Masters Alliance
9th Dan BlackBelt and Olympic Gold Medalist Herb Perez visit with the best and brightest to bring clarity to the future of Martial arts.
Masters Alliance
U.S. Team Trials and Taekwondo's Future: Navigating Weight Categories, Talent Development, and Leadership Challenges
Ever wondered if the "capital of Taekwondo" could be right here in the U.S.? Our latest episode takes you to Portland, Oregon, where the excitement of the U.S. Team Trials unfolded. We kick things off with a heartfelt reflection on personal growth and the importance of those who challenge us in our athletic journeys, highlighted by a memorable reunion with former Olympic roommate Naeem Hassan. The Warehouse 15 podcast continues to grow, and we're giving you an exclusive peek at some exciting merchandise coming your way, all while emphasizing the power of open dialogue within the sports community.
Shifting gears, we unpack the ripple effects of weight category changes on athletes. This episode delves into the challenges and triumphs faced by competitors like Will Cunningham and Maya Mata, spotlighting their standout performances and the evolving competitiveness across divisions. We also raise critical questions about the development required to secure a robust future for the sport. Our discussion touches on both the men's and women's divisions, offering insights into the shifting dynamics and necessary growth areas.
Finally, we take a hard look at the complexities of the team trials selection process and the leadership of USA Taekwondo. Pondering whether the current system truly identifies the best athletes or favors those who can endure, we offer a critique of the organizational structure and decision-making processes. Amidst these discussions, we celebrate exceptional young talents like Nathaniel and Joshua, emphasizing the importance of nurturing the next generation. Join us as we explore the challenges and celebrate the promising future of Taekwondo, highlighting the excitement and potential that these young athletes bring to the sport.
all right, folks, we're back. We are back. It's the warehouse 15 with three of america's best and brightest, and we're talking about tj. How you doing, coach? Good, good, what's going on? How are you doing? Sorry, can't complain, can't complain. And then we got the inimitable, unrepairable, uniquely qualified coach Moreno. How you doing, coach?
Speaker 2:Nice.
Speaker 3:Apparently it's Corona time wherever he is.
Speaker 2:Well, it's apple juice man. Come on, man, I got to stay hydrated man. It's Corona time, wherever he is. Well, it's apple juice man. Come on, man, I got to stay hydrated man.
Speaker 3:That's a nice head on that apple juice. So, gentlemen, how you been? I hear that you guys were at a few events and then the first word out of their mouth was the Warehouse 15. But, more importantly, I'm going to let people know we're going to start a contest and I'm going to figure it out by the middle of the podcast, and there's going to be merch that you can win your first warehouse 15 t-shirt which may have some, uh, similar sayings, like coach Moreno shirt, and then we're going to get a coach mug for you, warehouse 15,.
Speaker 3:Most important part is you take it to events with you so people know you can represent. Well, let's get started today. Who's going to start it off for us today?
Speaker 1:College. That's on you. I'll follow you. Let's go.
Speaker 2:No, just quick, kind of up to date. Everything is good had a great weekend. I traveled to, obviously to Portland to support TJ and a couple of the athletes that we work with, so that was pretty good. I know we'll get into that. Yeah, just excited I mean I got to say before we get going, I talked to each one of you guys and I think TJ you kind of heard too.
Speaker 2:I was surprisingly happy how many people talked to me about the podcast and I know we're just getting started. I know it's a work in progress, but it was just everybody seemed like they really liked it. I mean, some people that I didn't think would care to listen to us or listen to our views and stuff like that. So it kind of threw me for a loop and I was, like I said, pleasantly surprised, had a couple of conversations about it and you know, I kind of just reiterated what we said from the beginning.
Speaker 2:I said, listen, I think it's time to question, it's a time to talk about some things, good and bad, give props where they're needed and throw some shade where it's needed. So it was pretty cool to actually hear that from some of these people I won't call out their names you know, because I'm not saying they spoke to me privately, but they actually came to me, of course. But just leave it at that. We had some people that were pretty interested in. Everybody was, I think, overwhelmingly supportive and and and like the direction that we were going in. You know that we, or at least that the, the podcast itself was going in, so I thought that was pretty cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I had some great conversations throughout the weekend too. I think it's always good when you get around people you, you know the coaches in that environment, you know team trial is always a special, special place for you know a lot of things happen at team trials a lot, of, a lot of directions are changed, a lot of people, divisions are changed. So it's always a good time to be around people that are trying to fight for the same thing at that point, because at that point everyone's in the same room wanting the same thing. That's always.
Speaker 3:Those are the good conversations in a real conversation well, I think that's going to lead us into our first topic for today, because I know you guys just returned from the us team trials and um. I heard they were held in the capital of of taekwondo, and where were they held again?
Speaker 1:portland, oregon, capital taekwondo was it?
Speaker 3:were they in portland oregon they were in portland oregon oh, I thought they were down down somewhere else. Well, that's, that's good. I like portland. It's a great city, great donuts, they have top donuts.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I'll just send you a picture. Guess who I ran into.
Speaker 3:Naeem Hassan.
