Masters Alliance
9th Dan BlackBelt and Olympic Gold Medalist Herb Perez visit with the best and brightest to bring clarity to the future of Martial arts.
Masters Alliance
Referees Unveiled: The Crucial Role and Challenges in Sports Coaching and Competition Evolution
Ever wondered how a referee's presence can make or break a game? Join us as we share our weekend tales, starting with TJ's adventure at the DMV Open tournament in Virginia, where he witnessed firsthand the nuances of local competitive sports. Meanwhile, Juan recounts a heartfelt family celebration filled with rich cultural traditions. These experiences shape our discussion on the evolving roles in sports coaching, highlighting how recognizing and embracing one's strengths can enhance both personal growth and coaching effectiveness.
We shine a spotlight on the pivotal role referees play in ensuring fairness and quality in sports. Through engaging stories of referees like John Sieber and John Halloway, we explore how an understanding of athletes' intentions is crucial. Our chat delves into the importance of referee education, accountability, and the often-overlooked challenges they face. By stressing the need for clear communication and mutual respect in grassroots sports, we aim to foster a more positive sports environment for everyone involved.
Athletic competitions are evolving, and weight categories in martial arts and Olympic sports are no exception. We discuss the exciting shifts in weight divisions with athletes like Rashitov from Uzbekistan, who is making daring moves between categories. The implications of such changes offer both challenges and opportunities for competitors. As we navigate these dynamics, we celebrate the legacy of Jimmy Kim, whose remarkable influence continues to inspire athletes worldwide. Tune in for a rich tapestry of insights, stories, and reflections that offer a fresh perspective on the world of sports today.
welcome to the warehouse 15 podcast and it is personal and I am joined again by my co-host and colleagues and and friends in armor, friends in life and friends and warriors in martial arts. We got coach Juan Moreno. Yo yo yo and coach TJ Jennings. Tj Jennings, how are you? Guys doing today Good, good good.
Speaker 3:TJ Jennings Territory. So call me TJ, aka TJ, tj, tj, tj, oh, tj.
Speaker 1:So we're going to think better than DJ. All right, so we've been having a lot of different conversations. By the way, we're trying a new platform today, so tell us if you like the way it sounds or the way it feels and, more importantly, the way it looks. Well, I know, listen, I'm looking at your Batman, batgirl, batjoker poster. In the back it looks good, looks better than last week and they could name update too, sir.
Speaker 3:Grandmaster disaster. I changed my name for today. You got Nico dead right now. At the moment, he's the.
Speaker 1:Grandmaster disaster. Grandmaster of disaster All right, well, listen, we got a lot we want to get to today, but I'm going to start off today. Who's the Grandmaster of Disaster? Grandmaster of Disaster All right, well, listen, we got a lot we want to get to today, but I'm going to start off today. Who's going to start off for us today?
Speaker 2:What's up? Why don't we start with TJ first? How was your weekend? What's going on? It was good. It was good I went down to DMV Open.
Speaker 3:First time I've been back in Virginia for a tournament and I got to. I had like five or six kids go, so I'll just do the local tournament thing this weekend. It was pretty intense environment, a little bit smaller space, a lot of good action, a lot of interesting things. But you know, fun leather less you know. So long weekend it was not a Sunday, but good Tournament on Sunday. Tournament on Sunday, like for the local. Yeah, I flew in Saturday. Tournament was on Sunday, got done around 9 pm. It was a pretty long day, pretty long day. A lot of decent talent from around the area though. So it was good. It was good to be in that environment again and I got to see my parents as well. So it's always fun, coach Moreno.
Speaker 2:I had a great weekend. Actually, I stayed home this weekend. I went to one of my athletes, which is a young lady's 15th birthday, kind of going into adulthood, womanhood, if you will, in the Latin community, in the Latin culture, so that was pretty cool. And then on Sunday, one of my good friends, ruben Gallon he was a national team athlete back in the day. He's like my brother, his grandmother turned 100 years old. I actually posted something on social media and I said, yeah, I've done a lot of things in my life, a lot of cool things that I think about, but I've never been to somebody's 100th birthday. And man, I tell you what. I just sat back there and and watched everybody. There was one lady I was talking to. She was in her mid-80s, she just got back from thailand, she's I mean I thought she was like 65, 70 max. I mean just her energy, and I was like it was amazing and they're cute. You know, most of the people there were of cuban descent. So there was some great food, great music, people dancing. It was really cool to be a part of so and a fun time with my family and and my, my friends, family as well. So that's pretty cool.
Speaker 2:But I'm curious to talk a little bit about this tournament because, uh, I I want to talk about maybe some, uh, some athletes moving and and there's, um, uh, we talked about different levels of coaches last week, remember, we're talking about, you know, there's I don't think there's any shame in being a a senior coach or a junior coach or cadet coach. If you're good, you're good. And I think some people need to be feel a little bit more comfortable, confident that their, their line happens to be here. Not many people can can be good in the whole spectrum and that's not a bad thing. But, um, I like to talk about some athletes kind of changing and maybe, you know, even, like you know, refereeing kind of officiating from high level to all the way down to the low levels. But yeah, I don't know if that sounds like a good topic or not.
Speaker 3:I'll start on that. I got a question about like refereeing and like I guess I say, gameplay. You know, in general, do you, do you find that the value for our local level referees would, would mirror or look like the, the value of like a au basketball or like a youth basketball team, soccer team, like, do you think that we have a lot of? I don't know, I always feel like we got issues within our thing, you know your, your son.
