Masters Alliance
9th Dan BlackBelt and Olympic Gold Medalist Herb Perez visit with the best and brightest to bring clarity to the future of Martial arts.
Masters Alliance
Game Changers: The Athletes Who Redefined Taekwondo
The Warehouse 15 crew delivers a no-holds-barred assessment of the recent Pan Am Championships in Queretaro, Mexico, where competitors battled not just opponents but also 90-degree heat in outdoor tents. The tournament's chaotic organization—from confusing registration processes to midnight schedule changes—prompts a larger conversation about respect for athletes in international Taekwondo.
The discussion takes a critical turn toward USA Taekwondo's development pipeline after noting the junior team's underwhelming gold medal count. Unlike other sports with sophisticated talent identification systems and multiple development pathways, Taekwondo in America lacks structured approaches to cultivating future Olympic talent. Financial support comes under fire too, with reports that athletes receive minimal backing for world championships—just registration fees and uniforms while self-funding travel and accommodations.
The episode's highlight is a fascinating exploration of game-changing athletes throughout Taekwondo history. From Steven Lopez's revolutionary leg check (which eventually led to rule changes) to Jung Myung-sam's gravity-defying aerial techniques, the hosts analyze competitors who didn't just excel within the existing paradigm—they forced the sport to evolve around them. Other transformative figures discussed include Dae Hoon Lee, Gabriel Mercedes, Arlene Limas, and Hadi Saei, each bringing unique innovations that permanently altered how future generations approach the sport.
Whether you're a competitive athlete, coach, or passionate fan, this episode offers rare insights into both the current state of Taekwondo governance and the extraordinary individuals who've redefined what's possible within the sport. Share your thoughts on game-changing athletes by emailing the hosts—they're eager to hear from listeners who've stuck around for this deep dive into Taekwondo's past, present, and future.
to the warehouse 15. We were just cutting off Master Moreno, coach Moreno, he was going to say something probably slightly inappropriate, which brings us to rule number one.
Speaker 2:Sorry, not sorry.
Speaker 3:So if you're listening and we offend you, sorry, not sorry. How is everybody doing today? What's going on, mr TJ Coach? What's going on?
Speaker 1:What's up, sir? Chilling, chilling. I just got back from traveling. This past weekend I was in don't butch me, I think it's Queretero. I always mess that word up Queretero, mexico.
Speaker 2:Queretero.
Speaker 1:Queretero, queretero, queretero, mexico.
Speaker 2:You sound like you're Asian Queretero the letters are going to come in now.
Speaker 3:The letters are going to come in now.
Speaker 1:I was there for the under 22 finals, for the Pan Ams and a junior Pan Am championship and cadet Pan Am championship. Happy to be home, get a little rest, keep moving, keep training, can I?
Speaker 3:ask one question now. Yes, sir, why? I just noticed that there are certain people, you know, like certain backgrounds. They always have velvet paintings of dogs or lions on their wall Velvet. Velvet paintings of dogs or lions.
Speaker 2:That's not you. I got the Virgin Maria yeah.
Speaker 3:I see a lion over there and there's a yeah.
Speaker 2:Batman.
Speaker 3:Was that. Did you get that from Costco or was that at a? Oh, dang Dang was that did you get that from costco, or was that?
Speaker 1:at uh, he must, he must, he must have missed me, I think, episode one. He said he liked it. I know he told me before we got on air how much he liked I do, I that's my pain, I gotta get one I go crazy coach moreno, what's going on?
Speaker 2:I'm good I got to show my shirt today. Boy, what's up?
Speaker 3:What's up? What's up, man, man, my kids don't love me, everything's good man, I miss you guys.
Speaker 2:I traveled last weekend. Where was I last weekend, jeez, I forgot when was I. I forgot, I forgot where I was at last weekend. Jeez, can't think, and anyway.
Speaker 3:Getting old. Oh, I was in New York, ah.
Speaker 2:I couldn't, I was in New York. Yeah, I was upstate New York with my coach, tim Toco. I know you guys were in Mexico. I heard all about it, I watched a lot of matches, but yeah, I think we should get into it today and I think we got a couple of cool topics, so it'll be fun.
Speaker 3:Well, that's why you couldn't remember Upstate New York, that's not New York. New York City is New.
Speaker 2:York. I'm going to New York City end of the month.
Speaker 3:There you go. That's New York. Well, listen, I wanted to say thank you. I got a nice letter from Mike Dillard from Century and he said he wouldn't be raising prices even despite the tariff increases, and also James Kim from Muto, so I won't mention the other company, but I know you guys like that other company. They've already raised their pricings. I won't talk about Tusa. Oh, did I say it out loud? But that's no surprise, because there's no loyalty to that company.