Speaker 2:I saw him from a mile away. I walk up. Man, that guy looks amazing. Tj, that was actually my Olympic roommate. He was a competitor with, uh, grandmaster Perez for many years. He's just a great guy too. You know, he's, he's I think I forgot what he'd say, but he's 67, but this dude looks like a baby. His body is great, his, I mean, he just uh, it was unbelievable. It's cool. So, anyway, that was just kind of cool.
Speaker 3:I could tell you that I saw him in an airport in Chicago and I recognized him from the bottom and the top of an escalator, ran into him, said hi, and then I noticed that he was doing photography. He had a passion for it, yeah, and so I bought two of his photographs. I have them in my living room and they're signed by him, and for me it's a great reminder. He was the metal that sharpened my sword. We sharpened each other's swords and we became the athletes that we became, and he was an Olympian in 1988, great competitor made me who I was and hopefully I helped him become who he was, and so I leave those two pictures up there as a constant reminder to myself of the times and the people that challenged me. And I actually told my son that story, because some people would wonder why you would hold that picture of a competitor in your house, of somebody you fought. But you've got to be thankful for those people. They're the ones who make you who you are.
Speaker 2:So I always remember the names of those people and always try to honor them, don't you think more than that, like it's, the man that he is is too, because we both had some competitors that we would like to never speak their, their, their name again. But this guy, he's just a class act, dude. I mean, when I was young he took me under his wing. You know, we were, like I said, we were teammates. He was much older than me and you know, just watching him eat and watching him study and watching how quiet he was and how we went about his work and I I'm already at the Olympic level, but I just got something from him and it's been like that ever since, you know, ever since. I mean that was his last event was the Olympic Games in 1988. But just a great man, great family, retired, travels, like you say. He's got the hobby of photography nowadays. So anyway, just a kind of side note, it was cool to see Shout out to him.
Speaker 3:We got to send him the podcast because you know he is uh, he's always in my thoughts in different ways and he's actually good idea. I wrote about him in, uh, in my books. I wrote about him and I tell those stories about he and I, um and cause, we had the good fortune to be on the Olympic sports festival team together. He was heavyweight and I was middle and then he moved down to middle and we became competitors for a number of years. But, um, let's, let's talk about the team trials which were up in Portland, oregon, home of top donut, next door to Seattle, which is the home of voodoo donut, and that's the biggest war between two donut companies in the history of mankind Duncan donuts, not mentioned or used out there at all.
Speaker 1:Do you like Voodoo?
Speaker 3:Do you like donuts? I'm not a donut guy, but if I'm going to have a donut, I mean Voodoo is kind of over-the-top, kind of whatever.
Speaker 1:I'm going to give you a glazed donut, like Krispy Kreme's glazed donut, is a basic sample all day. I think so. Dog bits and all baguettos and all that stuff on top of that. It's a little bit over the top.
Speaker 3:That's why you got to go to Top Donut if you're in Portland, because it's a regular donut shop and good coffee spots and they always do them in these really cool spaces. Voodoo Donut now is at Universal Studios. So if you go to the Universal Walk you can stand in line for two hours to get a donut. So $69.99,.
Speaker 1:You can have a donut with bacon on it.
Speaker 3:And maple syrup and maple syrup in honor of our Canadian brothers. But let's talk about the team trials. I heard it was interesting to say the least. So who wants to start it off?
Speaker 1:today. You got it, Coach. Like I said, I'll follow up. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Listen, honestly, I mean, truth be told, I was only there for one day. I went there to watch one specific person. I watched everything else online. I mean I was kind of a fanboy the other days because, because I'm interested, you know, I mean I really um, um, I really like to see the talent and and that kind of stuff and see what's uh, what's going on, and I mean I'll start, let's just go day by day real quick, you know.
Speaker 2:I mean I think I'm gonna give you my, yeah, friday was the olympic weight category um, designated olympic weight categories and I'm just going to be honest, man, I thought the level was was horrible. I think there was about four or five good matches, you know, and again I'm not. I mean, I know we always say we're not going to, you know, dog out athletes and stuff like that. I think the guys that were good were good, but I think the other ones I don't know what. What's going on. You know, I looked at the men's heavyweight and it was very difficult to watch. I watched.
Speaker 2:I really I think, if I saw, I think there was a 68 match that was good, there was a 49 match that was good, and I think that's it I mean, and maybe a 57 match, yeah maybe like one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think those three matches that were good and I just Are you saying when you say good, are you saying like as far as like the competitive between the two, or was it like just because one person was going? You know what do you mean by that, yeah, competitive.
Speaker 2:I mean just two good athletes going after each other. You know there was a couple matches. There were some certainly good fighters. Obviously you know watching CJ fight. I mean he's phenomenal, but um, the level that he fought against was absolutely you know, really a big, big, big gap.
Speaker 2:I think, um, I just I don't know. The divisions were small, they were not competitive, like I said, and four weight categories for men and four weight categories for women. There was basically three to four good matches total. I think that's a little bit scary. If you're developing a country.
