Masters Alliance
9th Dan BlackBelt and Olympic Gold Medalist Herb Perez visit with the best and brightest to bring clarity to the future of Martial arts.
Masters Alliance
Mat Chat: Three Masters Roast the Latest Taekwondo Gear Disaster
A seismic shift has occurred in the Olympic world with the election of the first-ever female IOC president, and the Warehouse 15 team wastes no time diving into what this might mean for martial arts on the global stage. Masters Herb Perez, Juan Moreno, and TJ Curry unpack this historic development with their signature blend of insider knowledge and unfiltered commentary.
The conversation takes a particularly heated turn when examining World Taekwondo's latest equipment innovation – protective "baby mitten" gloves that have left our hosts utterly baffled. "They're treating athletes like dogs. They're too stupid not to grab, so let's put mittens on them," Master Perez declares, highlighting the absurdity of equipment that prevents athletes from adjusting their own headgear or even safely breaking falls. This sparks a broader exploration of how decisions are made in martial arts governance and who truly understands the fighter's experience.
This leads naturally into a passionate debate about tradition versus innovation in Taekwondo. Should the martial art cling to its traditional uniform elements, or embrace performance-enhancing design like other Olympic sports? The masters don't hold back as they challenge each other's perspectives, revealing deeper questions about Taekwondo's identity crisis in the modern era.
Perhaps most compelling is their unflinching examination of leadership selection in martial arts organizations worldwide. They call out the nepotism and backdoor deals that often determine who rises to power, advocating instead for a true meritocracy based on proven track records. "Shouldn't you have to have proven that you can do the job that you're accepting?" asks Juan, cutting to the heart of a problem plaguing martial arts governance.
Join us for this thought-provoking episode that goes beyond technical discussion to address the soul of Taekwondo itself. Whether you're a competitor, coach, or passionate fan, you'll gain valuable insights from these masters who have dedicated their lives to preserving what makes this martial art special while fighting for its necessary evolution.
Welcome to the Warehouse 15. It's another day, another dollar. We don't have a guest today because we have three of the best guests here today. How are you doing, coach Moreno? I'm good, I'm good.
Speaker 2:I'm excited to be here. I got myself a little long weekend spring break here in Miami for all the kids, and so I have a couple of days off. So I'm relaxing today outside. I finished my work early, I'm about to go to the beach tomorrow and next time you see me, yo like my shirt, baby, come on, can you read? Can you read?
Speaker 3:I'm loving the shirt and I want to thank you for my peak shirt that you left here this weekend. It's in the laundry, otherwise I'd be wearing it right now. How you doing tj.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry, I'm chilling. I'm chilling, not again. Always, uh, secondary on the weather there. It looks all nice over there in Miami, but I'm in North Carolina the best place on earth, according to Master Perez himself so I'm super excited to be here. As always, let's not miss another week. Last week was on me. People Got a little busy, but we're back, so let's go.
Speaker 2:That threw me off a little bit, man. We love you TJ. We love you TJ. Oh, look at Mr Perez, look at that. That's so sweet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so what's up?
Speaker 3:Well, we missed last week and that was not due to anyone's fault in particular.
Speaker 3:You know we're busy on demand for seminars and all sorts of cool stuff and master moreno was out here, but here's the. Uh, we got a shout out to one of our favorite. First, thank you to budo brothers for sending me a jacket as always, we appreciate your love, and thank you for that kind email you sent back to me. Also, I want to thank century century martial arts, who has always been a big advocate for our sport, for us as people, and always took care of us well, took care of two us as people, and always took care of us Well, took care of two or three of us. So he took care of me and Juan and David Wall, who's president of Century, and Mike Diller Jr, who's running it as well. I want to thank you both for sending Master Coach Moreno the following products Master Coach, yeah, yeah, send me the original rip cords, the bungee cords.
Speaker 2:I bought some. I've had cords forever, but yeah, I was looking for them again and I reached out to you and you hooked me up with these guys and so, yeah, they gave me a couple of each color. So actually I already used them. Used them on Tuesday.
Speaker 3:Well, the problem is the rip cord, which was designed by me way back in the day. We made it too well. We made it last forever. The ones that I have from 20, 30 years ago, still working.
Speaker 2:I still have a couple.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they don't make them like Apple phones. My Apple phone stops working after a year, so I can get a new one. But again, thank you to our sponsors. Go ahead, I got a quick shout out too.
Speaker 2:I was, you know. I was in, I got to give credit where credit's due and sometimes I know we always don't agree on things, but I was out there in the San Francisco area One of my former athletes, james Howell. We did a little fast camp out there and the shirts were actually provided by Tusa Gunny.
Speaker 3:Kong so.
Speaker 2:I mean shout out to him. He hooked us up with some nice dry foot shirts, gave me a nice jacket.
Speaker 3:So thank gunny and tucson as well oh, honey, honey, can you get that shirt out of my laundry basket please? Yeah, we're gonna. No, no, we need that. We're gonna use that one to clean the car no, we'll save the logo.
Speaker 2:We'll save the logo also I gotta give a shout out to my boy, tj, because he's been waiting for some shirts that I just got. You know, I sweetened the pot a little bit. I'm gonna have to get hook hook them up with these right here.
Speaker 1:One of these right here, that one right there.
Speaker 2:I'll give you both, I'll give you both.
Speaker 1:Thank you, sir.
Speaker 3:We got all our people in every century for sure. They're the best. Muto just sent me some really great stuff as well. They have this blue uniform that I love to wear, and Muto's got a new thing coming out James over at Muto, james Kim just a wonderful family and always supporting the California taekwondo scene. We have our regionals coming up and I think he's going to be out there, as he always is doing the extra time. But TJ, tj, we're going to get you some government cheese or something, because yeah, I keep keeping me out on the side, that's okay.
Speaker 1:When I start making my stuff, I'll make sure I send y'all's first, because that's that's just that's what I do but well, you guys, I got some cheese.
Speaker 3:It's not government cheese, I got some trader joe's um you guys remind me I did do something cool this weekend.
Speaker 1:I actually had the. I did an actual training seminar at um master's World Class Taekwondo, which is in Greensville, south Carolina, so it's about two hours away from here, so the goal this weekend was to kind of get a lot of people in that area together and kind of start, you know, following with developing sport Taekwondo just in the surrounding area. So we had a good, decent number show for the first one. Their facilities was amazing so I had a good time?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I heard it, it was a good turnout.
Speaker 1:I mean it was a good turnout. It ran pretty well. We used the electronic system it was I can't remember the name of it, but there's one system that you can run data or kp and p on like it's like some hybrid system but, it worked pretty well for training.
Speaker 1:So, uh, I wanted to say thank you to them. It was definitely had an awesome time and definitely looking forward to the next one mean a lot of people showed interest in kind of doing it again, so hopefully next couple of months we'll be back at it again for the North Carolina, south Carolina area. So thank you guys that showed up Sounds amazing Well.
Speaker 3:I know there's a lot going on in the Taekwondo world that we have to get to, but let's start it off. I'm going to throw the topic out. I think we should talk about some groundbreaking things.
Speaker 2:First time in history for the ILC we have a new president and it's a female and I think it's. You know I don't want to say it's about time, you know, but obviously's good to. I mean, heck, we talk about this all the time. I know we rag on it and sometimes even in our own sporting, the WT. You know we've had the same leadership for a long time and forget about if it's good or bad. It gets a little stale and sometimes you just need some new blood. You know, and I think it was time.
Speaker 2:And you know a former Olympic athlete from New Zealand, I believe right. Athlete from New Zealand, I believe right, or I'll show you, and you know medalist, you know multiple medals in multiple Olympic games, and so I think it's just, it's awesome. And you know, I think there's it could be a trend as far as having getting more female leadership. You know, in the IOC and abroad, I know that there's some talking we can talk about later about a few new presidents coming up within our sporting taekwondo world. That could happen and I think it'd be good to be honest with you.
Speaker 1:I don't know much about their selection, but how long does the current president like? Do they have like a certain number of terms, or how does that work?
Speaker 3:They get two terms, and I want to say I've got to remember, but I think it's six years, so Bach was president for a while, and he you know the IOC is no different than any organization. They control and rule the roost, and the way they do that is by they hold the purse strings right, so they can make stuff happen by the way they do what they do right, so they they can make stuff happen by the way they do what they do, and, as doing what they do oh, look at that beautiful rainbow behind me, let's keep it rainbowy so, uh, it's uh.