Speaker 2:I think it's a perfect, perfect test. Your son plays high school level soccer. Let's just say that because he's in high school, like I mean, obviously you don't know about pro level soccer officiating, but like, when you go to your son's events, I mean generally speaking, do you think that the officiating is at a decent level? I mean, come on, there's always going to be calls that we think are weird, weird, but do you feel like there's blatant incompetency at that level?
Speaker 1:no, I mean, my son plays mls next, which is a very high level of soccer. So if you were looking at it in terms of a national sport organization, um, my son's at the qualifier level, let let's say, of refereeing and participation. So the difference, though, is that the MLS next referees are curated and trained and given games based upon their ability, and so the refereeing is pretty standard and the understanding of the game is very sophisticated. So we don't, we don't suffer, although, you know, depending on the day, the parents might think differently on different calls, of course, but in general, the referees, first of all, are fit, because they got to run for 90 minutes and you know they are astute.
Speaker 3:Do you think they're all volunteers? Do you think they're all volunteers, though, like I know, we have a lot of volunteer referees. You know we we get guys that understand the rules to a certain level and we allow them to referee. I guess I'm asking not at the qualifying levels when you're you're being looked at or scouted, but more so like if you showed up on a Saturday to a local level event, like do you think they're, like I said, their boys' soccer team or girls' soccer team or basketball team? Do you think they have that many issues throughout the game? You know the clock not getting started on time. You know all the little stuff that we deal with.
Speaker 1:All the referees are paid. They're not paid a lot of money, but they're paid. They're trained and paid. Even whatever the sum is, it's not a tremendous amount of money. They are depending upon the level of play. So my son started at AYSO, which is basically, you know, local tournament, then he went to club level, which is higher, and then he went now to MLS next, and this weekend we're at Yale for a prospect camp, right? So that's been his journey Along the way. Those referees are trained, they all understand the rules, they all understand how it works and they, for the most part, all the control of it is in the center referee's hands.
Speaker 2:No, for me, listen, tj, I would sit there and say I mean, listen, I've been to I'm going to say low level, young level wrestling tournaments and jiu-jitsu tournaments and, for sure, baseball, basketball, soccer. You know my whole life man. I know they're volunteers, you know, I mean, you know I've been to those games where those kids are five and six years old and you know there's a high school kid refereeing and you know some dads or coaches are like come on, you know that was a bad call this and that, but I know where you're going with this. I feel like we could do better.
Speaker 2:I know the volunteers, local tournaments, trying to get people in. But sometimes you get these pretty good divisions, let's say senior, maybe high-level, junior, and you get these for lack of a better term local referees that they're not sophisticated enough to deal with the coaches and the athens. You know I'm saying they're the third lowest level person in the ring right. The athletes are higher, the coaches are higher, and then you got this referee and that could be problems. You know troublesome not just to take care of the match itself but coordinating with like a stop.
Speaker 2:you know a person that's on the clock or video review, if there is video review you know.
Speaker 1:So the best advice I got you know was from Sifu Paul Vizio, one of the most successful kickboxers in the world and, quite honestly, the man responsible for my Olympic success, and what he said to me is don't complain about the referees, he says, because once you're onto the arena, you allow that person to judge you. Now you may be a fourth, fifth degree world champion, gold medalist, whatever. This guy may be a guy, a weekend warrior, never stepped in a ring, never did whatever, but you put yourself in his hands. In one sense, it falls on us to accept that. The second part, though, is the organizations themselves that want to perpetuate better sport, better athletes and performances need to step up and train those referees appropriately, and if they don't, then that's on them.
Speaker 1:So when you have bad refereeing and I've seen good and bad refereeing, and we all have Leon Preston, grandmaster Preston, he just said something to me which I've said to you guys before the rule of the ring is the referee's job is to keep the game beautiful. It's his job to preserve the sanctity of the game, and that means he needs to prevent actions that make it less beautiful and promote actions that make it more beautiful. So when, when you're looking at it from that perspective, it's different um. But the level of refereeing in the united states is um is lower and the refereeing of of the, the training of the refereeing, is not terrific. Referees, as we've talked about before, are taught a million warnings. They're not taught what a point is. They're taught how to give warnings.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but they don't need to know what a point is. I mean, technically, they don't need to know what a point is Technically they don't any longer.
Speaker 3:Technically they don't any longer, but at the point when we were competing, they needed to know what a point was and they had no idea because they hadn't. I think it was better back then. I got a lot of when it comes to that type of stuff, identifying points. I think I guess my biggest thing wouldn't necessarily be about the referees. I just feel like maybe our game is so complicated in a sense of how many deductions and how many things that we have, but the understanding of what's happening and what should be happening or how something happened is just crazy to me. Like you know, you're watching matches and you see things like it's hard to even explain. You know they press the wrong, someone tried the spin and fall. They don't score the spin, but a point goes up and it's a punch point and you're like you're trying to explain this to them like happen and they're telling you it's a legitimate punch and it's like it couldn't have been like.