Speaker 2:I have some questions about you know the whole process, about you know, I think the USA, you know the USA Tech, want to ask athletes to move into these four weight categories per gender, the Olympic weight categories, because they want to kind of focus on them. All right, not a bad idea. But I think in the meantime a lot of athletes that weren't necessarily fitting in those categories were going down or going up and they just didn't belong there. And you know, with the points resetting after two years, I think there was some athletes that were hurt by trying to squeeze into some divisions when they would have been much better off fighting in their normal weight categories. That would happen to be the off Olympic division. So I'll start with that. I don't know what do you? What's your opinion of that TJ?
Speaker 1:I think I mean I, I 100% understand it because obviously you know, we're, you know, because our sport is based off of, you know, weight and height and we get all weird with that stuff. I think we started making moves and doing things. I saw some people go from a division that they were a little bit confident down to a smaller division, you know, maybe to have the advantage, maybe because of what they were prioritizing. I'm not sure you know what I mean. I'm sure that maybe both of those mix a little bit, but for sure I think we just shifted it it. So if you had, I mean we'll get.
Speaker 1:I know you talk about the first day, but we'll get we talk about the second day, of how the comparison between the 74 division and the 68 division, like the number of people in the 74 that were like competitive, I mean it was a like I think last podcast I said I was really interested in seeing how 74 played out because there was going to be a lot, of, a lot of talented people in one arena and I think that fostered a lot of good moments and a lot of, I think, growth in that division and growth for a lot of athletes in that division that day.
Speaker 1:So I mean yeah you know what I mean, so you know.
Speaker 2:The good was good. The good was good. I mean, listen, let's go from the men. 58, will Cunningham. You know he's a little bit more experienced than everybody. He pretty much walked through the division. I think he's 2-0 all day. Yeah, 2-0 all day. I think the big match of the day was let's call it what it is. It was Michael Rodriguez, the young kid from Miami that you coach.
Speaker 2:Tj against Clefani, the reigning national team member for a number of years in 68, the Pan American Games gold medalist, grand Prix medalist, I mean probably one of the most talented athletes that America has. And you know they fought it out and quite honestly it was. I'm going to say it was close, but I'm not going to say it was real competitive because I just didn't see anything out of Kafani. You know I mean what we know he's capable of doing. So when I know a person of that stature kind of fight that way, it um, it threw me off and and that's not to throw shade at him, maybe it's more towards Michael, I mean Michael, I mean you got to give credit where credit's due, and I know again, it seems like my guy and I'll talk about the other people in a second but let's be honest, michael fought three under-22 Pan American tournaments recently. Six matches on one tournament, five on the other two tournaments. A Grand Prix level athlete he beats a Spaniard and a Turkish athlete that are just young, rough, that step to him. I think Michael was primed and ready to fight anybody and he didn't look worried, didn't look nervous, he looked like the guy in the driver's seat. So I don't know if it's changing of the guard, but a shout out to Mike Rodriguez because he stepped up really big.
Speaker 2:Cj, cj was just dominant, you know. I mean I think that there was a huge gap. And you know if I have a criticism on CJ, I mean he was playing, he was having fun, he was doing a lot of big stuff. I think he could have been a little cleaner. I think he gave us some points. You know to some people that he probably didn't need to, but it's really hard to judge just because the level is so bad. And you know John Healy again, you know he had two or three matches that were just 40 to zero. I mean how do you judge this kind of stuff? On the women's side, I think Maya Mata fought awesome, you know she beat one of her nemesis, you know, and Milena Daniel, milena Daniel.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I know they go back and forth. Faith beat an athlete that we work with from time to time, Caitlin Cox. She was pretty solid and pretty clean. I have to give her props too. She did her stuff and she didn't look stressed at all. Welterweight didn't have to fight and heavyweight had two matches.
Speaker 1:I think it was two matches.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it was two matches. Yeah, I think it was two matches. I don't know. I just think if that's our cream of our crop for the next couple years, it's a little bit uncompetitive. Let me say that.
Speaker 1:I'll go back to when we started at 68. That's my division. That's the division that I think I've seen the most of and felt the most, just because that's the one I competed in for long. It's always a special division to see contested at any point. Uh, I know you. You kind of mentioned it after the match was over. I think that was a stressful moment for both, both athletes. I think it's that moment that you know those are the ones you know. We got two formal people in the same division looking to you know, compete against each other. But I was, like you said it afterwards, I think there could have been a little bit more from both sides. I don't think it didn't. I saw no fireworks go. You know what I mean. I think it was a very controlled match, to say the least. You know what I mean and, like you said, it was a. It wasn't. There was no big pushes, no big sways of energy in those in that match.
Speaker 1:My guy Michael, michael Myers, like you said, he's a tough kid man. I know his story a little bit more than most people. I've seen him kind of like where he started Obviously not you, but I've been around him when he was a kid training with us and doing all those things like that growing up. So I'm always proud of that and I know those moments and I've been in the opposite side where you're chasing a guy in that situation trying to, you know, be that guy on the team.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean and you know as far as the Califani side of things I mean, that's man, that's the price of, like, the price of being the king. You know what I mean. We got to keep growing, we got to keep moving forward and trying to get better. You know, if I'm being quite honest, it's just that 68 division for me not so much, not so much as far as like, like you said, I felt Michael's confidence going in. I felt just ready for that moment. I felt him ready for that moment in anything and that's tough to see sometimes in some of these crazier divisions but he was locked in and focused.