Speaker 3:The way they do it, though, is they do it by the money purse so these guys all have the purse in front of them, they use it and, um, as such, they're able to curry favor. So, over the years, what you see in front of them, they use it and, as such, they're able to curry favor. So, over the years, what you see in most of these organizations, as always, is they have the ability to gain favor with the countries that have the most power inside the movement. And it was interesting to see Coventry make it through, because she's not from Zimbabwe, not New.
Speaker 2:Zealand. I'm sorry, yeah, zimbabwe.
Speaker 3:Well she sounds, her accent makes her sound like that, but she was preferred by Bach, the current sitting president, and she was up against Samaranch's son and Samaranch was the original gangster. Yep, and then the guy that everybody thought who I thought would get it was Sebastian Cole, who was the runner from Great Britain and a very political insider.
Speaker 3:But you know, the challenge is, the politics of the IOC are very similar to, if not as bad as, some of the others. It's really a fiefdom of royals and people with a ridiculous amount of money and they curry favor and that's how you end up being elected. So, um, whether she does great things or not, I'm not a big fan of um. I think you pick people on their ability to get stuff done.
Speaker 3:Meritocracy, not based on relationships so it'll be interesting to see what she's done. But you know, bach made tremendous mistakes while he was there, including the things he did with taekwondo, the things he did with some of the e-games and all this other nonsense and it could be frank break dancing. You know, will we ever get ray gun out of our mind? She was raw, she got moves the moves dude I were you gonna say something to you.
Speaker 2:I was gonna say you got it.
Speaker 1:You got it.
Speaker 2:I was about to ask another like question no, I, I was gonna say like, first of all, I, I you're right, I mean about this whole you know, it's who you know and, quite honestly, most of the people that you talk with they have a good amount of money as well, you know, or they get their. You know people behind them pushing them and it's it shouldn't be like that. So I agree with you, should be based on merit. Hopefully she was. It's interesting that you know Bach kind of supported her and she went through. So we'll see what that that that says.
Speaker 2:But I heard I read something I think a couple of days, I don't know when I read it, but cause I heard I read something, I think a couple of days, I don't know when I read it, but because it's been about 10 days I think. But she mentioned something about the opening up talks or inclusion, possibly with the Russians again. So I think that's interesting because that's been a hot topic, you know, because Bach kind of just kind of pushed it to the side and kind of used the word political thing and I don't know. I mean, I understand that, but I mean I didn't know.
Speaker 1:I mean I, I. I understand that, but I mean I didn't like it.
Speaker 2:I didn't like it I mean either? Well, I didn't like it for our sport because some of the best athletes were not not able to go in there and they had nothing to do with that, and so, matter of fact, some of them that were in the military, you know, same thing no-transcript.
Speaker 1:Too much like either I don't know.
Speaker 2:And then some of them were going to, they were registering under some island yeah, these russians were and the wt let that happen. And then all of a sudden, you know. So it's kind of like, if you're gonna let him, let him in, if you're not gonna let him in, don't let him in. But, um, I don't know. I think anyway, it's a hot topic, so she's gonna be, you know, thrown into the fire right away with that. I think it's good, I think that's interesting.
Speaker 3:Did you think the russians should be let in, or?
Speaker 1:for us. I did I mean for our sport and the timing of it, and when everything went down like it was just, it didn't make any sense and it's weird. It didn't make any sense, I don't want to get political about that.
Speaker 2:Ukraine and Russia should be there. I get it. We can't let people in the world just go and occupy. But I mean, depending who you talk to, I'm just talking from a sporting event. From a sporting event. What did a guy that does Taekwondo have anything to do with that? You know, and I know it's tough, I know it's a hot topic, but if you ask me, I I wouldn't let the athletes go in. I would have been more kicking people out when they were doping. Yeah, when you know, certain certain countries were getting smashed by doping and all of a sudden they were back in.
Speaker 1:No, problem wasn't that, wasn't that russia too, it was maybe that played all russia and china maybe that all tied into the decision.
Speaker 2:I don't know, like I don't know, maybe, but say it if you're gonna say it you know, but, it's funny because, herb, you talked about, like honestly, maybe I wasn't paying attention to the ioc world, but I didn't even know the new election was going on. And so it leads me to a kind of a side topic that I saw, like just recently that usa ticwano was looking for athlete advisory committee people. From the time that I saw the post and I could have been late it was like four days to nominate yourself and get elected. I was kind of like man see, that's kind of crazy things that I think should be out a lot earlier. If you really are concerned and you want to have athletes advocates, shouldn't you be posting that six months before? Five months before, not a week, not 10 days? You know, because look at me, I didn't see it. I see it and by the time I read it I thought if I'm not mistaken, it was like four days. You know it was last week. So I don't know.
Speaker 2:Sometimes I feel like these governments or these NGBs or these organizations they say, yeah, we're doing everything by the book, we have this and this committee, but it's kind of, if you know, you know, if you don't know, you don't know, and so that's how they keep control and they just build their strength. Their strength, you know, I mean I got Herb in this position, cj's in this position and this, but I don't know. I just think that if you're a corporation, if you're like a private corporation, you could do what you want. I don't. I mean I can't get in Apple, I can't get in Google, just because it's not fair. No, I got to get in there somehow by merit or, you know, through a job.
Speaker 2:But when you have these, you know these not-for-profits, I don't think they should be that locked in where you can't break through the walls. You know, and I think I mean I'm kind of sliding over here to the athlete advisory committee right now within the USAT they should have been, if they're so athlete-centered, they should have been talking about this for a long time to get quality and people that wanted to be involved. You know what I'm saying, not people that just met a deadline. That's my two cents on that.
Speaker 2:Herbert, I know you're big on that too.
Speaker 3:Well, the way you keep power and you got to remember this comes from back in the old USAT days the way you keep power is by not letting power be disseminated, right, and if you don't let power be disseminated, then you keep owning the power. So one of the ways is through controlling information, and there's no doubt that they're controlling the information. So when you control information, especially when it comes to access information, then people will and will continue to do what they always do, which is they won't pay attention, they won't care because they don't feel like they can affect change. Right, and it's just. It's not a strategy that's new. In fact, it's the original governments from as far back as rome, and during the greeks, they did not give power or voice to everyone. They give power and voice to landowners or white men or whatever else, and nobody else even knew when it was happening. So, as a a result, they couldn't care, nor should they care, because they had no reason to care.
Speaker 3:I think you know, when it comes to the, there's no doubt that the USAT doesn't care. There's no doubt that the USAT doesn't want, nor does it need, input from people, right? So it wants athletes that are either quiet or unavailable, and you get that by not telling people when the election is. The side part of that, though, is you can also get athletes that are interested or engaged but may not be your best athletes. So by limiting it, making the times exclusionary, making the time availability exclusionary, you get the group you want, and I think they're getting exactly the group, even within the group.
Speaker 1:Like I remember when I did um, the, the ac board, a long time ago and we'd be a little annoyed because you remember, coach, we'd have to go out during training and we'd be standing out in the lobby for like 45 minutes, an hour, hour and a half, some time in the training, you know, and then come back in afterwards. But like, even when I, even when I was just a part of it recently, that's not the case. If, like, they had something going on, if they was doing a training time, like we tried to moderate it, so they were like three times, but it always ended up with people were missing and things like that. Like that. That was a tough situation overall but, like you guys said, it's the same thing across the board. Or you, like I told you before you know, I mean yeah, so what?
Speaker 2:what about when you get people like from like that are that are voting and discussing things that they have no idea about? So, for example, if I'm discussing things about poomsae, I have no idea what goes on in poomsae, and vice versa. Most of the you know poomsae people don't know what's going on with sparring and also they're saying they're talking about selection procedures or performance-based results. You know, I'm saying they. It's just, it's, it's weird. You know how some of that all goes and tj, like I'm not even sure, do they even have meetings in person anymore?
Speaker 1:um, I don't know. I mean, every one I've done was always either over the phone or on video or something like that. I've never had a meeting in person, um, and I think maybe there was supposed to be one. We're supposed to meet it like after some tournament or something, but like no, not normal for the aec um, not to have like in-person meetings now. And if it was, it was definitely one, but everybody wasn't there.