Speaker 1:Well, they don't. They don't understand the game and the reason they don't understand the game and this has been forever in refereeing they didn't do the game. So an athlete's perspective and a coach's perspective and a referee's perspective are different depending upon the experience of the referee. And we talked about this coach moreno and I when we were running the program for um, one of the national governing bodies. We wanted to get the referees, the athletes and the coaches in one room so they could work together to get a common understanding of what occurs. You can't and this is truth back in the old days, when you were scoring it on paper and punches and buttons, you couldn't score it. The game is happening too fast for a person to be able to push the right button at the right time. The game is happening too fast for a person to be able to push the right button at the right time. Now, with the electronic scoring, it's better and worse for different reasons, but at least it can score what they think the game is, but not the technique aspect of it.
Speaker 2:So go ahead. Coach, I want to go back to what you said, because I disagree when you say that the referee's job I I think I know where he's coming from, but he said the referee's job is to keep the game beautiful. I don't think so, I really don't. I mean I don't think in in in the wt they always say to get what are the two things? They say tj to make the game more friend friendly yeah, they go dynamic yeah, and I'm like your job is to make a fair game.
Speaker 1:That's it, if I can block for two minutes and then score one point and you might want me to, but you know this too right, so think about this for a second. What is the best game with reference to a referee, when the referee is what? Non-existing you don't even know he's there existing. You don't even know he's there. You don't even know he's there. That's the best game, when the referee doesn't do anything to interfere well, that's what I was gonna say.
Speaker 2:Like so for me I don't think it's their job to make it beautiful, it's just to make sure they that people you know are fair, transparent, all that stuff. But, tj, you asked about like, uh, you know certain referees and things like that, or no, I'm sorry, coach me are young. You said that for me. Like I remember there was one referee and I'll say him by name, and right now he's a chairman for USA Taekwondo, but John Sieber, I think. When he was young and he was coming up, I enjoyed the way he refereed because I think he understood sport, not Taekwondo. Of course he knows Taekwondo, of course he knows Taekwondo Sport. He knows football, he knows basketball, he knows baseball. He understands that. Okay, I'm winning, I'm trying to preserve my win. You're losing, you're trying to go. So I'm not stalling, I'm defending, he's not pushing, he's trying to create. Do you understand what I'm saying?
Speaker 2:I think good referees understand what fighters are trying to do. I don't believe that you have to do. You have to fight in the sport to be a good referee. But if you didn't fight, then you better educate yourself on other fighting sports and what people are trying to do, because, again. I know boxing and wrestling and whatever. Some of these people never did the sport and they could do it at a high level. I think there's some good referees that never actually fought at a high level. That could be good referees, but there's probably a lot more that haven't fought and are not so good. So John Halloway was one of my favorites back in the day when I was young, coming up, and John Seaver, like I said, I just closed my eyes. I remember thinking this guy knows what each dude is trying to do, each gal is trying to do and he's within the rules. He's letting them do it and then, if he got out of control, hey man, I got to pop you with a deduction.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's again. Maybe we had I hate using the word higher quality or better understanding, but I did a lot. Obviously, just like you guys, I higher quality or better understanding, but I did a lot, obviously, just like you guys. I did a lot of local tournaments when I was growing up, a lot of small ones and I, for us in aria, I had um also on master bernard robertson as well as one of the referees.
Speaker 3:I feel like all the calls they definitely didn't go my way, they definitely didn't fall in the direction. I'm like maybe this was it, but I feel like I could understand where his call came from and I guess that's more important for me as a coach now than as an athlete. Everything's against you, like no, that wasn't it. Fine, you can believe that, but as a coach, you're sitting in a chair and you're trying to understand. You know how we got here, what the situation is. I don't think the referees are they're not the ones at the lower levels of the game maybe or the volunteers, or I don't know what, or I don't know what about this?
Speaker 2:What about people taking responsibility? Listen, I know we're volunteers, that's a big one. I know we're volunteers, but you know what? If you're a coach and you I'll use a good word you mess up, you get sanctioned. Well, some people get sanctioned.
Speaker 2:Some people can say whatever they want and they didn't get sanctioned. But that's another story. For another time A coach I said that if an athlete does crazy, you get sanctioned. If a referee blatantly messes up, knowingly or unknowingly, if they mess up, what happens? Like I mean I hear oh, they got sanctioned for a tournament, oh they nah, stop they're, they're back at the next one matter of fact sometimes they get elevated, but and that's that's a tough one for me.
Speaker 3:That's my thing too. Like I know, you go to local tournaments and I try to treat it like a learning environment. Like you just said, coach as well. Like I know, you're allowing people to judge you and you're allowing people, if they're the third person in the hierarchy level, all those good things. So you go to local tournaments. It's just a training day. It's just a training day. It's just a build through the, the championships or whatever you're going to go to, but I think even at more. So why is it that? The coach I feel like the coaches have to take it like that and be willing to accept anything and everything that happens throughout that match.
Speaker 3:But sometimes even at the local, small level, these referees are like this and like they act like they can't explain anything to you. They don't, they don't want to talk to you or like like what you're saying could never, ever make any more sense than what they think already. And that's the crazy part we're dealing with. You know you got a lot of high level coaches in a room. Coach that our levels and these kids have been at to do their. Do these little local tournaments like people need to educate them on? Again, I don't know if it's coaching or teaching, but just understanding the situation. There has to be value on both sides.
Speaker 2:I'm crazy for you, young so again, because I love to talk to you now, because you're really entering into, you know sports, some mainstream sports, obviously baseball, basketball. You know football, soccer. They're mainstream sports in america, so you're seeing it. So my question for you is like why and I understand we're a martial art, but why I don't think I know another sport correct me if'm wrong that a coach, or athlete for that matter, cannot interact with the referee?