Speaker 2:Let me ask you a quick question. Young like so I'm gonna say I think they should have been two out of three. I think it was a round robin and and they basically just had whoever had the best record, which, okay, I can see that, but if you're trying to find the best of that day, really. And if I went through and I'm the number one, okay, I just got to beat you once, but if, like I think, honestly I think Michael and Kefani probably deserved a second match, another match, I agree.
Speaker 2:I agree I mean I couldn't believe that they did a round robin but they didn't seed the people number one or number two, you know.
Speaker 1:At the end of it you're saying right, you're saying at the end of it like once the, once the. Yeah, that was strange, especially for me. I'm gonna go in that direction, especially for me, and that some of the smaller divisions, I think you gotta almost run it back.
Speaker 1:You have to run it back and it has to maybe two more, two or three more matches. I mean, you know not to throw it back, but I remember doing some of those pan am Game trials where I fought eight times in a day to make one team and I had to prove it over and over again and I dropped the match and came back and hopefully, ultimately that was what I needed to do. But I agree, I think across the board, that part of the format for me wasn't the greatest. I would have loved to have seen another match.
Speaker 2:I think there was three selection procedures. Number one if you had more than right, that was number one. Number two if you had four or under, it was a round robin and then whoever has the best record makes a team. If there was only two, it was two out of three. Who won the best? Two out of three? I just think that in general is strange to have three different formats in a team trials oh, my division fights like this, but your division fights like that. Mean, I know it got away because you know we'll talk about the last day how big those divisions were, but that's again, I think that's an organizational problem. To be honest with you, I mean, why would you have three different scenarios for one team?
Speaker 1:you guys remember how it was before, like what was the number that made it round robin or double elimination? Because if one, it was either round robin or double, and those are only one, it was either round robin or double elimination. Those are only two, right, the two options we only had six people max.
Speaker 2:There was only six people max ever.
Speaker 1:Oh, always at the trials, ah, okay, okay.
Speaker 2:Four people from nationals and two wild cards. And it didn't have to be two wild cards, it could be one, it could be none, you know they.
Speaker 2:So you always had a minimum of five fights. Now, sometimes that didn't plan out, because maybe you two beat me and I got two losses. I'm like I can't even make it work, right, I can't run the table, I'm out, you know. So sometimes you might have a bow out later on, but you, you always had four or five matches. So that was right, young, that was that's how we did it. We actually even have to. After the round robin we had a month later, just so in case somebody was hot that day and we're kind of doing something special, we said okay, if you're really good, come back and fight in a month, do?
Speaker 1:you remember?
Speaker 3:that.
Speaker 1:So the Wait, re-explain that part, the come back and fight in a month, part Sorry, sorry, we do a round robin Yep, I'm fighting the month part.
Speaker 3:Sorry, sorry.
Speaker 2:So what happened? Yep, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 3:So this, all this all started back when we first became a Pan Am and Olympic sport. So there was a feeling that they wanted to make sure the best athlete made it through the process and if he was injured on that particular day she was injured on a particular day they would have another opportunity. So we started fighting the top four spots at nationals and then the top athlete from last year who was a team member got one of the wild cards and then another wild card, potentially for somebody who didn't make it through the qualification process.
Speaker 1:So the top six the previous year's team member was considered an automatic wildcard for the next team Automatic.
Speaker 3:Automatic wildcard. That meant in reality one wildcard, unless the previous year's athlete did something else and left or stopped competing which could happen right, especially in an Olympic year. Then they changed it Originally. Originally you would fight that day and then you would fight. The top two would fight again. The number one seed wins once it's over. Number one seed wins twice. Number two seed wins twice he wins. So you had to beat number one twice, or you had to be number one and beat number two twice, but that was all in the same day.
Speaker 1:So you potentially had Number two won. Yeah, number two won, yeah.
Speaker 3:So you had like potentially so they decided that was not the smartest thing to do because you weren't spreading it out, you weren't getting the benefit of the best athlete winning, you were getting the benefit of the most durable athlete winning, which was part of the problems with the original trial process at nationals, um, with the exclusion of the fact that you were competing against someone who, um, might not be good and you got injured early. So when we went to the second format, that was four, three, six weeks later, you would number one and two would come back and that was, in fact, the team process for the 88 games and moving forward, and you'd fight that individual Win once you win and this is not uncommon, this is from judo and many other combative sports and it works. So here's the question for both of you, and here's a rhetorical question which may not have an answer. In order to yield the best athlete, there are two things, in my opinion, that have to happen, and I'll set it up this way the environment in which they compete has to be competitive. My son just returned from a Harvard ID camp and a couple weeks ago he went to the Yale ID camp. When we showed up there were 80 athletes there 80, not 60, not 20, 80. In the top two groups there were 30 of the top athletes in the country, I would argue. The next level down um, we're good too. And then the next level, the last level they were okay, um, but what it forced happening was you're now in a room with 80 guys who are good at soccer and you're forced to compete at a very high level in a training environment, and that's how you yield their, their process. Let's say you got the top 10 athletes in the country together, or the top 22, so they could play a game that's not as good as the top 80. And the reason is the deeper the pool, the faster you have to swim to stay on top. So the reality is that if you don't, in my opinion which is the question, is it better to have a more arduous team trial process that's deeper, with more athletes competing in it, or is it better to have a handful of athletes competing, athletes competing, and so, and I'll say one thing about the CJ problem CJ's problem is created by USAT and himself.