Speaker 3:If that was the case, well, that means nobody's paying attention and what. What you know like there's a the USOC, if it's brought to their attention. There has been, there's always been historically a rule that has to have meaningful athlete participation. Not just athlete participation, but meaningful athlete participation. And that means that athletes have to have access to. You can't pick a time when they're not available. They have to have access to timing't pick a time when they're not available. They have to have access to timing, information, content and true input.
Speaker 3:And if you don't provide that, you know, um, and there are examples where they would do that they would hold a meeting when they knew an athlete was not just this sport, other sports athlete was on their way in an airplane to you know some international competition. Well, you've disenfranchised the athlete from the. We actually stopped one of the reasons we got, well, the original rebels right when they were trying to select the olympic coaches. Um, for 92, we walked out. I staged the walkout because they were trying to do what they usually did and we didn't want those people, Hell no we won't go.
Speaker 3:And we left the meeting, at which point the attorney pointed out to him you can't vote, you're missing the athlete's vote. So all of a sudden it comes to negotiations Following that. More interestingly, after everything was said and done and we got the coaches we wanted for World Cup, world Championship and Olympics, I was in a bathroom with john holloway and as I'm standing in there, this korean guy comes in, a young guy out of um washington, and he's kind of talking to me and we had been enjoying the night because we had won and we were relaxing. And this guy's like oh, I don't like what you did. And I'm like, I'm looking at him and I'm like he goes, I don't think whatever. And I'm like oh, okay, you don't like what I did. All right, I'm okay with that. So I don't really care. But you know, as an athlete rep, that's my job. Oh, I don't like you, you and he's like this.
Speaker 3:He's trying to intimidate me. He's trying to do what they used to do at national championships They'd take other Korean guys out into the back and beat them up. So I look at him and I go sounds like this is personal. Are you trying to make this personal? In other words, I just want to understand, because if it's personal I can handle that differently. I'll punch you in the face and then all of a oh no, I go. Oh, I didn't think so. So we'll just have to disagree. Learn to disagree, we'll disagree, we'll agree to disagree. So I tell Holloway what happened. So Holloway grabs me and he wants to find the guy right so we can handle him. But uh, this was the Koreans method of control. It always was their control back in the day. Hence why they're not running the organization anymore but are trying to run another organization called Kukiwon USA.
Speaker 2:So it'll be interesting to see what happens with that? But I digress. I got a lizard. Get away Lizard. I got a lizard.
Speaker 1:That's going to attack my lizard.
Speaker 2:I got a lizard. I got a lizard. Hey, I got a question Because I know you know what. I'm going to tee this one up to you, Mr Grandmaster Perez. Again, they have a new form of equipment for a new Olympic taekwondo. Oh Jesus, these beautiful gloves that look like um, I don't know what they look like, guys.
Speaker 1:what do they look like they look like baby lego hands, like the little baby mittens.
Speaker 3:No, no this is what they put. They put this on babies so they won't scratch their faces when they're young and it looks. Let me tell you who designed it. There was some genius in korea who went like this oh, this will look very nice, it'll work very well. They are uh grabbing too much and too muchy, so we are going to uh fix it the best way to fix it. I bet it was young jim bond, that idiot so it was young jim bond oh yes, the way we stop them from grabbing is.
Speaker 3:We take their fingers and we cover it and then they cannot grab anything. They cannot. Well, there's some other things they can't do. They can't grab, they can't fall and brace themselves. They're going to break their hand, they're literally going to break their wrist, and then they can't even their headgear. They'd be like going to the ref, excuse me, they can't.
Speaker 1:There's can't even their headgear. They'd be like going to the ref. Excuse me, there's no way that makes it to the seniors.
Speaker 3:There's no way that makes it to the seniors. Oh, and, by the way, can you help me? Yeah, I, my ass is itching and I can't itch, it can you reach down and my, my, my cup is a little ajar. Let me, let me stand up and demonstrate what needs to happen hold on and they can't adjust, even like their but their.
Speaker 1:Their mouthpiece goes flat out their mouth during the match, so they got to get water in between, like it's like so many.
Speaker 3:No, they're gonna break their wrist. You, you don't understand, like when you, when you fall, your instinct from the time we were monkeys was to put your hand, your palm, out.
Speaker 2:I don't believe in evolution?
Speaker 3:yeah, no there's no evolution. So this is, this is this is some guy in an office that never did taekwondo oh, his name is cho and another guy that barely did taekwondo and then started teaching yang jinban. And all these clowns trying to come up with a way to fix a problem. Well, that's not the way you fix the problem. Fix the referees and you don't need electronic scoring.
Speaker 2:You don't need gloves.
Speaker 1:But we're not being serious, though. That's not going to happen right. I haven't completely wrapped my mind around this actual idea that made it out the lab into production, wasted money making these and tried them on the juniors or cadets. There's no way they make the seniors wear these. There's no way.
Speaker 3:You know who made these a long time ago. These came from karate. There's a stage a long time ago they had these flat things and they were made by junri originally and you'd put your hand in them and the thumb was covered. So you couldn't get thumb injuries and the hand was covered. Well, they also figured out guys were getting injured because they couldn't do stuff that you normally use, your. I mean like, imagine you got a little itch on your face. Now you're like in a very special way, or the girls fixing their hair.
Speaker 1:How are you going to fix your hair? Now we're going to stop and let people the refs are going to have to cut their hair, and now you're going to have to you joke about that.
Speaker 2:We look like babies and we can't scratch ourselves.
Speaker 3:Now we're going to look like babies because, you're going to a referee adjust their helmets, strap their shingles, strap their forearm guards, tie their belts, pick up their mouthpieces, or the coaches have to come in the ring, yeah, but you know who's going to make them do it. I would make them do it, I would just make them do it for no reason. I'd have these jerk-off gloves on. I'd be like, excuse me, can you help me? My belt is slightly becoming untied.
Speaker 3:The belt that I actually I don't need to wear for competition because it serves no function and it messes up the chest protector. But since you want me to wear the antiquated belt, could you please tie it? And then at the same time, I feel like my pants are falling down. Could you pull those up? And then there is a little scratch on my knee. Can you get that for me? And then, wait, I can't. You want me to adjust my helmet. I'm trying, you know. I mean, it's just a level of.
Speaker 1:I wish I would have saw some of the footage. I didn't see any of the actual fight footage with the kids using them, but I didn't watch it either.
Speaker 2:I can't find it. I saw the little pictures and stuff.
Speaker 3:You want to watch something better than that, watch the 2005 footage, 2003 footage whatever it was in Vietnam of the juniors tournament where they come to demonstrate the first electronic sparring gear, which was basically boots, and guys were trying to kick and step and they were sliding and falling. It was like watching somebody, some drunk people, trying to do taekwondo on a curling mat, you know, in the Olympics. It was hilarious. I watched this and I just went and, by the way, it hasn't gotten much better. It hasn't gotten much better.
Speaker 2:Well again, I think the big point of this is once again first of all, I don't understand. I have my problems with the scheduling, I have my problem with rules, but when you have equipment and stuff like this, they think they make a solution. But think about how, just in five minutes, we had 10 problems. We can't be the only geniuses in the world that think like this. So what, what are they doing? I mean, it's the same thing for electronics, the same thing now with these gloves like stop it already.
Speaker 3:yeah, that's the weird one there comes a point in time and this is aristotle, plato it's the republic you have. You serve different roles in your life and and coach. We've talked about this a lot. When you're young, you're a student, a mentor, a senior is supposed to take care of you and teach you. Then you become a warrior. You serve the Republic, then you become a teacher and you teach those that come under you. Then you become a torchbearer, and that's when you exit the building and you give advice if asked. That's what happens.
Speaker 3:These guys still have forgotten the role they're supposed to be. You got the wt is full of guys older than me, less experienced than me and no experience in taekwondo. And then they're. They're. They're positing solutions when they have no knowledge of the problem. They didn't. They've never been in a ring where they've had to fix their headgear. They're sitting there going oh, this is horrible. These guys are grabbing. How do we stop them from grabbing? We tried to do this, we tried to do that. Oh, let's put mittens on. Let's put well, let's do, let's do better. Let's put electronic shocking collars on them so that if they grab, they get shocked. They're treating athletes like dogs. They're too stupid not to grab, so let's put mittens on them.
Speaker 1:That's silly. You said something. Let me ask you quick. You said something about the belt.