Speaker 3:Or it's like bad, his view is bad.
Speaker 1:So the problem? Here's the problem. So the martial arts and this started with the Koreans, the martial arts have always been a hierarchy of senior versus junior and so when you're a senior to someone, you're older, whatever. You can't question your senior.
Speaker 1:And the problem is that in this particular sport, they want to elevate these referees that may or may not be senior quite frankly, most of them are junior to me to a level where they can't be talked to, talked at, talked with, because then you're disrespecting the culture of martial arts and what we've seen in that across the board, including some things that are going on right now, is a total disregard for the athletes and the coaches and the community and the country and everything like that. It started with a hierarchy based in Asian philosophy where you don't question your elders and unfortunately that's not sport. That's maybe martial art and you can accept it as such, but it's not sport and that is the cause of that problem. And other sports, like soccer, for example, maybe they go over the top, right, you'll see athletes and coaches and then the ref will warn them stop, enough, enough, enough.
Speaker 1:and if they don't stop then he'll get a car to get thrown out of the game. But the coaches and you know coaches, and I mean refs are human and they need to be. They need to understand that they do make mistakes and you'll see you know, we all see that where they compensate for their mistakes. But this is one of the things that happens organizationally and culture-wise, it's one of the bad transfers that we've gotten. There's a lot of great transfers we've gotten of the culture and maybe some cultural appropriation, but the nationalism that resulted in this has not been great for us as a sport.
Speaker 1:The referees In a sport and I'll say this because I've always said it in a sport that teaches life skills and tenets of respect, humility, honesty there's certainly a lot of that missing from the sport in terms of leadership and refereeing right with electronic chest protectors, is referees cheated, not made mistakes. They cheated. They cheated on behalf of countries, on behalf of schools and you and I trying to get out of this country. When we were young. We couldn't get out of this country, and why? We had to beat not only the opponent in front of us, not his coach. We had to beat the system where we were not from a particular school, we were not a particular ethnicity, we're not particular whatever, and that's a, that's a, that's a very um, that's a scarlet letter for our sport.
Speaker 1:That continues. And Korea, by the way, had the same problem and it was outed by EJung Woo where he talked about pruning of the tree. It happened in Korean Nationals. You and I have been to Korean Nationals where we saw players kill another player but he wasn't leaving the country because he wasn't. That's why the original sport we have another sport in Taekwondo called chair throwing and table tossing. It's not a Gaelic sport, but you go to Korea they started it You'd see guys throw tables and chairs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but they never hit each other, you'd see guys throw tables and chairs yeah, but they never hit each other, no. No, it's a pushing cookie. Yeah, I get it Listen that being said I'm sorry to you, I was going to say I'm not talking.
Speaker 3:I understand at those levels. I'm not even talking about the qualifying levels or even the state level and all that stuff like that. I guess maybe I'll overshoot, maybe I'm going local tournaments to be a little bit different when I was younger, or like understanding of the game. There's always extraordinary referees, there's always new referees. I don't think it's a good or bad, I think it's an experience thing, but I just find it's that one-sidedness that you were just talking about and I think I try to find myself to be respectful. I try to start off, you know, try to be respectful, understand the situation that we're in and it and it never fans out that way. You're almost it's because they won't let you.
Speaker 2:You get offended, tj, and I'm not saying you. People get offended when you actually have a legitimate question, and that's all you're trying to ask, or you're trying, please explain this to me, and you're not even putting your, you're not even throwing your weight around. Hey, I'm an Olympic athlete, I'm an Olympic coach.
Speaker 3:You're just saying with and then you're like it's not even that, or the best one is like will you say something to one of them and it's just like this.
Speaker 1:Oh, they don't even know. Listen, I go to.
Speaker 1:We used to my kids my kids want to go to the Stanford event. They have a Stanford scrimmage here and then they have, you know, stanford, which obviously needs money, right, but the Stanford Taekwondo program, which is, you know, the bastard stepchild of Ken Min and his group of of Ne'er-do-wells. They create these events and the kids all want to go to the Stanford event because it's Stanford, right, they don't realize that it's who cares, but they get these referees in Stanford that are all Stanford students and every time we went it was horrible, refereeing terrible. So God forbid. You say something to a ref, so I go up to this ref and I go. That's not the rule and the ref kind of gives me a hard time. At that point I'm going to put down my massive foot of. Well, actually I'm correct and you don't know what you're talking about. And so we got to a point with the Stanford event.
Speaker 1:I don't send my people. Why? Because refereeing is terrible and why, in part, because they were taught that culture from Ken Min, where they can't be questioned and they understand the rules. And so what I do? I vote with my dollars. I don't send my kids to events where they can't referee. I don't send my kids to events where there's a hierarchy that prevents people from getting fair treatment to whatever, it's weak hierarchy that prevents people from getting fair treatment to whatever week. And that's the only thing we can do and that's what I encourage people to do if you have bad refereeing, don't go. Just just don't go, don't send your people. Now see understanding. If you don't have enough refereeing, they're going to put 14 year old kids hopefully in with the five year olds problem.