Speaker 3:They've anointed him person in that division or he's won that division so much that nobody wants to fight, and we've had that in our sport, by the time I got to 92, guys didn't come. They just didn't show up, and if they showed up they didn't really deliver. Same thing happened with Jay Warwick for a while. Probably happened. I don't know if it happened with coach Moreno. Um, but depending on the division, athletes just by nature move out of it. They don't even try to win the division.
Speaker 3:Jimmy Kim is probably the next best example. He didn't have six or seven athletes that he had to compete against. He had one in lightweight, though. You had six killer lightweights that came, showed up and were capable of winning on that day and you had, as a result, arguably one of the best lightweights in the history of in my opinion, of the sport. James Viasana came out of that pool. So you got to ask yourself your question of what the end goal is and there's more stuff. I know we want to talk about the team trials on, so I don't want to get stuck on this and is it better to have a deeper pool with more qualified athletes, or do you just have the two or three anointed ones show up? And you know it's a pro forma thing?
Speaker 2:I mean, I'll just say first of all, for whatever reason, we don't have those 10 people deep in our country, and I'm not saying we don't, but they're definitely not showing up. And you know, there was a promise. You know seven, I don't know, we're in 25. So six, seven years ago that this country was going to be four or five people deep in every division, am I right? Tj? That was the mantra, that's what we're going to do, but it's just the opposite. We have less people, we have less competitors.
Speaker 2:Hopefully the tick is swinging back on the cadet and junior level, but right now, on the senior level, we don't have that. And yes, some of it's because there's some weight categories that are just a little bit more normal. Right, there's way more 155-pounders than there are 220-pounders in Taekwondo. I'm just using those numbers, I don't know if they're actually correct. So there's more featherweights than there are heavyweights in this country. So some of that's no one's fault, but it's also it should be the obligation of the organization to find those people, and I don't feel like they have. And so now we're in this quandary of finding these divisions where we're one in two people deep, and let's not even talk about athletes that were world level, Olympic level, that either left the sport, I'm going to say prematurely, or didn't decide to show up. I mean again, I just think that's a problem with our sport. I mean, if I got Terrence Jennings-.
Speaker 3:But you said it, you said it earlier and you're saying it again, and here's the fact. You said it, you said it earlier and you're saying it again, and here's the fact. So what is the role and responsibility of a national governing body? To deliver the highest quality athletes it can to the table in the pipeline. And so when you don't do that, I mean, listen, we're a country of 330 million people, soon to be 300, maybe, because yesterday they had an inauguration. I think both of you guys are going to back to wherever you came from. But, um, that's a joke, of course, um, kind of.
Speaker 3:But the reality is, has the organization delivered? I got to do something, make people you know whatever wake up. So has the organization delivered on its promise to build the sport, either in membership and grassroot development and in the pipeline? And the reality is, I don't believe it has, because when we were competing and Taekwondo was less popular, our pipeline was full. There were 110 people in every division that mattered at the trials or at nationals. And when you went to a team trials, six guys showed up, not three, not two, not one. Six, yeah, we're all qualified. Yeah, we never, never.
Speaker 1:That didn't ever ever happen, like you're right never I'll say just real quick, I'll say from uh, competing in that system and that that having to deal with that, um, I I did feel like I had to always remain competitive. I had to train, I had to keep training. I didn't, I didn't have time to take breaks. And, even more interesting, I remember coming back from the Olympic Games and fighting a world team trials right afterwards, after getting third at the Olympic Games in London, I came back and I was in that next team trials process and I might have been seeded first. Maybe I don't remember, coach, I might have been first seed for that competition, I'm not quite sure. But I mean, I think that kept me, that kept me motivated, that kept me locked in. And again, if we're changing quads, I think everybody should be all divisions to be up for grabs. Again, if we're starting from zero, there should be.
Speaker 1:I don't believe in any protected division. I think they go right back into the system Like, why not early? It's so far away from the end goal of this, end of this quad. We're going to have a point reset in two years. Why are we protecting divisions this early? For what reason Does it make any sense? That's there. You go with the, you have 80 to compete with all the way back down to now we're here. This number. We've already kind of shut the door on some divisions We've given leads out, when I'm not even talking about whether they deserve the leads or not. There's no point to start. Let's start from the same place. If we're allowing people to shift and move throughout these divisions for the growth and this, that and the other, then same goes for every division. They all should be up for grabs and compete in it. So that's why you go back to why 80 looks the way it is with the smaller divisions. Now it's 67. I guarantee it follows the same suit earn your spot or go home.