Speaker 3:You would take the belt out of competitions the belt. When I trained, the only reason I wore a belt close to training was what I get used to feeling a belt under me. Then, when I finally discovered, like the koreans, a single route rap belt it was better. Let's say three things that are true. One, the uniform serves no function. Two, the belt serves no function. Three, the chest protector itself now it's scoring a function. Serving a function for scoring serves no function. Three, the chest protector itself now it's scoring a function, serving a function for scoring serves no function. You could put people in something they were more comfortable wearing for competition and you could exit the belt because it doesn't what you're being so contradictory right now, man, because you're the one that doesn't like the new fucking uniforms.
Speaker 2:That's what I was asking.
Speaker 3:I don't here it comes back now. You've put your foot deeply in your mouth and let me pull it out for you for a little minute. I don't like the uniform now. All they did was take the current uniform and decide to retool it to make it. I don't like the uniform Now. All they did was take the current uniform and decide to retool it to make it better and the incarnations of that and in their mind. Better means how do we keep the form and function of the old one, so it looks like a taekwondo uniform, and make it better? That's not the right answer. We've talked about this for years.
Speaker 1:I'm so offended that you wouldn't wear your black belt. I'm so offended that you would compete without your black belt.
Speaker 3:I have a ninth on black belt. I don't wear it anymore. I put it on my head. I use it as a tablecloth.
Speaker 2:What would you want to wear? So here's what I'll ask.
Speaker 3:No, I'll get better for you. When you play any sport and I want you to think about the sport. The uniform, the outfit is usually, with the exception of women's sports, which were made for men. The uniform is form, specific for the sport. Take track and field. Track and field finds the thing that makes them faster and better. Swimming what makes them faster and better. Any sport that's got a component. That's performance. If you can sit here and tell me that taekwondo's uniform is performance enhancing, then you got me.
Speaker 3:No, it's a relic of the past that tries to honor something which was created by the japanese. The original taekwondo uniform and the chest protector came from Kendo. Kendo is the chest protector, the uniform came from Karate and they keep trying to keep holding on to the belt from Karate and the uniform from Karate.
Speaker 1:All right, hold on. I accept. I don't know. Okay, I'll listen, I'll listen.
Speaker 3:Do not question why grasshopper.
Speaker 2:Take the pebble from my hand. That was pretty good. Let me get the pebble. Grab the pebble.
Speaker 3:Grab it, grab it, it's still here. Another 10 years Wait. Look at this flying psychic.
Speaker 2:First of all, you should burn that cloud.
Speaker 1:Those are some of my favorite shingars. Those macho white ones, those were cool when they macho, made the best stuff and, by the way, techno.
Speaker 3:May he rest in peace. Had some great, all right I'm gonna give you a blast from hold on. Here's a blast from the past. You know what this stairway is stairway to heaven basically, this was the stairway that led up to taekwondo. Had I not walked up this stairway, I would not be here with the two of you. This was the long walk that all right, that wasn't.
Speaker 3:That was in new york, no that part that was actually in jersey. There's a great podcast of mark williams that he just did with this guy who's jose lupo, where he talks about his journey with my instructor as well, and it's really but anyway I'll give you one last thing yeah, I went to.
Speaker 1:Um, we went to new york when I was younger uh, master's first school, kind of like. They hit these long stairs that went up to the top. So it kind of looks that's what those stairs look like to me. So that's why I asked new york you know why most of us were.
Speaker 3:You know, hold on, hold on. You know why most of us were on second floors the rent was cheaper, of course before I course there's no other reason. All right Before I go to rip. Mr.
Speaker 2:Perez I got to give him. I forgot I was there in the moment, in the sacred moment of the Prince family, oh man. I felt like I intruded. I want to say congratulations.
Speaker 3:All right, here it comes.
Speaker 2:Here it comes the son committed, was offered, and committed to Cornell University and committed to Cornell University to play soccer.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh, what a great academic future for him and what a great soccer.
Speaker 2:What an amazing journey. I was on the couch and I was crying. So I just saw their family, I heard the message, I heard the coach. I can't believe it. It was amazing. So congratulations, that's awesome. I'm happy for you.
Speaker 3:Well, I've been making you all sick with my dream of my son being able to play soccer somewhere. That mattered and it's actually a good story, because this is the difference between coaching and I'm with two great coaches here. We were fortunate enough that he was a decent player and he got a lot of looks from a lot of places and we had great schools, literally amazing schools, and it's tough to be patient. We waited as best as we could and we ended up with two great schools, really good schools, and the difference between the two schools was what the coach said. When we met with the coach, and what he said and how he looked at my athlete, my son, and what he said to him and then what he expected from him and what he saw in him and his potential in the future is what resonated with me and this is why I remind us as coaches, when you look at the athlete, coach Moreno and I and all of us worked on this athlete first coach, second performance, first result, second Right, and if you can remember that, then everything works out.
Speaker 3:And this coach saw the potential of Nico, not what he needed Nico for in his program, but the potential of Nico as a future athlete.
Speaker 3:And then you know, he saw that he said if I can reach into his heart, that's what I want. He said if I can reach into his heart, that's what I want. And so, without saying too much more about it, the reason we chose that program besides it being a number one two program in the Ivy Leagues and putting kids on the pro team, and there was another program, looking at him, that came first and it was a great program and it was in a really great city and big city and a pack 10 school and the coach said big 10 and he said we'd like to. You know, we, we and they, really we went out there, saw the facilities were great, everything was great, and the difference was what the coach said. And when the coach, coach Moreno, was there, I was crying like he said what he said and Nico's there and Nico said what he said and then coach says well, how would you like to be here, you know, and Nico's just like I'm like Nico and he's just kind of crying you know so it was.
Speaker 3:I was so proud that I could share that with coach Moreno, because we have been in those moments where you make some a part of your dream happen and your first right like you when you made the Olympic team and when I made the Olympic team and TJ when you made the Olympic team.
Speaker 3:That's life memories, man, you can't. That's just a step by the way, because now you got to go do your job, right? But you know, at least you're in the room. So, yeah, thanks for mentioning. But I wanted to share that about the coach because for us that was the difference. You coach, because for us that was the difference um you know the university's hard to get to right. It's like yes, it's, you know it's a bus, a train, whatever you want to get to. But thanks for the kind words but back to the.
Speaker 2:Let me get back to you. Okay. So time out, time out.
Speaker 2:So, mr traditional over there that like let me get up you know that likes to fight and loves all the old stuff and again, I love it too. But I'm going to sit there and say that when it comes to the uniform, the uniform, the new uniform, is performance enhanced. When they went to remember TJ, when they first went to the lighter Adidas material, you know, go back to when adidas first came and prospect came. Those were better uniforms. And now you know they made those climate cool ones that were better when you fought tj. And now they got these. I don't particularly like all the form fitting but in your going on your thing, herb they are. They do make you faster, you are. They're like tights. You kick faster in tights than you do in pajamas. Oh my gosh, p Diddy, that's the uniform I want to see.
Speaker 2:I want to see this uniform Come on, but that's irrealistic, that's not going to happen.
Speaker 3:Who is this handsome?
Speaker 2:boy, who is that? What Do you want to see? Some 6'3", 58-kilo guys that look like twins?
Speaker 3:No, I want uniforms. What I would say is this Let the uniform be the twigs.
Speaker 1:You remember that one? I forget what. It was one of the big events World Championships or Grand Prix where they modeled the white short t-shirt, the shorts, the tights that went with it. It was supposed to be like the new sports uniform and then people went crazy and then we ended up with the. Then we to like the uniforms, but stretchy ones. I wouldn't have minded the shorts and the t-shirt thing. Like for me it's I'm on when it comes to that. It wouldn't have drove me crazy. If you want to put a belt on, put a belt on, but like that would be.
Speaker 2:That's how we train that's how we work out, you know I just I well it is, but I guess I'm going on the. I'm going on the modern or the traditional side. Now, for all the people that fight that were wearing red uniforms and we got monkey punch and monkey kicks. Now you want to wear that gold silly-looking pajama suit back there? Nah.
Speaker 3:That's performance enhancing.
Speaker 2:I'm going to tell you real fast. In 2016, we were at the Olympic coaches' training camp that we had to do before the Olympics and they asked me to speak in front of Dr Cho. This is when they first started Dr who, whatever, dr Cho, cho, cho Cho. Then, when they talked about the uniform colors and I was like, and there was all these rule change stuff, and I just I looked, and I remember looking at the technical director at the time and I'm like you know what I'm going to do. You know I'm not going to hold my tongue and I just said kind of in a summary, I said Taekwondo has to have an identity.