Speaker 2:You don't know if they raised their prices. Man, Leave that man alone.
Speaker 3:Oh, I'm sorry. Did I mention his son Kong? Did I mention his name? Did I mention his name? I apologize. We love all our sponsors and once again, thank you to the Budo Brothers for sending me a bunch of cool stuff. And TJ, don't worry, we're going to be calling. We're checking with Target to see if they can get you some stuff.
Speaker 1:If I get Target, I'm bigger than both of y'all. Target would be crazy. I'll try. I think they have those lion paintings on sale.
Speaker 3:I'll try it. I think they have those lion paintings on sale. I'll see if I can get you.
Speaker 2:Should I go get one of my sponsors who just got me? I don't want to do it because then Coach Perez will get mad at me.
Speaker 3:What is it? What's your sponsor?
Speaker 2:I'm not going to show you, because you'll be hating on this certain vendor man. So I'll leave this stuff alone. He gave me some cool stuff. I ain't going to lie guys. He gave me some cool stuff.
Speaker 3:You know what I'm waiting for. I'm waiting for that set of KP&P so that I can test it out. We just invested and bought the other ones, dato or whatever, so that my kids can practice the foot farting Taekwondo that everybody else is doing. So we invested in a bunch of those some ridiculous amount of money. And then I've heard that better is KP&P. But it's hard to tell better because I haven't seen it and how I don't use it. So I'm hoping that better?
Speaker 2:I think, I think that well, I'm hoping that the fairy godfathers or godmothers of kp not getting into ourselves. This is just random ass question. You got one store you can shop at yeah, forever.
Speaker 1:Rest of your life, forever Right now, not food, just one store.
Speaker 2:What is it?
Speaker 1:Oh, like clothing or like everything. Oh dude, it's still got to be Target or Walmart, it's got to be a department store. That's a good one. It has to be. It has to have everything Target or Walmart is pretty good.
Speaker 2:Actually I was saying Dick's Sporting Goods, you can get clothes, you can get equipment and goods because you can get clothes, you can get equipment, you can get fishing. Not really food, though, no, no, I didn't say food, food is different, food is different, like just for your life, like everything you need.
Speaker 1:But you know walmart and, and that you know those are obviously pretty good too, maybe like, maybe like uh, what's that store?
Speaker 2:like rei or whatever, like the outdoor stores, yeah, but like that you can't get like, I guess you know, because they don't have like cool, like you can get like Nike stuff. I don't know, I don't know if they have that stuff.
Speaker 3:Anyway, well, I spend most of my life wild and naked, so I just need food. So we've got these high-end Andronicos or Piazzas and places like that, because I like to cook and most times I cook, you know, al natural. So both in my food and both in clothing, so I don't need REI.
Speaker 2:I don't need any ropes. I'm going to eat none of your food when you're cooking.
Speaker 3:I'm not tying anybody up.
Speaker 2:You guys all mentioned.
Speaker 3:Feel me on that one, hold on a second. You guys both mentioned stores where you can buy shovels, ropes, tape and things that you could use to dispose of dead bodies. I have no interest in that. And things that you could use to dispose of dead bodies. I have no interest in that. Rei I'd love to go to REI. You get what do you call it? Car binders? You can get rope, you cannot ask him a question.
Speaker 1:Do not give him a question. This is what happens.
Speaker 2:Now we're about to tie people up.
Speaker 3:Okay, sorry, back to All right, we're back to.
Speaker 1:I heard there was a tournament All right, we're back to. I heard there was a tournament, or there's a tournament coming up, or oh yeah, no, I was just at the well, it was the U22 finals and the junior and cadet Pan Am championships, and I was actually in the same venue last year. I'm going to tell you this is probably for me, this is the worst venue I've ever seen in my entire life.
Speaker 3:Where was it? Where was it?
Speaker 1:It's in Queretero. Was that good Queretero? Quero what Coach Maher help.
Speaker 3:Quero what. God bless you, it was there. God bless you, it was there. Did you sneeze? It was there. Quero who it was there. And like the whole thing.
Speaker 1:Think about this, think about this and maybe you'll see the whole denarius is outside in the heat under a tent and it's like 90 degrees outside. Yeah, it's crazy, bro. And I'm talking about, let's say, the seniors need to be tough and strong. This is for the cadets and juniors I'm talking about. Let's just start there. And at one point these kids were sitting directly in the sun and then finally someone got smart and went and found a tent to put over them.