Speaker 2:I think that's a problem. But I'm talking about tournaments, referees and stuff like that. What do you think about? There's something here domestically that I think is a little strange that they're allowing people that are qualified in one category to go up to another category Again. Historically they've never done that. I mean, if you qualify in welter, you fight in welter. You qualify in light, you fight in light. This up and down and stuff like that I think is I'm not quite. I don't really understand the rationale, but I just I think and I know people have said, yeah, but they're juniors and they grow Again then wait a year. I mean, it is what it is.
Speaker 3:Are we talking about juniors?
Speaker 2:or seniors it is what it is, but let's just say for seniors, because really what I want to get to that's just kind of a side I want to get to that. There's some big names, moving categories. I wanted to know what you think their potential is when they change categories, but first the change of the weight categories. Let's say, on senior level, let's keep it easy.
Speaker 3:I don't know. I think, from what I understand, if it was because of the start of the quad or something like that, some, some, some explanation. That for me, honestly still doesn't make sense, since we started the whole rest of the year doing things a certain way. I think that's. I think that's the important thing for me as a, as a, as a coach or as as having been a high level athlete. I think we had a two lower answers. Things don't change so rash, uh, radically that you're like okay, now, now this is a go, now this is a go, now this is a go, now that's a go.
Speaker 3:You know, making that national team in the United States historically, always when I was competing, was a hard thing to do. It was a hard thing to do but and I think what made it even feasible for me to get there was at least the rule structure was the same, like there were very few random changes and surprises that just flipped the script on a lot of things. You know what I mean. Maybe I think you have different people with different goals. I think the organization in itself has has a goal, whatever they're trying to do, and that's cool and all. But, like I think you gotta, for me, I don't like it. And again, I come from a generation where you know I was at nationals and you know I get the team charge and there was two or three wild cards there. But honestly, it happened and I and I can get it and it was almost the way it was written. It was justified that it could happen this way and I and I'm and again, maybe did I like it?
Speaker 3:no, I didn't, because these are guys you knew, at least you knew I knew, you know, and now and now it's a little bit for me from a coaching standpoint, it's a little bit weird because I mean, if you're not being strategical about the matches, you're going to fight a team, charles, and you're not really coaching, you're just hoping to for it to happen, you know. So I'd only get it on Not one bit, not one bit what about changing like that.
Speaker 1:You know, like we had, it happened to me on one particular occasion and the individual's passed away, so I won't mention his name and it was based on a relationship he had with the national team coach and his family had.
Speaker 1:But it wasn't correct, it wasn't correct. Years later we became friends. But had and uh, it wasn't correct, it wasn't correct. Years later we became friends. But during that period of time what I did? My my solution, because I was capable of it, he was a welterweight tried to. They just moved him up. He had no record in middle, barely had a record in welter, because he couldn't beat, uh, jay warwick, um, and moved up to my division and I punished them. I put I punished them and sent them home, like on two occasions it was the 87 pan trials, um, and I made sure it was very visible. I mean, back then, when matches were won, one point, two points, I beat this individual seven to zero and um, and then just punished them and then looked over at the individual that was responsible. So I don't think it's correct.
Speaker 1:I think you got to earn your way and people do this all the time. If you want to be in a particular weight division and you want to carry your record with you, you can't. You got to go in and make your own record. If you want to qualify, go and qualify, step up and qualify. Now in most situations it proves out. So let's say you try to, you're a welter and you move up to middle or you move down to light. And the last time we had a big one was the first time they combined all the weight divisions, so that would have been 92, right 92. When they combined all the divisions, the lightweights all moved, I mean the welterweights moved, and the other weights moved.
Speaker 2:No, they didn't combine the divisions, that was just the divisions that we were allotted.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but you had to move right. So you went and they qualified. So if you remember all those guys qualified, none of them got gifted in Like lightweight was yeah yeah, yeah, they had a qualification.
Speaker 2:What I'm saying is there was still eight-weight categories.
Speaker 1:Dude, what's up with all those tattoos? Put your arms together. What the hell, what the Holy.
Speaker 2:Jesus, this guy. Look at that bad boy.
Speaker 1:He's not moving his shirt, so you know what that means no, but let's take this right off. Calm down, calm down, calm down, calm down, calm down. I down, calm down, calm down.
Speaker 2:No, but I know we don't have a lot of time. Let's just maybe touch a little bit on the weight categories, because there's a lot of Olympians TJ in 58. So, for example, vicente Junta from Spain, jun Jung, are moving up to featherweight Two. The Olympic silver and gold medalists are moving from 68 to 80. There's a couple 80s moving to heavy. Like what do you think? Take a division, let's talk about it real fast. I mean, I think it's kind of a for me it's really exciting, but I think good is good.
Speaker 3:I think if you're good, you're good, I guess, as did you think the and again, I haven't really looked at across the board, but do you think that the, the weight classes, are normalizing in size again? Are we going back towards like a more athletic welterweight as opposed to a taller, linkier welterweight, and those welterweights have gone up to heavyweight. Do you think that has anything to do with it at all as far as like switching just from a weight standpoint?
Speaker 2:first, yeah, I just think some people grew out of the divisions. I think some of the guys that were in there were kind of young and they just kind of grew, whether they're 68 going to 80 or 80 going up. But I do, you listen, I still think it helps to be pretty good size, good leg length, but you're finding some few. There's a new 58 guys from Korea. There's a short little dude. This guy can fight. I mean, this guy can fight the 80 Korean guy. Same thing. But I'm really curious to see Rashitov, the two time defending Olympic gold medalist in 68, from Uzbekistan going to 80, and I'm gonna call it. I don't think none of those dudes wanna see him. I don't think none of those dudes wanna see him. The dude's tall, he's. He's gonna be stronger. He's 80 tall. He's 80 tall. He's not Simone 80 tall. He's 80 tall. He's not Simone 80 tall. He's taller than CJ, he's taller than.