Speaker 2:Boxers, box wrestlers, wrestles, judo players play judo and if you ask a judo player, wrestler or boxer from 50 years ago, they know exactly what's happening right now. But in Taekwondo we don't have an identity. One minute we have five kicks and we have four kicks. Then we have come johns, then we don't have come johns, you can't fall. You can't fall. And now you think that putting a uniform, changing blue, red or green uniform, pants is going to make a difference. What's our identity? What's is our identity? Fish kicks and monkey kicks and and sloppy punches? Maybe it is, but we we have to have some kind of consistency. So I will go to a traditional, pure standpoint right now and say Taekwondo had this, and then they had the V-neck, and now we have the heavy cotton, and then we had Taekwondo. Oh my gosh, what is that?
Speaker 3:We'll take it to our women. This is Borax Thong. This is the uniform. I thought that was you, that's you, that's you. I don't have that much hair on my chest.
Speaker 2:You shaved it off. Man, I've seen you have hair like that, that's you?
Speaker 1:That's crazy. I get it. I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. I don't have a problem with that.
Speaker 1:Calm down, boys, calm down I remember the progression you were talking about, like where it went from, like the heavier to the lighter. Then they had the ones that had the net on the back, so you know, dried faster, blah, blah, blah. All those things, it all happened. I like the net. I like the net too, and it felt I like that it was still a great question. I don't know. I think I would always wear the belt. I don't care. My point was the belt. I don't care what you do, I don't think you can lose the belt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you have to. I think you have to have the belt because it's just judo, jiu-jitsu, I don't know. I think you have to have that. People like you and me, we, we argue that the it's a sport, but if we take it too much sport then then we're not balling, we're not, we're calling hey, what's up herb, what's up tj? We we've we've had podcasts where we've kind of said that's not correct, let's keep some tradition, let's keep some honor, let's keep some respect. So I think, with the uniform, I think you have to keep the belt, tj. I thought like I'm going to go to versions of the climate cool with a little. I thought that was fine. I I'm not a huge fan of these tight things, but why did they got a little bit better go?
Speaker 1:to the tights because they wanted to. Um, it was so you could see when people were holding, or they wanted the pants to be light, like what was the original complaint? Why what was? Yeah, yeah it was.
Speaker 3:It started out as a big penis thing. They wanted they went to the tights because there were all these rumors and they wanted to make the rumors true or not. So they basically said, put the tights on and we'll see what's underneath. That's it. You know we're always saying we have the biggest cojones. They wanted to know whether it was true or not.
Speaker 2:But I remember the girls went crazy. The girls went crazy because they're saying like, come on, this, this is gonna look horrible on some of us, whether we're too skinny or too heavy. The guys are like, come on, I mean it, it didn't look right, man. So that thing about like, like the muto one, the uh, the tusa one, I think that this is about the tightest fitting one, but I I think you can have this dry fitting material or whatever, whatever it is, and kind of form fitting. I think it's fine.
Speaker 1:That never bothered me. Like just pack two uniform pants, get your pants, whatever first was and have your second pair in there for the semis and final. Let's go, you know.
Speaker 2:Oh, mr Tradition over here. Look at Mr Tradition wearing the the. I don't even want to say a bad Before we go any further.
Speaker 3:I have to tell everybody the news. I don't think he's released it yet, but we now are joined. We have another ninth Don amongst the Americans. I think he's number eight in the world. He lives in Korea Steve Kaepner. Dr Steve Kaepner, double doctorate, double doctor, steve Kaepner, who's recently retired from university, has received his ninth don, so he's now a kooky. One. Ninth on, he joins the realms of all of us who have done it.
Speaker 2:I look forward to to you, two young men doing it as well never doing that where you can wrap your belt around and, uh, you can do your dance my choreo is still around and you can do your dance, my choreo is still like this Straight like that. But the so let me ask you, let me let me.
Speaker 3:Let me ask you a question where this all comes from Everybody walking says it sucks. No, no, let me give you, let me give you, let me give you a question, right, and the question becomes oh, look at this handsome devil.
Speaker 2:So, so let me give you.
Speaker 3:Let me, let me give you. Let me, let me ask your question. I'll go back to the picture you like. So, in any anything that requires performance, you're going to battle. You're you're a, uh, warrior going to battle. What do you put on? No, no, tj, you were, you were a warrior, you were, you were in the army. What do you put on if you go into battle? You put on a traditional uniform from the Civil War.
Speaker 1:No, but that's not the same. That's not the same. I don't think that's the same.
Speaker 3:No, it's the same.
Speaker 1:It's the same. Well, yes, but no. But I understand what you're trying to say, what I don't think. So we're talking about Te compared to, like, army, army fatigues, and you know I mean, and those changed over time too, those guys, those got heavier, heavier and lighter as well.
Speaker 3:Look at, look at Nico. This is Juan Moreno's team into Miami Watch.
Speaker 2:Juan taking the school all the into Miami guys Go one.
Speaker 3:we did, actually we beat them, tell me they won no, no, we beat them in. We beat them in last year at the uh next fest this year? Yeah because we got to play them again in a few weeks go ahead.
Speaker 1:I was just saying I mean, and those changes, they've gotten lighter, they've gotten you know, they change colors depending on the climate that if there's a war being fought and those change consistent across. I'm just saying. I'm just saying as far as the belt, how is it?
Speaker 3:different. What do you mean? How's it different? Do you guys wear it? What do you wear from a? What do you wear in an army tactical uniform? That's tradition and doesn't serve purpose. Form of a function.
Speaker 1:I mean, I get your point, but like I get your point.
Speaker 2:So what they're wearing right now is perfectly functional it's functional it, may I?
Speaker 3:I okay, I gotta, here's, the here's, the here's the first warehouse prize. Any athlete, nobody wants our prizes to the podcast, or coach can tell us and that listens to this what their thoughts are on this. Do they think that they should be? Should they? Oh my god, look at nico, looking over my shoulder, smiling with a smug look. Should they be looking? Should ask them? Ask the athletes if you had a choice of what you could wear during fighting, what would you wear? What would you feel like?
Speaker 2:I think about that. It's like what I would wear is different what you would wear. You said you would like to wear tights. I don't wear tights. I'm too skinny. Okay, I like wearing basketball shorts because I feel like I can move. I don't like to wear so, but you can't just have anything. You have no kind of uniform.
Speaker 3:It goes back to me. All I'm saying is go back to figure out what's performance enhancing? I'm not saying and like was the wrong word I it would be. What do you think would be performance enhancing? That's a better word, I agree what do you think?
Speaker 1:I mean, you never asked what do you think like what? What would you? What would the uniform other than the belt? Let's say, the belt's a option, but what would the uniform be like? I?
Speaker 3:don't like this is. This is dr capner and I sparring back in one of my camps with juan more's in this picture too. I don't want to bring up this memory, cause he broke his hand in this one, but uh, you did. This is an old, old school the um. Look what I'm wearing, though. So let's look at what I'm wearing. I'm wearing a t-shirt. I'm wearing safety equipment. I've got my pants up over my uh uh calves, because my calves are muscle and I don't like anything pulling on my knees so we did that, because y'all did that, we thought it was cool.
Speaker 1:It wasn't. I didn't really think, like we lift our pants up because everybody before us lifted their pants up and it wasn't above your calf, this would be performing this is.
Speaker 3:This is performance enhancing for me and I think, um, I think you look at that and this is performance enhancing, I've got I've got shin and arm guards on and, by the way, this would look good if you came out with shin and arm guards that looked and felt good and functioned, and those would be fine. The headgear is on. I'm not saying a t-shirt, but I'm saying that the this idea that the shirt has any function. And you will notice I'm not wearing a chest protector because, given an option, I wouldn't wear a chest protector. Who is that handsome guy? You see that face, coach. Look how good you still look the same. But hold on a second, let me see what you're wearing.
Speaker 2:I'm wearing sweats and a t-shirt. Yeah, because you're skinny. But we all dress like that and people still do dress like that. They still do. It's comfortable. So what I'm just saying is the current uniform. Again, I don't particularly like the tight, tight ones, but I think the form-fitting ones, the material, it slides up your knee, it's very light, it's very comfortable. I mean I like putting my shin guards on the outside so I can fix them easier, blah, blah, blah. I don't think it's that bad. I don't think they got that all wrong.