Speaker 1:There wasn't a tent at the beginning not for not where they were. You know when they call you to your before the pre-staging there was. There was just sitting on the sun for pre-staging.
Speaker 1:And then I started making my guys just go sit under the tent, on the, the big tent, until they went out, because it's just stupid. You know, the, the bath. I'll say this how about this? And it was better this year. They took the bleachers, the bleachers. There were no bleachers on the left side last year and they added those bleachers, so it gave one more section of seating, so section section, and on the left, but but even still man just being outside all day, the, the, the.
Speaker 1:At one point we had to stop in the middle of matches because the ambulance left to go take someone to the hospital or something to stop in matches partway through um. They were at that point where you know how they don't hold matches, that whole thing. But like, my problem with that was then I get to a ring and I'm waiting 12 to 15 minutes for them to find that the match paper to start my match. So now, when I'm 15 minutes late and now I get stuck over here, now it's, you know, the td won't let us, you know it was just.
Speaker 2:It was like it sounds like an organizational problem. To be honest with you. I mean the venue is bad outside. I mean this, I don't, I don't care if you're adults or juniors or cadets, you shouldn't be working. You know, warming up outside in the sun. I mean we've had some places where they've made some makeshift make shifts, tents and they've had heat or AC in there and it's actually it's not great, but they got mats on the floor. I mean it is what it is, but outside like that that's kind of rough. In the sun that's kind of rough.
Speaker 1:And everything was crazy. I mean, from the time we got there the organizational packet that tells you where to go and where to be for all the events. You get there and it tells you to go to the, the hotel. No, go to the venue for the second day of registration. You get to the venue, then they tell you it's at the hotel and you get back to the hotel and they tell you well, you got to wait till they get to the venue. So they have people taking uber rides back and forth in like 25, 30 minute traffic trying to figure out where to register. How, how can coaches that have been doing this game for so long be asking each other where registration is? That's crazy and literally can't find it. Yeah, it's crazy. Then they have the cadets behind the juniors and the juniors are supposed to know to walk to the front of the line to weigh in before the the. The cadets were supposed to know to weigh in before the juniors. You're talking about kids, so I gotta go out there and figure out this was.
Speaker 1:It was bad, it was overall bad, it was embarrassing. It like is a, you know, talking about mockery. It's a little bit of a mockery of our sport like they don't care, dude. They literally don't care. They have no answers the whole time. Everyone's irritated, everybody's hot. You know I I commend all techno people in that situation. I think we're the only sport that would actually put up with this shit like it's stupid. It's just pure pure stupidity.
Speaker 2:A couple of things. That question, I mean. Number one, I think, um, if not mistaken correct me if I'm wrong they had a Poomsae tournament, under-22 tournament, a cadet championship, a junior championship, a cadet open and a junior open all in the same time, basically.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and even worse. Like you talk about that from like taking the feeling of being special away from the event you did it. Then you talk I'm walking around with like I wish I could find these damn things. I had three tags that I bought 75 a pop to coach in the same venue all weekend and not. I don't think one person really looked at my badge and saw what it said, whether it said under 22 or panams or or whatever.
Speaker 2:All that shit like it's absurd, it's absurd, it's absurd, you know it was not not customer friendly and that's asking a lot from coaches. Like you said, you're their coach. You already paid a coaching fee. Now you've got to pay for a different coach's fee because on Friday you coach an under-22, and on Saturday you're going to coach cadets and then Sunday you're going to coach in the open when you're open you got.
Speaker 1:That's just. Some of the coaches have more because they were doing that plus Poomsae and the Poomsae opened.
Speaker 2:So they were walking around with five different badges they paid for Silly right. I heard that you fixed something to the extent of when you won a match, you had to go all the way outside and go around.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, Somehow you figured out that they could just go ahead.
Speaker 1:So on Friday they were letting you come out the venue at the end and go to the right and you went to the holding area. You were right there. It was like kind of a loop around to the holding, quick, easy, only thing that makes sense. For saturday. For some reason somebody decided that it would be bright to have the kids come out, go left with no shoes on. No, nothing. They're coming off the ring. Go left all the way around the building, back in the front where the spectators go back through the first security gate, then all the way back to holding.
