and we are here and we are out. Thank you, gentlemen, thank you.
Speaker 4:Thank you Later.
Speaker 2:Yo line check one, two. This ain't no pool track or crew. This warehouse 15, where legends speak true. Three rings on my fingers go levels clean.
Speaker 2:But under this armor, life ain't always what it seems. Yeah, every drink, our push limits reach the peak, but the pressure could come boiled, man, some weeks I couldn't speak. Sponsorships and smiles, hiding them in a fight, sacrifices made, holy days and endless nights Stepping in the boat, feel the beat, hit my soul, used to the podium. Now, stories unfold. Yeah, I held my country's flag, felt the national pride. But behind the scenes, demons I had to hide. Injuries that lengthened the mental strength of your soul. Relationships shattered, losing control. I had to hide injuries that lengthened the mental strength of your skull. Relationships shattered, losing control. The price of glory, a heavy one to pay.
Speaker 2:Now, in this warehouse, I'm finally gonna say warehouse 15, bar and uncut no facade. We ain't here for trophies laying out the life we've had. The competition fears, not just on the field of play. Jealousy and envy poison it every day. Teammates come, rivals back standing for the win, fake smiles and handshakes hiding the sin. This ain't no fairy tale. This is the athlete's truth, the pain, the struggle, the forgotten. You, you and I. Fifteen walls are closing in, secrets revealed. Where do we begin?
Speaker 1:The normal pre-hour stands the normal meeting of lives. We are the beings. We're looking into your eyes, feelings get hurt. Truths will be told. Stories from the top never getting old. Welcome to the warehouse where legends confess the weight of the world off our chest. Remember that race where I took the gold, slipped my rival something story never told had to win at all costs. Pressure was immense. Now the guilt haunts me.
Speaker 2:No recompense, faded a teammate kept it all alone. Scandal would've been rough in careers would have had to go. Love and ambition, a dangerous game. Now it's out in the open bearing the shame. My coach pushed him far, crossed the line. Mental abuse disguised as making me shine, years of manipulation breaking me down. Now I speak my truth, reclaiming my crown. We're all 16, walls are closing in, secrets revealed. Where do we begin?
Speaker 1:No more PR things, no more media lies. Just three Olympians. We're looking into your eyes. Feelings get hurt. Truths will be told. Stories from the top never get ignored. Welcome to the warehouse where legends confess the weight of the world off our chest.
Speaker 2:Warehouse 15, wall and uncut, no facade. Warehouse 15, wall and uncut, no facade.
Speaker 1:Warehouse 15,. Walls are closing in, secrets revealed. Where do we begin? No more PR spills and no more media lies, just three Olympians looking into your eyes. Feelings get hurt. Truths will be told, stories from the top, never getting old. Welcome to the warehouse where legends confess the weight of the world off our chest.