Speaker 3:To be honest with you, I don't think it's that bad. I think that's probably a good. I mean, that's a good way to say it. But what I will say is Getting back to the gloves.
Speaker 2:I think no. Again. This whole thing started was the gloves create our. If that's what they're going to use, they're going to create more problems, just like the electronic chest protectors did, just like the uniforms. I mean we just keep spiraling down, but these gloves I mean. I love KP&P. I really think KP&P is the best product out right now. But that's a bad, that's a swing and a miss right there, man, I don't think it'll make it to the seniors, though I don't even know.
Speaker 1:Like I said, I wish I saw the footage and I'm hoping it wasn't just a demo match that everyone's talking about, but they posted it like they were proud of these gloves. It was like a WT post or something like that.
Speaker 2:What about the new form? Have you seen the new KP&P? It's kind of got like muscles on it. It's kind of got like I like that.
Speaker 1:I like that. I like that one, because your arms go, it doesn't go over your head, and I think it's more.
Speaker 3:Well, if K, if KP&P is listening, my, my club just purchased the other version, whatever it's called, dato, because that's what everybody's using their product. I'm more than ready to try two of their chest protectors. Send me two chest protectors, I'll give them a shot. Send me muscles because I need muscles, so I'm good to go with muscles, but send me some muscles for my chest and uh, which I've always struggled with I like the back.
Speaker 1:I like the back because it doesn't.
Speaker 3:This is a picture this is a picture of dr cape. They're pushing the boulder during his ninth I can't see anything.
Speaker 1:You can't see it I'm not ninth contest.
Speaker 2:I can't see anything. You can't see it. Yeah, I'm off to the side. I'm off to the side. You can't see it, yeah.
Speaker 3:He's over here on the. He's over here.
Speaker 2:I'm squishing your head. I'm squishing your head.
Speaker 3:So he can. Yeah, I'm so happy for him. I don't disagree. I mean, there's a place for tradition in everything we do. But I think there's a time for evolution and I obviously think there's a time for revolution. So if the world wants to fix taekwondo, it needs to evolve from its original ideas on what scoring was should be and what the martial arts should be, and it should have reverse engineered back to that. It's time for a revolution because it's clear that the current leadership is incapable, unwilling or not bright enough to do it, and either of those three are not acceptable. So we need an evolution and we need a revolution. So what we don't need is capitulation and cooperation, because that obviously hasn't worked.
Speaker 3:That's a lot of words, dude. I'm not even done because. Let me get to the Kukiwon USA. Talk about capitulation taking a U-turn on a dead end. You know Kukiwon USA? I mean that cracks me up. You know seventh and sixth degree kids of grand masters running organizations? I mean these are guys. I wouldn't let them carry my bag when I was training. These are guys I never even saw in a gym when we were doing taekwondo. And now they want to certify the instructors in this country because their dads did taekwondo. And, by the way, their dads didn't do taekwondo, except for one that I can think of, and he's not a ninth degree.
Speaker 2:Let me ask you something about this, and maybe, tj, you chime in, chime in too, because I know we kind of bag on that. But what about, like, even in, like again, organizations and stuff like that, whether it's usat, au, you know, wt, patu, like there's some sense that you you talked about those, those levels of people that they, you know, you you start out as a student, they become a warrior, blah, blah, blah. But like, how do you guys feel about, like people that just rise up so fast, you know, just because their father is somebody or because they've been in the right place, and all of a sudden they're running organizations Like, isn't that? Like a? It's just, it's strange to me, and I'm not, honestly, I'm not one of these old guys like.
Speaker 2:It's strange to me and honestly, I'm not one of these old guys like, oh, I've been here for 30 years, it should be my turn. I don't agree with that either. If somebody has it, whether they're young or old, they should be able to lead like any sports team or any corporation. I just feel like there's a lot of people recently I mean, we talked about this with our USA Tech one a guy who goes from media to CEO. It just seems a little bit strange, and that's just me being directly honest. I have no problem saying that to anybody that wants to listen to me. But talking about Cookie Juan, talking about Patu, talking about WG, talking about AAU, it's a weird time that people are just going from nothing to something I don't know.
Speaker 3:Go ahead TJ.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's the backdoor deals, it's the you know the things. I do this, you do this, we do this, we all do this together, and then it's all the same shit on repeat, over and over and over again. It's crazy to me, Cause I mean that goes back to what's the word you like to use the nepotism, the nepotistic nepotism like or you know, and I agree with you when you said that coach randall ball, like you know it's.
Speaker 1:I've been here for a long time, so it should be my turn. But when you're, when you're on the trail and you're paving the way and you're doing things and changing things and organizing things and literally doing things above people's pay grades, that they don't even understand how you got there from where they're standing, that's when I start to have an issue. That's when I have like I get a little crazy because it's like now we're literally just choosing whoever we want.
Speaker 2:At that point, like always and like normal, I heard, I heard a podcast and this guy said something like someone that was pretty successful, somebody that he listens to, said you're going to be in trouble pretty soon. And he's like what are you talking about? He's like and this guy's like kind of uh, uh, kind of philosophical, you of philosophy kind of guy. And he said, because you live in an old garden, he's like you have your friends around you, you guys are having fun, you are successful, you've achieved things, you help people and you want to be loved, you like to enjoy life. But people see that and they get afraid because they can't get in. So what do they do? They throw rocks. What do they do? They make backdoor deals. What do they do? They try to do anything to circumvent you, even though what you're doing is right, so that they can kind of have this power undeservingly.
Speaker 2:And I thought about that. I'm like that's kind of a microcosm of what happens in our sport, like in Taekwondo. You have these people that do these things and get to these positions. I mean I don't want to beat it to the horse, because we talked about that with coaching positions and coaching. What do you call it? The nepotism of just trying to help my friend. I mean it's sad, I don't know. Some of that stuff, you know, makes me a little bit frustrated and yeah, I don't know A little bit crazy, a little bit crazy.
Speaker 3:So we go back. We've had this conversation in different ways.
Speaker 2:Sorry, break it back up.
Speaker 3:For different reasons, and so you've got to ask yourself and it really is simple, what it is is should you be and this is a problem in everything from politics to everything else Should the best people be running organizations meaning a meritocracy, prove you're the best, and if you are the best, then you should. Or should the one who's willing to stay in the room and do the backdoor deals be the one running the organization? And too often the people that are bright, they just say I'm done, I, I can't get anything done here. Um, and I can think of a current change in one of these organizations recently, where the a guy who was good for the organization was running it well, did all this. He left the room because he said I don't need this, I got better things to do with my life, and so you know, you end up with that I. I, I'm a meritocracy guy. Let the best person lead.
Speaker 1:I don't care where they're from, I don't care who they are, I don't care what their nationality is, I don't care what their accent is but shouldn't you have to have been proven that you can do the job that you're accepting, or do the thing like you know?
Speaker 3:that's the best, that's the best person. You're saying the same thing. I'm saying I'm saying the best person. And how do you get the best person? They come with a track record. You don't just say that that's the point.
Speaker 1:That's the bottom line. That's what I'm saying. Like it, this doesn't make any sense If they've never a lot of times they've never done it before. Physicians and learning how to do things while other people actually know how to do them already or have done them already or been successful in doing them already. It makes no sense to me or or some kind of track.
Speaker 2:I heard that's a great right there track record. And tj, we talked about this before kind of privately. I was talking to one of my athletes. If someone I said I said there's a lot of coaches and I was I was giving him examples. In his little, his small lifespan, I'm like have people have been popular and everyone was talking about them. I'm like where are they at right now? Because their track record was a short time.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of people that can make an Olympic champion or a world champion or national team members in a short time. But like that doesn't necessarily mean that you haven't figured it out. It means you're good right now. Maybe it means you have a good freaking athlete right now. Maybe you have somebody special, but some of a director has been able to do this over years and successful over a number of years. That's the track record and that's who you go to bat with. So it's meritocracy with the track record, because if it's just meritocracy, someone that has a little success goes. I did it, yeah, you did it once with so-and-so. We can compare results all day long. Because I mean TJ, how many times do we go to Opens and people get on the stand and they had a vibe, they had a fight.