Speaker 1:And they had to hold, they had to go figure. I'm like no, no, no, I forget who walked up to me and said they were doing. I'm like no, we got to figure this out because that makes no sense, and I'm talking it's like a six minute walk around, five minute walk if I'm exaggerating, but it's a huge loop, no shoes outside and that place is not like the super cleanest. There's rocks everywhere and it's just stupid. That was just dumb and they had to. You know they had to go figure out. I forget. One of the referees helped me, my, one of my guys. I can't, I can't remember his name right now, but he, kind of like, went and talked to him and told me it didn't make any sense but he had too many little changes. They kept changing the way the gates went to get to the back. And you know how it is one person tells one person they're in charge, someone else tells they're in charge and people just start switching stuff around. It's just silly.
Speaker 2:I thought it was. I mean, we'll talk about the actual results. But one more thing I heard on, for example, on Sunday, the last day you were there, they did the open first. You talk about taking the special out of the way. They did the open first. They had all the actual championship. People wait until 4 o'clock in the afternoon or something along those lines, and I'm like that kind of sucks, you know like why should? Why should the actual event be delayed? Right, they should be the first ones. I mean, let the open people come afterwards. Right, they're secondary at this point. No offense, but that's the truth.
Speaker 1:That's crazy, yeah, but they let the and even even for the random weigh-ins. They were late for the random weigh-ins. The random weigh-ins time was posted wrong. It was like some absurd amount of time for the random weigh-ins and then they still didn't get there. They had kids coming at 7.30. Oh my God, before I forget Just what you just said, they changed it around in the middle of the night, at 11.53. For that day, on Sunday, for the juniors, everyone thought the Junior Pan Am Championships was going to go first, and then the cadet opened. A message came out at 11.54 pm on Saturday night saying oh, by the way, we're going to do the cadets first and the juniors at four, but why, I have no idea. Someone decided that maybe they wanted to get out of there earlier, but they changed it at almost midnight on Saturday. I'm calling around to other coaches. People are calling me. I'm calling around the other coaches. People are calling me. I'm trying to figure out which group goes first, cause it depends on what time you got to be there.
Speaker 1:You know they got. You got guys having to cancel buses that they had for their teams to get over there just so they could get there at the right time to come back. And it's great at midnight. And then you message them and nobody answers.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, let's talk about a little bit about the under 22 event, because I know this was you know, master President, what it was is there was a series of four events, okay, and you had to go to three out of the four events to qualify. And then what they did is they took a point total for all those wins and losses and they ranked the top eight people, okay, and those eight people get to go to the Junior Pan Am Games that they're having this year, and it's a multi-sport event, it's all their different disciplines, but Taekwondo is involved in that, and the winners of that junior, if they get gold medal at that event, they get to go to the actual Pan Am Championships in 2027. So it was a series that was done in Mexico, peru, cuba and back in Mexico. Those were the four, so this was the final one and it's kind of again, this is kind of crazy, because I just told you about the top eight, but then they had designated Peru and Cuba. If you got first or second, you got a wild card to the Pan Am Championships next year, so there's an extra little bonus. And then, after all that and this tournament, this single tournament, if you got top eight, you got a wild card to the Pan Am Championships next year on the senior level.
Speaker 2:So, although there was qualifying for the Pan Am Games, there was this extra bonus that you could get to the Pan Am Championships. So theoretically, if I do my math correctly, you could have two from Peru, two from Cuba and eight from here, and then national teams. So let's just say, hypothetically, the United States had one there, one there, one there, and then you get four people in the Pan Am Championships next time. I don't know if any countries will have that, but it was a little crazy. But I want to ask you, tj, what did you think about the level of the under 22 at that event? Because I'm gonna brag for a second, but I know that brazil qualified every division for the penham games on, on both sides, for the male and female.
Speaker 1:Honestly, honestly, I think the earlier ones uh, came off to me as a little bit stronger, um, like that first one we did in queretaro, I think. A lot of people showed up, yeah, and they kind of like diminished like lower, lower a little bit as you went across the board. But that's probably why they added that Pan Am Championship thing and they go entice more people to show up and make a little bit more money.
Speaker 1:You know 100%. But I like watching under 22 for this region and it kind of gives you an insight to like even from for me. This one time I actually sat down and watched the cadet level and the junior level and the Pan Am region and like kind of had a taste of all three. And you look at the new developing seniors. You got to get to see like the trend of the countries and who's kind of building, who's growing, who's expanding, who's shrinking, what's changing. But it was a good event.
Speaker 1:From the showing of the athletes, you know you had some big names in there. I know you were going to talk about a sumo like Henrique coming back and doing the 80 for the last one. I mean, those are not easy events to do when you're supposed to be the big dog in the room. You know we all know how the pressure is. But he handles it well. It was nice seeing him fight this weekend and kind of be in some tough spots and work his way out of it. So it was cool. But yeah, overall I'll let you go. But under 22 for me I think this time was just it was OK. It was OK, I think, dealing with all the other stuff on the outside just kind of made it worse for me. But the level, decent, some like still some decent 68 fights were decent.