Speaker 3:that's the reality, so you don't have to love or hate the sport. But you know, um, and it's kind of it's very timely for me because I have this conversation with my son, who is forrest gump all the time and he sees sunshine, flowers and life as a box of chocolates, right. So if I was sitting down with any of these athletes, you know my conversations would be. By the way, the men's team historically, for the past few quads, has been worse than the woman's team and that's never been the case. You know, we we always had a very strong men's team, um, and the only time the women out meddled the men's team was when it was a lot easier to be a woman, cause it just weren't a lot of women in the world doing taekwondo Do you think our sport is tougher in guy divisions right now?
Speaker 1:In what divisions, coach, do you think our sport is tougher in guy? Do you think our sport is currently tougher in male divisions across the board, not per country, but just in the world, I guess total.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, if you ask me point blank, I got to say yes. I mean, first of all, of all, again, the size of the divisions are just, it's not even close. Um, and yeah, I mean it's just, there's just more quality of, you know, male athletes than there are female athletes. But I mean that's not to say that in most female divisions there's not a good 10, 12 people that could win. You know, pretty regularly you know the men's, there's probably 20, you know. But I mean, if you have to ask me which one is deeper, yeah, I mean it's men. Men is deeper.
Speaker 3:But women's no joke either. But let's, let's talk. Talk about that for a minute, though. So I mean, I hear this often and so I. What I'm going to say is this the divide has always been there, and the divide when we were competing was originally korea, originally Korea, then it was Korea, spain, iran, then it was Korea, spain, iran and maybe a handful of others, depending on your division. But the divide between Korea and America was real and huge. And so if you want to talk about there's just there is a divide.
Speaker 3:I don't disagree that there's a divide. What I'm going to say is this the divide is real, it's a question of a divide. I don't disagree that there's a divide. What I'm going to say is this the divide is real, it's a question of how many and what. So I don't believe the divide between our best athlete and the best athlete in his division it may be from a different country is any bigger than the divide it was for you and I versus Korea. There may be more people. So the excuse is that the world is getting better at taekwondo. I just I can't stomach it. That's a good point, it's a good point.
Speaker 3:You got to be real and you got to keep it real. You know, let's be clear, the top athlete in the United States, arguably going into the Olympics, didn't perform for a bunch of reasons. Second, the organization itself is a second and third tier leadership organization and has just rehired the second, third and fourth tier guys again for four more years. And they don't understand winning because they didn't win. And they don't understand winning because one of them's a salesman and not a, not a sport professional, so, and he's not a good salesman because they don't have any members. So now you're looking at them to lead your effort to be the best in the world. Well, let's be clear, they don't have a person like Bob Gambardello, who took and studied and understood sport performance and knew what to do to get it. They don't have an athlete that's one at a high level that can do it, and they don't have a CEO that can do it, or a COO, for that matter, that can do it.
Speaker 3:So, at that point, who's leading the ship to correct what's happening now, which is, by the way, let me be clear USA Taekwondo is a submarine, it's not a schooner, it's not floating underwater and it's definitely not a spaceship. It's not going into space, it's a submarine. It's going underwater stealth-wise, taking its best athletes with them and not performing. Now, nobody needs to like that or hear it, but that's reality Perform or get out of the room. And the fact that the board of directors ignored that and rehired the same clown show, well then, you got exactly what you're going to get. This is the three-ring circus and this is the end when the clown show shows up. And instead of three people getting out of the car, now you've got 12 clowns getting out of the car.
Speaker 2:Expect the same results. Listen, I mean I want to talk about the rest of the tournament. I mean, as far as that, just my little comments, you know, is they made a big deal about him coming back for four years and possibly, you know, another four years after that, which okay well, and I, which okay well, you know. And I thought it was a little bit interesting because, quite honestly, you made some comments on social media and everyone's entitled to their own opinion. I just think it's interesting that and again heard it from the horse's mouth supposedly somebody resigned, publicly, resigned to the board, and then comes back, you know, a number of months later to a bigger contract and stuff like that. I mean, I don't know if that was a negotiation ploy, you know, good on you if that's what you're doing, but it seemed like, you know, somebody had a foot out the door and then, you know, came back, and if the board brought that person back. I think it's pretty interesting after when you hear all the little talk behind the scenes. But anyway, before we get to the last day, tj, I want to ask you did you watch any of the cadets? Did you get a chance to go to the cadets? Because I just want to give a shout out to two cadets. I saw two cadets and one. I know both of them.
Speaker 2:But there's a kid from Denver, colorado, that trained with Coach Yosvany. His name is Nathaniel. This kid is the real deal. I've seen him at a couple camps. He is much better than everybody else but everything offense, defense, left, right, high, low, good decision spin. I was impressed. But there's even one more impressive than that and I think his name is Joshua, or Joshua from Amy and Bia School in the LA area. And this kid this much better than everybody. Like I've seen him beat some really good kids by point gap in 30 seconds, and not because he was more athletically better, like technically better, skillfully better, strategically better. But that's not what sold me. I watched his kid fight and my wife calls him senorcito, like little man, because she's known him for a number of years.