Speaker 1:That's now. That's definitely hardcore now, you know, and then we put up a picture, know, and then we put up a picture and then we put up a picture of third place. Look at this. The picture under is crazy, but yep, that's kind of funny underneath this is just so we can be clear.
Speaker 3:This was the usa team coach at a world event and this was his thank you to the public and the international players. And then, underneath, um he was.
Speaker 3:He's characterized himself as san diego yeah, anyway, good, good on you, good on you bangers and mash. But, um, let me get him off my screen because it makes me sick. But, um, meritocracy, coaches, is exactly that. What I'm saying is you need a meritocracy in the sense that you define what that means. So in coaching, right in coaching, you say no, it's not enough. Because, yeah, we all know, like I watch all these posts from guys oh, I developed an Olympian. No, you had an Olympian. No, you had an Olympian. An Olympian came in your school and trained with you in raw form and somehow made it through the process to go to the Olympics. Do you have 12? Do you have two? Do you have one? And they're called one-offs.
Speaker 3:We had a rule on the US team and it was the first time you win, it's an accident. Second time you win, it's an accident. Second time you win, it's a legacy, maybe a destiny. Third time you win, that's a legacy. That's when you're you matter. You've proven you can do it three times. Once is an accident, twice you're a team member three times. Now you matter. And the people that have been on the us team, you know what I'm talking about, because a guy came in the first year. A girl came in the first year is like, yeah, you got here and I know how some of them made it there. They got lucky. They're on the right side of the draw. Somebody else got hurt, whatever, especially back when we were fighting. Now you get there two or three different ways. We're fortunate, all of us.
Speaker 3:I've been through no less than four or five team trial procedures. I fought in no less than eight different types of qualifications at a world championship One day, two days, three days match, this match that I fought at nationals, when you fought at eight in the morning till 12 o'clock, and then you fought again at 12 o'clock at night and have to fight the next day. You got to wait that long and there were a hundred guys in a division and it was, you know, two-day event. Right, I fought in seven-day events. Now, once you do that and you've proven yourself and this is where you got to give stephen lopez some credit he fought just like most of us. He fought an even more qualification process with electronics, without electronics, you know. So I you know he's got a lot. It's crazy how important not getting injured was back then too. Process with electronics, without electronics.
Speaker 1:He's got a lot of other problems. It's crazy how important not getting injured was. Back then too, that was a part of the game.
Speaker 2:You had to be durable.
Speaker 1:That's the word. You had to be durable, to fight as many matches that day and to fight at that physical level all day, and the competition level it's a whole different beast.
Speaker 3:Now you want to see a chest protector.
Speaker 1:This is how you wear a chest protector. Why is it so little?
Speaker 3:Notice where the belt is. I got my belt on. Why is it so little?
Speaker 2:though, actually check this out. Doug Baker came to one of my seminars in Chicago and he did it. He did the seminar. Good for him. I was like he did the whole seminar. He's like let me run, let me kick. He's like he did the whole seminar. He's like, oh, let me run, let me kick. He's like I got to learn how to do this shit. I got to learn how to figure this out so I can coach it. I'm like dude.
Speaker 2:I give him a lot of credit. He was awesome, awesome, awesome, awesome. Shout out to my man, doug Baker.
Speaker 3:But he says some dumb stuff on the internet. Him as a fighter, but I defriended him because he says he's offended so many people that I know on the internet about his thoughts.
Speaker 2:I don't unfriend anybody, but there's a couple.
Speaker 3:Oh, I unfriended him.
Speaker 2:I know we have some different people on different political sides and stuff like that. But, man, I tell you what. There's some people out there that say some crazy things. I'm going to send both you guys things privately. We can talk about next week a guy that wrote something or said something 30 years ago before social media. I want you to hear him talking about left and right and different things. Oh my gosh, it's unbelievable. It's so good. I'm gonna send it to you guys after this you'll love it.
Speaker 3:This guy this was the copa of the america that I then I went down to. You know we're messing all these was playing. This guy had a pair of Taekwondo pants on. I don't think you can read it?
Speaker 1:Oh, you can't see them. Oh yeah, it says that's the F word. Fucking awesome. What's the other? I can't see, yeah.
Speaker 3:The pants had a patch on it and that's what they read on them. He was standing right in front of me game that was the culprit of america, yeah, where I almost got killed by every yeah, every colombian they were. Look, oh my god, it was ridiculous that's why they broke into the stadium and stuff yeah, I took my life in my hands going to that event, but what a great event for my son to view right.
Speaker 3:So maybe one day he'll get he'll get to do better than the um the current American team is doing. We'll see. I mean, I think we've opened up some can of worms and we still have yet. I know you guys are reluctant to do it, but I think we have to come up with some solutions, like on the uniform. Believe it or not, I'm actually working on a version of a uniform now. Um, and it's not necessarily um, it's not for competition, it's just like to take. I'm making the same mistake. I'm taking the current idea of a uniform and trying to make it better, and I don't think that's the right way to do it, but I'm at least trying. Right, um, calm down, people come now. Now, don't, don't look, don't look.
Speaker 2:I'm going to cover my DJ, I was going to say something about the gloves again real fast. So that glove is horrible. I don't think you need gloves.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:No, you don't need gloves.
Speaker 3:No, we don't need gloves. No, you don't need gloves. First of all, you don't need gloves because none of these guys can punch.
Speaker 2:They punch like girls in a schoolyard.
Speaker 1:Hey, when I came back, but that's the referee's fault too.
Speaker 3:I watch these guys. There's a coach out of California his dad used to be a competitor and I watch him put up these ridiculous videos where the guys are and he's teaching them to punch like this. And I'm like I wish he would punch me like that, please punch me like that. And I'm like watching this guy. This is what he's putting up on the internet. I don't want to mention his name, he's out of california and I'm not going to mention it begins with a v and he's like ah, and I'm like you're teaching this. This is what you're teaching like. Have some respect for the art your dad did at a high level and have some respect for the country you come from. And teach them how to punch right then teach them how to score, you know, whatever you think. An idea of a punch, because right now referees are scoring the idea of the punch right, so you got to show them.
Speaker 3:Here it is. It's coming from way back here, just like in a movie.
Speaker 2:Watch it, here it comes, and then I'm going to do it like this, so it'll make a sound instead of this well, funny thing, ironic thing young is like people key up only when they punch now, because that's the one thing that the ref can do, and I would keep on the kick.
Speaker 3:But here's the thing I've been punched by people that can punch, like naeem hassan, he could punch like. He punched me in my chest. I wanted to cry and die, right, this guy was an amazing puncher, right. So like you, you know, like these guys can't I I'd stand in a line, I'd line them all up and let them punch me and I just let I, just without a chest protector. Uh, you know, I'd let them back kick me. To be honest, without a chest protector, these guys can't back. I don't know. I watch these drills.
Speaker 1:If you're holding one of those little shields.
Speaker 3:You're holding one of those little shields. You're holding one of those little sissy shields and you're back kicking. Take a walk.
Speaker 1:That's because they've made it all about foot placement and all this stuff. I don't know For me. I'm just letting you know why it sucks.
Speaker 3:Hook, kick to the body. You guys come here. Next time you come, try to hook, kick me in the body. I'm gonna score please put up two points.
Speaker 2:Oh, no, no, oh, you're gonna score, I'm gonna break your ass I'm gonna kick you.
Speaker 3:As soon as you, as soon as you try to hook, kick me to the body, I'm gonna break your ass, I'm. You might have two points on the board, but I'm gonna have two points on your ass, just so you know um I got, I got something for your hook. There we go. This is what you're gonna look like after it right there.
Speaker 1:For me, I would take punches away altogether. I hate how they are a part of the game Like very seldom. I'm like man. That guy deserved that punch point, Not about it being good or bad, Just like it. Just. I don't know the inconsistency, You'll see the big punch score. That was the original career. You got to talk to Dr Cape, the ninth degree. Dr Cape, Everybody talks about the coaches. It's just some score, some don't, some do some yes.
Speaker 3:The Koreans purposely took punching out because they didn't want it to look like karate. So the original idea was you take punching out. Back in the day, and then on top of it they put on a kendo armor, which was bamboo, because we were so deadly that you know you couldn't survive a kick. But then you watch the uh, the uh, ufc and obviously that's not true I do wait I yeah, hey, but you know, what?