Speaker 2:Enrique from Brazil, and he's longer. Listen, I think he's going to be good. I think the silver meds, zaid from Jordan, will have a little harder time because he's a little undersized. I mean, historically people that move up don't do as well, but I think there's going to be some interesting dudes.
Speaker 3:And who else went from? You said middle to heavy, excuse me, welter to heavy.
Speaker 2:Thala from Jordan. He also went up. They have a hard time. Who else went? Someone else just went up. I mean, when Cissé went from welter to heavy he had a significant impact with his speed. Oh, the Norway guy. He went from 80 to heavyweight.
Speaker 3:I like that for him. Yeah, I like that for him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, me too, and he only fought heavyweight during qualification for like five months. So I think give him a little time to put some weight on. I think give him a little time to put some weight on. I think the boy could be interesting yeah.
Speaker 1:He's huge.
Speaker 2:He's 6'6", 6'7".
Speaker 3:I agree. I think for me I'm more Three times. To do it in two different divisions will be interesting. That'll be the first time, right? If he runs it back again at 80, he's got to be the goat, he's got to be the talk, right.
Speaker 2:So you know one of my favorite fighters. A lot of people know. You know exactly who he is Ha Tae.
Speaker 1:Kyung Ha, tae Kyung.
Speaker 2:I was about to say yeah, he fought flyweight and welterweight in 80 and 92, like that difference, and he actually fought heavyweight and came back down.
Speaker 2:He won two gold medals, but in this era this is a lot different. This guy's going to go First of all. There's never been history, man or female to win three Olympic gold medals. Not Steven Lopez, not Hardy. Hardy got two golds. Hantai Kang got two golds. Wu Jin from China two gold. Another Chinese welterweight two golds. Hantekang got two golds. Wu Jin from China two golds. Another Chinese welterweight two golds. My mind's like I shouldn't. I should be better at this right now, but anyway. Steven Lopez like nobody. Danny Pack.
Speaker 3:Danny Pack has two, two golds. Yeah, two golds. Yeah, I don't know, but I mean hands down for sure. If he runs it back in 80 and wins the whole game, he's got to be the GOAT. I don't think, I don't think, I don't think we have that conversation, no more let me put the under in right now.
Speaker 3:Boy could be my retirement it's gotta be, it's gonna be a tough. I think it's gonna be tough, though I think I think his size was important at 68 still too. You know what I mean and, like coming into, I would say you said a medium to normal size, maybe about the same size. I think we'll see what the longer players, if you can still be dynamic and long with them and push them back. But definitely definitely excited.
Speaker 2:But when he fights 74, he runs the table. So I think it's, you know, I think he's going to without having and listen. It's not going to be easy, but I think he's going to be just fine. I think he's that special dude, to be honest with you and I also we talked about this certain athletes not trying to throw shade, they come along at the right time and they win at the right time. You know, they miss some of these legends that are getting old. They miss some new guys that are coming up and I think that welterweight division, it kind of cleared, aren't so dominant. And this guy is just the opposite. He's young, he's 22, three. He went at 17 or 18. I think I don't know what he was, but he's gotta be under 25. So he's, he's young, but he's got that swag. He's young, he's got that street cred. He's young, he's got that experience.
Speaker 1:So I don't know man, I don't know, man, I think he's going to be dangerous. The GOAT will be and always will be and will never change for me, jungkook Young. So I'm going to apologize to all of you. You can talk about all these new guys that are foot fencing, but the most, in my opinion, the legend will continue to be Jung Kook Young, the guy.
Speaker 2:For me, he's the man Joe Rogan says Joe Rogan, I like what he talks about. He goes when people throw around the greatest. He's like you got to talk about the greatest in their era at that time and measure it. Because not when people go downhill, but like in their prime. In their prime, who is the best?
Speaker 1:Mike Tyson, michael Jordan Don't talk to me about. I don't want to talk about the other guy. I don't want to mention his name and that basketball stuff In soccer. Messi, you can go back. I'm going to ask you the tough questions I'm going to ask you the tough question.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the tough question, here we go. But if you had to, maybe it's an answer for next week, but you had to choose your favorite current Olympic-style fighter right now with the foot fencing, what you call it electronic In the electronic era if you had to pick one guy that stands out to you like I, like him because of this. He's like this, he's like this. What aspects about him carry over from like the old school check window to new school.
Speaker 2:I want to hear young, I want to hear you're like you're. He says foot fart, foot fart, foot farting K pooping, k pooping.
Speaker 1:So let's be clear, it's not going to change because the current president, if the KTA, had elected Kim Sayuk, the KTA is what wags to WT's tail, so the KTA is what wags the WT's tail.
Speaker 2:So the KTA would have created a style under.
Speaker 1:they did. And young Jim Bond one, and he's, he's the genius. He's the genius that came up with this style of fighting. So I was hoping Kim say up one, because then it would have changed. So the foot farting Kate pooping um foot fencing your favorite?
Speaker 3:Don't answer my question. I foot fencing. Well, who's your favorite, though? That's my question. I've got to be honest.