Speaker 2:But when I saw this kid speak and he was articulate, he was humble, he was knowledgeable, he had a great outlook I couldn't believe it. I mean the kid. I mean it's 12 to 14. I don't even know how old the kid is, but I'm like this kid is a rock star in every sense of the imagination, like that's what USA Tech 1-0 needs to be putting out. Is that kind of kid? Because that kid he has it all. He's not corny, he's not, you know, trying to do smoke and mirrors. Look at me, I'm so cool, no, no, just authentic. Yeah, he was amazing. So I don't know if you saw that kid fight CJ, but that was a bad little boy.
Speaker 1:I've seen a few of his other matches as well. Like I was talking to one of his coaches, I was letting him know Like they're just mature, just like really aware of the game. I mean like that's what's crazy at that age. I mean, like you just said, aware of the scoreboard, knows when he's up, knows when he's down, knows like how much effort he needs to put into his next shot not to give up space or maintain the lead. I'm watching this. This is pretty impressive.
Speaker 2:So kudos to those guys, man kudos well, let's hit the last day, all right let me go switch for you off olympic divisions off olympic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, last way, last day was pretty good. I mean, like I said, I know we were talking about the numbers per division. I mean there were still some uh divisions that were like a little lopsided or not not as competitive as others. I mean I was able to be involved in the 74 kg one, which I thought was going to be fireworks and I think it was all of all of that, um, very, very good day, very, I'm gonna say, like you said, a lot of talent in one one one uh one weight class there and I was, like I said, I was able to coach in there and I saw some kids grow and I thought some kids do some good things and have some good moments. And I, I um k to what's his name? Victor Victor.
Speaker 2:Rodriguez.
Speaker 1:Rodriguez. There's like one, two Rodriguez has run the world. You got Michael Rodriguez, you got Victor Rodriguez. You got the big Michael Rodriguez.
Speaker 2:We got three Rodriguez's on the team. What that's funny.
Speaker 1:It's crazy, right? Well, yeah, kudos man. He fought amazing all day. I mean, you know, I actually got to coach against him that first time, but he just fought good all day and was able just to, and it wasn't like it was lopsided. He was in some tough moments, told his composure and, you know, overall at the end of the day performed very well for that division. So kudos to him and his coach, and I'm sure they'll.
Speaker 2:For me, if I close my eyes, that was an old school team, Charles Herbie Young. Like this was like back and forth. It just wasn't round robin, it was single elimination. But all these matches are going three rounds and two competitive rounds. And a moment changes the whole thing.
Speaker 2:And this kid is a young kid. He's 18 years old. He was on the junior team. I don't know if he's 18, or maybe 17, turning 18. He was on the junior team last year.
Speaker 2:He spent a lot of time in Europe fighting some opens and he started out very strong. I think he got a little tired at the end of the day but he pulled some stuff out, especially in his semifinal. He was 15 seconds away from losing. He hits a big spin kick for four points and changes it and that was a great division. It reminded me of some old school competitive stuff and that's what I think America needs to get to across the board.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I give a big shout out to him and I like the youth that came through on that day, because I know the 54 was a junior team member, the 63 was a younger man, 74 is a young kid and 87 was our national team member. The 53, yeah, 63 was a younger man, 74 is a young kid and 87 was our national team member for a while, Michael Rodriguez, like you said. But I thought on the men's side you got a couple of young kids in there that you know. Let's see how they do. You know, when they go to Worlds in China in October, my question to you what?
Speaker 1:is Go ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 2:No, I was like no, I was gonna say what's, what is? What is the organization going to do with these, with this team? You know, I mean because you got some young ones and you got plenty of time and we're in january, you got february, march, april, may, june, july, august, september. You got damn near eight months to do something with these kids. I mean I don't, I'm again, I'm not. I don't know what the high performance I mean. I don't know. I mean, again, I'm not. I don't know what the high-performance plan is, but I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean there were some other good matches on Sunday as well, but it's hard to talk about much more after the lightweight division. I think that was kind of like the highlight of the day. Through that day, you know what I mean. A lot of other good kids showed up. I think there were some injuries in Bantamweight as well too, but that was a good division to watch as well for Guy Bantam.
Speaker 2:What about your guy? What about your pick? You told me the name before the competition.
Speaker 1:What's his name? Youngfuck Gunn, I think he got second he was in the finals though. Yeah, I told you he was in the finals. He fought well too. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Again, I don't have any thin weights or anything like that for the US and all that stuff like that. But I wanted him to win. This guy's dad is like a world-class, like a film state coach, and I think his older brother is like a world champion a couple-time world champion. What's first name? But the last name is Gun. They're from New York.
Speaker 3:TJ. What was his name again?
Speaker 1:The kid's name. I think it's Young's fucking Gun. Don't mess up my Korean. Don't be trying to get me in trouble. That's not Korean, that's Vietnamese. What is it, you racist?