Speaker 2:uh uh, it's funny because you watch para. Take one, because I actually worked with para um and you think about that that you can punch that don't score a point and it's just fine. It's just fine you watch para those, but what's the?
Speaker 1:logic in that? Because of the like. What's the logic in that?
Speaker 2:like you can punch, but it doesn't score because some people have arms and some people don't I mean, some people have longer like again don't get me started with para.
Speaker 1:It's like a little for me. It's like I've watched events where you see like someone with no arms you know what I mean and you see like someone with like full arms but like I don't know. I know there's like what do they call them? Classifications and all that stuff like that.
Speaker 3:I am not. I am not biting on this.
Speaker 2:But if someone can't punch, then both people shouldn't be able to punch yeah, so like that's why they're taking out, that's why they're taking it away from a point I hate punching all together I eat my orange I hate, I hate the punching all together I like punching, but they don't score it right
Speaker 2:yeah, but I like kicking and they don't score it right. I like spinning, but they don't score right. So go back to where we were in 1995, you know. I mean, I like kicking and punching, but if referees knew how to score real points they could. We wouldn't be here, but.
Speaker 3:I'm going to give you, I'm going to give you something which I recognized a long time ago Nineteen two thousand twenty five is as far away from 1985 as 1985 is from 1945. So just to put in perspective, so when I talk about 85, 86, 87, even 92, you know, imagine, imagine like somebody talking to you, about with you, back in the day, and you're like in 1945, you know I mean. So, like you know, we gotta, I got, I gotta go with the flow and let 40 years be 40 years ago. But I go back to the one thing that I'll say to both of you has the technical regimen, has the technical arsenal, has the paradigm elevated or digressed? That's it, and that's why we're in a kerfuffle again. There we go.
Speaker 2:We're definitely in a kerfuffle, yeah. But I mean, again, that's debatable. Young, me and you both agree on a certain fighting and the explosion and the toughness and the meanness and the timing and the subtleties of the sport. But these kids can kick, they can run, they can fast kick, they can double, they can spin, they can back hook. They can not a bun. They can fast kick, they can double, they can spin, they can back hook, kick. They can not a bun. They can do stuff. Young, I'm talking the good level, you're right. I'm sure there's a bad level, but I'm going to go against my own grain right now, because I was in your era and stuff like that. There was a bunch of bad people too, yeah for sure.
Speaker 3:There were always bad people.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah yeah, there was a bad people.
Speaker 3:There was one person who was terrible at taekwondo and she won 10 world championships or something.
Speaker 2:She won a gold medal.
Speaker 3:She couldn't kick. She literally couldn't kick. She was 900 feet tall and couldn't kick.
Speaker 2:I know a person that won a Olympic gold medal and didn't score a point. What?
Speaker 3:I'm very familiar with her. I may she, may she. Yeah, yeah, that's crazy.
Speaker 1:Anyway, it's true.
Speaker 3:Well, it's been an hour and some odd time. We don't want to kill everybody with this amazing wisdom that we partake in and share with the world. Any closing thoughts? I just want to know who didn't score a point. If you know you know, share with the world Any closing thoughts. I just want to know who didn't score a point. I'm sorry If you know who you know won the entire Olympics without scoring a point and also was one of these mind people.
Speaker 2:Positive affirmation it gets better. Young, do you remember the Olympic trials? Got KO'd.
Speaker 3:Got KO'd and that's on video Got KO'd and got lucky because the ref didn't know what happened. The ref went like this but that almost happened to me. I won't mention the person I did it to, but there was a person that I knocked out in team trials and the ref and everybody was standing there like this You'll see me in the videotape going count. You'll see me in the videotape going count like start counting Cause I was afraid he was going to get back up. I was like you better count. He was, he got. He got a 20 count and didn't get up. You know. So the refs were bad. Back then, you know, like I was like cause literally you can see me Cause like I had no interest in him getting back up because I knew the politics involved and he didn't get back up. But I was like look at in him getting back up because I knew the politics involved and he didn't get back up.
Speaker 2:But I was like looking at ref, because refs like this I don't. That didn't go to where he was supposed to go.
Speaker 3:But yes, it's true, the one you're talking about. She got KO'd out. Well, it happened at world championships. In 87 Korea got knocked out by Sweden and the Swedish coach was so overwhelmed he ran into the ring and grabbed his player and was carrying him around, so the ref spent 30 seconds getting him out of the ring, at which point the Korean kind of the featherweight kind of musters some energy up to get up and gets through the match somehow. But it was true and I was, like you know, rule to the coach, have a seat which Mark Williams was coaching me when I knocked this guy out in team trials at collegiates and Mark just stood up.
Speaker 1:When we talk about more knockouts, real quick, when we talk about more knockouts like the people that were getting knocked out back then was the level comparable. Because I feel like now, when we get big face shots, the level is usually like so far offset you. We get big face shots, the level is usually like so far offset, you know what I mean. You don't have any big Like good player versus good player you don't get face shots.
Speaker 3:You don't get any face shots here. People get. They get kicked in the face and they look at each other. If I watch a tape of a hook, kick a back hook, kick and.
Speaker 3:I'm talking about no, no, hold on. I'm talking about your best player on your team right now. He back, hook, kicked somebody in the face and had a little celebration for himself. He should go slap himself in the face. He hook, kicked the guy in the face and nothing happened. If we hook kick somebody in the face, they were down on the floor unconscious, carried out on a stretcher, nine times out of 10. Nobody gets hit. Now their feelings get hurt. Somebody gets a nose, a nose pass by and he's like oh, what was that? Oh, it was a foot in my face. No, watch the. I watched the highlights. That's the only thing I can watch and I'm like. They're like oh what, what was?
Speaker 1:that you don't see any good shots. You don't see any good shots or any like spectacular tecmo or like timing stuff. None of that from anybody the.
Speaker 3:The last thing I saw and it was a good guy against against a beach ball was the mexican guy getting knocked out by the nadabon.
Speaker 1:That was yeah, that he was fighting a beach ball he was fighting a beach. That was my question. Where, like that was? When people get knocked out like you're talking about your era, your time, was it like, comparable, like they both were not every time, not every time. What was like that?
Speaker 3:not every not well, like the, there was a friend of mine I don't want to mention this because I mentioned in a seminar and he was in the room and I didn't realize there was a amazing knockout of a two really good guys fighting each other in the asian games and that was like good night, sweetheart, and they were good. Yeah, you know, yeah, but you got to think about it. Tj, you didn't, did you get knocked out?
Speaker 1:nah, I got hit pretty heavy. Don't tell you why you hesitate.
Speaker 3:It's either that's a yes or no question because I mean I've gotten hit hard. All right one. Did you get knocked out?
Speaker 1:yes, so I think it counted out. Remember the the the world qualification when I got back kicked low and they counted me out dude.
Speaker 3:That's why.
Speaker 1:That's why the uh, that's why, that's why. That's why that's why we got gold silver, bronze.
Speaker 3:Okay, that explains it, coach. You ever get knocked out.
Speaker 2:I've never been knocked out. You got knocked out when I was a yellow belt, nine years old.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's okay. Good players against good players, don't get knocked out Good players, knock out less good players.
Speaker 2:That's not true, though. You knocked out somebody very good from Canada. What's his name? The black guy. I knocked out a lot. Yeah, he's a great player. He's a good player you got him.
Speaker 3:But I'm saying it's actually harder to knock out a bad player because a bad player is just trying to survive, right, good players, they will take a chance. And if that chance doesn't pay off which was the case with the canadian who I still have a lot of respect for we fought five times. Um, you know, it happens so. But yeah, I mean I, I, it's not always the good guy knocking out. Listen, I saw a good player get knocked out at the olympic sports festival by a terrible player, like the guy just was dying, losing, and he did this weird jumping, crescent back hook kick and knocked out a friend of mine and I was looking at him like dude, what are you doing? Right, like he got killed for the rest of the tournament, but he at least got through that, all right. Well, enough of the knockout stuff.
Speaker 3:My bowl of fruit is empty, my cup of espresso is done, and may we all continue to push the rock up the hill on Warehouse 15. And remember our admonition and our advice to you. If something we said potentially offended you, sorry, not sorry. And none of the accents portrayed in this podcast by yours truly were meant to mean derogatory, but they are kind of true and accurate, so don't be upset about it. It is what it is, baby. Truth is truth all right.
Speaker 2:Later, peace later.