Speaker 1:I've got to be honest that I can't. I don't watch it. So for me, I do have one, but it's not. You're not going to like the answer. Uh, aaron cook. Aaron cook would have been my guy and and that, but that shows you how old I am. That's we talk about philosophy. I'm in the torchbearer light phase. I'm not in the current phase of trying to make athletes, and I give that to you guys. I have coach Moreno in from time to time to help me so he can teach my guys to foot fencing.
Speaker 3:I take that I take that. I take the Aaron Cook one, but I think, cause he was at the end of, he was at the end of 2012, 2013, all that stuff as well, too, I think so here here's the game was still a little bit more yeah, but here's what you can ask yourself who's the most?
Speaker 1:who's the most un? Who was the athlete then? This is a good question who was the athlete that had the most potential and you watched him and you went wow and then didn't have the best result, like I'm always amazed at that question, like in the united states, clay barber right, I look at clay barber, I look at james viassana.
Speaker 2:These are guys that were have the best result.
Speaker 1:Like I'm always amazed at that question Like in the United States, clay Barber right, I look at Clay Barber, I look at James Viasana. These are guys that were just technically, you know, excellent to watch. There was a kid that Juan and I saw coach and I saw in Hong Kong. He was from Chinese Taipei, it was a Bantamweight and he went through like a million people and then just he battered his legs so badly, couldn't make it to the finals. But these are the kind of kind of guys that with the right kind of coaching, right kind of opportunities, right time like how many guys did jungkook young retire, like in korea and internationally, that they couldn't get by?
Speaker 2:we'll never know their names. We'll never know. You'll know their names and coach'll never know their names.
Speaker 1:You won't know their names, and Coach Moreno too, and you so, like Stephen Lopez, you know, to his credit, vacated that division for eight years Like how many years he was in it. People just couldn't get through him. And there were a lot of great fighters.
Speaker 3:They still showed up, though they showed up.
Speaker 1:They fought him every time. Favorite fighters was jason han. Jason han, great fighter, great techniques. I just couldn't get past certain things until he, he moved or whatever.
Speaker 2:So um, but you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Listen jason was my roommate. I kind of mentored him.
Speaker 2:His dad asked me to look after him. He was a phenomenal athlete but he never reached his potential because I don't think he did enough, like I. I mean he's he had it all, but I don't think he let go. I don't think he had that. That I mean and it's saying a lot because I have a lot of respect for you want a silver medal. Yeah, he was. He was maybe faster than anybody I knew, but best fast kick, best fast kick I ever saw but you always like kind of sit there and go what, what?
Speaker 2:why does he man? He could do more. You know, I'm saying like right.
Speaker 1:So and that's a conversation for another fact go ahead.
Speaker 3:I was about to go down memory lane. I was like when I was on junior team we got a chance. They took the junior team out to otc to train with like the senior team. It was pretty. I remember that being. He was there for I got to step with him the first day I was there a couple other national team members, but those those are cool moments too. So I actually got to see those facets and see those shots and see the smoothness at that level in a training setting. That boy was fast. Yeah, he was different. Yeah he was different.
Speaker 1:Listen, you know and coach, you say something that really matters. And the question is we all know these guys, the best fighter in the dojo, best fighter in the national, best whatever but then when it comes time to perform at the highest, highest level, they don't win, and the reason they don't win is they don't perform. And so is fighting about technique and ability and possibility. I wish it were, because that would be a different thing. Fighting is about winning and how you win and what you do when it's tough. When do you show up right, do you show?
Speaker 3:up. Do you guys think winning is different, has a different meaning than it did before? I mean like and I'll be honest with you I know you made a couple of comments before and I'm like you know Costa Rica, we went to the Olympic Games to get a gold medal. We went to win the whole thing. There was no question about wanting to win the whole thing and it didn't, you know, with the third place medal there and obviously super proud because we put a lot of work into the process of it.
Speaker 3:But I think now, with the continue, are you willing to say, like with the continued points before it wasn't no points. Before you showed up and you could get a random bracket at the world championships, there was nothing to protect you from whatever would happen. Maybe it was like you mentioned before the pruning of the brackets, that you couldn't be protected from none of that. You had to be good on that day, no matter what, like that was it? No matter what. But I would say, and the only fulfillment you got was winning the gold medal. There was no. Oh, I got 15 points because I got second. Oh, I got 13 points because I got whatever it was. There was no, nothing to fall back on. So when we use the word winning, are you considering, or do you see it as a part of it now, that maybe third place is more important in the number of competitions that we compete in now? We, we, they do 20 or 30 as opposed to the four or five in a year? Does that, does that does that sway your idea? Obviously we know what winning is like.
Speaker 3:I even me right now with the, with the medal somewhere, my medal sitting right there. That's not the one I've wanted. That's not what I went for. I didn't win the whole thing. You know what I mean, but I know, I know there's a lot, but that's not what you wanted. You know, and everybody knows, everyone knows me. I've probably said it a thousand times, millions and millions of times, but do you think, can you rationalize, that winning is a little bit different now than it was then? Like you know, like there is something that you take away something from each individual competition as far as, like, ranking points and being the number one in the, in the, in the country or the world or nation, whatever that stuff means. You know. You're asking me yeah, of course.