Speaker 3:That's Vietnamese.
Speaker 1:The way you say. It sounds like now you're still getting me in trouble.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because it sounds like that movie where it was long dong fam okay, how do I say it? Sir, tell me how to say it. I don't know. I don't know who he is. No, no, no, I didn't say anything you long. What's his name? Young seung gun. Anyway, that was my favorite.
Speaker 1:I didn't say anything. You you long. What's his name? Young-seung Gun. Anyway, that was my favorite.
Speaker 3:Sung. All right Gun, is he Korean? I thought it was Korean to be honest with you.
Speaker 1:I thought so too. Maybe it just maybe no, but regardless regardless, regardless, his.
Speaker 2:His dad is a very he's like, I'm telling you, a world level uh poomsae coach, but he also produces fighters too. So, um, they got a pretty cool program over there. I mean, they're doing some good things and his son, his youngest younger son, got made it to the the fin weight finals and he lost to a kid from california both young boys, young kids, good, so that was kind of really good yeah a good match.
Speaker 1:We were just doing picks before and that was my pick. I lost my parlay.
Speaker 3:I just had a. I couldn't help myself. I know that's the standard. I just had to ask. I didn't know, I was listening and I was just curious. Overall, I think there's a lot of good matches. A didn't know, I didn't.
Speaker 1:I was listening and I was just curious. Yeah, so overall I think there's a lot of good matches, a lot of good matches for the team trials. Like I said, it's always an exciting tournament for me to go to and be at, just to see whoever's there shows up and fight. But I would like to see obviously we're saying before I like to see a lot more divisions still impacted.
Speaker 3:You know, I just don't know. I don't think that we've had. I think we continue to have the same conversation, but I'm not sure that we have the conversation that we need to have. So we talk about, we talk about, we talk about symptom, symptoms and not causes Symptoms and not causes. So we got, we had at one point.
Speaker 3:We're going to have to think about this a little bit because America deserves this and that's going to be the winner of the first swag we give out. So I'm going to get a t-shirt and a hoodie and a cup. I'm going to design it today with our logo and get them printed and then we'll figure out what the contest is. But for one of the listeners lucky listeners, depending who they are we'll get them. We are under no obligation to pick somebody, but we'll. Let's get a listener and get a question. You guys think about it for next time. And then I think we deal with the meat of the problem. So it might just be my problem, it might be me just thinking about it, but we need to start thinking about the cause of the problem rather than the symptom. We keep talking about what's going on, but then, at the end of the day, we're not talking about what's going on, but then, at the end of the day, we're not talking about what the problem is no, listen, and I know it's not this.
Speaker 2:Today is not the day for that, but what I will say about this is is to simply ball it up and say we need more people to come out, that's not a good, fair enough answer?
Speaker 2:no, no, no, but I'm saying that's not a good enough answer no, no, no, but I'm saying that's not a good enough answer. I think if you want the praise and you want the accolades when things go well, then you better take the shit and the bad stuff. You know that's what a real leader does, right? The real leader points with his thumbs, not his index fingers, and I think you're right. The cause why don't we have more people? Why don't we have this? Why don't we have that? Where's the shortcoming? Why don't we have our coaching staff?
Speaker 2:You know, top level, across the board, and I'm not saying again one or two good coaches. What about the other people? What about the other coaches in the program, I mean in the organization? And you know there's a couple teams out there, more on the cadet and junior level, that are doing some great things, and I don't know if they can keep going to the senior level, but you might want to try, you might want to try with them. So I don't know. I think that's a great topic. The cause and maybe we can kind of reach out to some dealers.
Speaker 3:We'll keep it for next time. But you know, you mentioning the thumb thing just reminds me of a joke you used to tell, which I'm not going to tell we can. Yeah, magic. But with that said, it's been another wonderful recap of what happened this past couple of weeks and what happened, most importantly, in the home of Top Donut. We've learned two things today. We've learned about team trials and what's going on, and we've learned about the donut wars and who we think the winner is they can't even spell Krispy In Portland.
Speaker 3:They can't even spell Krispy Kreme. So just so you know. And then, if you want to look up, there's a viral video of a Krispy Kreme hamburger. They made a crispy. I was. I've seen that before.
Speaker 2:I'm not a big donut eater man. I go to. I go to the damn gas station. Get me a damn donut man, all right.
Speaker 3:Well, once again, this has been as it always is has been. This is the warehouse 15, with coach Juan Moreno.
Speaker 1:Coach.
Speaker 3:TJ. There you go, coach TJ. Yes, sir, guy's a little slow. Let's try it again. Coach Juan Moreno yeah, and Coach TJ, let's go Still slow.
Speaker 2:There you go.
Speaker 3:And then again. Stay tuned, this is flag Don't stay tuned.
Speaker 1:This is swag.
Speaker 3:This is swag I like it, I like it. You guys look very similar, especially when you're messing with the color on your camera. All right, let's have a great night and a great day, gentlemen. See you soon Later.
Speaker 1:What do I do now? I think we go with this. That's far enough away, right, yeah All.