Speaker 1:Yes, I. I'm just not the right person to ask, because I, I, I'm, you're hard, I'm hard, I'm, I'm brutal like I, you know, like I didn't. I, I used losing as a, as a learning lesson and, you know, sat in a corner and cried. I only took home gold medals. I don't have a single silver or bronze medal in my house. They all were left at the event or or somewhere else.
Speaker 1:I, I, I mean, I'll show you what no, no, I would have kept that one, and that's the sole difference. If you win, there's one bronze medal.
Speaker 2:You have to if you you, you win a bronze or a silver at the Olympics.
Speaker 1:That's a keeper. I would have kept mine, to be honest. But anything else I don't have a single. I don't have my Pan Am. I have a Pan Am gold medal. I don't have a Pan Am silver medal. I have a Pan Am silver medal. I don't know where it is. I think it's in Cuba still. So I didn't take it home, but that's my mentality, because that's where I was. Now I will say it's different and I'll tell you this I don't think that I could do what people have to do to get a bronze medal at the Olympics this day. I couldn't fight through it. I wouldn't have the mindset to fight through a rapid charge.
Speaker 2:I don't think I could even if it meant points you would have had to, you would have to go home. I know what you're saying. That's not the DNA in you, but the DNA in you would make you get up and do it. You just couldn't.
Speaker 1:You would somehow, someway I know what you're saying, but you would change, you would do it.
Speaker 2:TJ I want to say something. I had a kid today. He said man, I don't understand. He was talking about rush stop, that nobody fought him at the Olympics. Everyone just stood there. He's like I don't understand. If you go to the Olympics, even if you fight the best person, you should go and just you should fight. Like what do you go there for? And I just sat there and go. This kid is awesome. Like I love that he said that. But also making the team is not as important anymore. Why?
Speaker 1:Because these kids got too many. For any team the.
Speaker 2:Olympic team is different. I'm going to say the national team. Let's just say national team. It's not as important. You know why? Because these kids, I'll go next week and fight in Cuba. Next week I'll go fight in Paris. Next week I'll fight in Italy. Next week I'll fight in Korea. They know, when we were, you didn't have shit to do.
Speaker 1:Your ass stayed home for a whole freaking year yeah I didn't cry you didn't make, you didn't make the team, you didn't get out of the country. I mean and here's the other thing like you, what now in this and I mean this in defense of the athletes it's impossible to peak you. You can't peak for every event like I couldn't. I don't even understand how they do it. I like you, we used to fight. I fought every weekend when I was coming up. Every weekend we fought in the tournament. But once I got to a certain level, my coaches were like you don't fight every weekend, you fight in three events a year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't even know how how they do it. To be honest, that's a that's another problem with the WG different topic for another day.
Speaker 1:But they're show ponies now and they don't get a choice. And I said this to my wife about football the other day because they're complaining about this 49er guy that didn't get on the field. Older cat didn't want to play he forgot what his job was.
Speaker 1:His job he's not an athlete, he's an entertainer. So you got to decide are your athletes, fighters or entertainers? If you're an entertainer, then you, you give it your best, you go, you fight to the last minute. You, you, you, you fight for the bronze medal. You do all that stuff. If you're an athlete, you, you do what they call in in sports stand on your business. If it's not in your best interest, you don't do it. Like, if I'm an athlete and I got to fight three weeks from now and I got to fight a bronze medal match and I don't need it, I don't fight it. You know it's a different thing. But I was always that guy that you know. I fought everybody. I fought when I didn't need to fight. I welcomed the guy to come in and have another beating if he wanted right, if I didn't need to match right. That was just my mentality. But I wasn't. I wasn't. I wasn't Patrice remark, I wasn't. You know we, we didn't mention this guy in the in the conversation.
Speaker 1:Jimmy, kim, jimmy and his prime. You know I haven't seen a heavy. I haven't seen a heavyweight. I didn't want to fight Jimmy. I wouldn't. I wouldn't want to fight Jimmy if I were a heavyweight. I had never seen anybody that fast and that strong and that that that good at what he did. So you know it's a different world, different time, but you know the the the rules have changed so much, the game has changed and then the qualifications have changed. So you are getting a different kind of an athlete and I'm not sure I'm sure you're getting better athletes. I'm not sure you're getting better fighters.
Speaker 2:Well, listen, going to Jim, I mean we should probably wrap this up, but Jimmy, jimmy was an icon and Jimmy was a special person. Like from everything he did from technically, to power, to speed, to to running, to jumping, to lifting weight he was an icon, he was unique and you know there's just a certain group of people that saw him do that and you know I was lucky to see his final competition and I was, I mean, just a special man. Love the guy.
Speaker 1:Love him. Well, this has been the Warehouse 15, and it's been longer than 15, but that's not what the 15 stands for, and you have had the pleasure, and maybe privilege, of listening to TJ, as he wants to be called, today.
Speaker 3:Coach Moreno, third place, I didn't. Bronze TJ I'm not saying it, I'm not saying it. Bronze TJ, that's not what I said. Bronze TJ, I'm not saying it, I'm not saying it. Bronze CJ that's not who they are. Bronze CJ, I have bronze medals.
Speaker 1:I don't know where they are, but I have them. Trust me, I have them and I'm proud of them. I think I won them in some big events, but there's nothing wrong with a bronze. It matches the beautiful tints you have on your face today of the purple light and where is the Batman. And then we got Coach Moreno, and this has been Herb Perez. I want to thank you all for tuning in. We'll be back next week and only better and bigger.