Speaker 2:I saw that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a lot of the 58, some of the 58 fights were decent, so you had your showings and you had some your battles, so it was fun to watch.
Speaker 2:I mean I'm going to give like a couple of teams credit. Like, I looked at the Chilean team, they you can tell they're building for the future. They got a good 58 boy. They got a good 68 boy. They got a couple of good young ladies. I mean they're you could see they don't have many people, but the ones they have are very quality, so I give them credit.
Speaker 2:Mexico was just, I would say, kind of average um the um. I was really, you know, shocked that we didn't see any dominicans or anything like that in any of any high level. Um, obviously, brazil, I mean we're investing in a lot of these kids, um, we're actually taking up three of them actually with us to uzbekistan later on this month, um, because we just feel like they're going to be the heir apparent in some division. So that's kind of cool. But yeah, I thought it was a good level. But I would agree with you, I think the first series was like the best and it just kind of slowly kind of diminished a little bit. And then, of course, the United States, on the cadet and junior level, won first overall. I mean, I think the cadets this is kind of how it usually works on the cadet level, I think we usually dominate and then it kind of is a slow slide, you know, to juniors, and then it's the seniors where we just become middle of the road.
Speaker 2:I was a little shocked. I'm not going to be, you know, I think we have to be objective here. I was a little shocked on the junior side that the boys only got one gold medal, which is really surprising. I cannot remember a team.
Speaker 1:Okay, go ahead, you finish. I was about to ask that question.
Speaker 2:No, I just don't remember us not having two, three, four gold medals, and we didn't even get the one that won it. His name is Josh Alada. He's won four junior Pan Am.
Speaker 2:I think two juniors and won two cadets. He's won four gold medals in a row. He's a big, strong, 78-kilo guy. So we didn't even win any of these. You know the 50 kilos, 49 kilos, but those are some of the money divisions, right? Some of those kids are like badass little kids and we didn't have too much luck, you know. So that's a little scary, if you ask me, yeah, I forgot about that too and I mean to be honest with you, we got first. United states. Guys say we keep saying it usa got first overall.
Speaker 2:But they also had about 11 or 12 more wild cards on the junior level. Matter of fact, like one of the one girls that from peak, she, uh, she won a gold medal. She wasn't even with the national team. She got a wild card via the canada open and she went there and she won a gold medal. So so if you took that person off the national team, you got three women and one man. You got four gold medals. You know what I'm saying. I mean that's a little small for the junior side, cadet side. I think the kids both sides were I hate to use the word dominant, but they were pretty strong. They won a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I wonder what the actual stat on that is. It feels like I don't know. Like I said, this is the one time I actually got to sit down and watch them, like kind of focus, and watch them all the way through. I just it's, like you said, it seems like an underperformance to me. You know what I mean. It seems like I don't remember, at a time our juniors were a little bit stronger than talking just from the guy side, you know, and we're talking about eight.
Speaker 1:We're talking and again, maybe I'm wrong, maybe somewhere a little bit bigger, but we're talking eight to twelve people, divisions, well like oh, they're small.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're not talking.
Speaker 1:Nobody had 16 yeah, we're not talking like deep divisions either, you know. So that's. And there were some kids that were rocking and rolling.
Speaker 1:Don't get me wrong, a lot of. There's some good guys, I think. There I can't I don't know his name, but I think there was a 51 junior kid that was pretty slick. I think he came up short in the finals against I don't know. I don't know what country. He was pretty slick. We had some good people out there fighting. I just questioned. I know I had a couple people come up to me and ask me questions about the coaching staff. Obviously, always the question is why am I not on the coaching staff? That was one of the parents that asked me. Why am I not on the coaching staff? That was one of the parents that asked me and just kind of some concerns about how their kid was handled during the trip or someone wasn't paying attention or something like that. And again, I don't hear nor there. But I think you have to at that level we need to make it. I don't know. Some of these kids were fighting well, doing things well, and it came up a little short.
Speaker 2:That's all I'm saying, saying, I think I will say for the cadet cadet side man that may know a coach. Uh, the vs have a kid, josh. That's the bad, I tell you. That's a bad little boy man. That's a bad dude. I love that kid. And joseboni, uh, perez out of colorado has a good kid, nathaniel, that won a gold medal too. And they're getting ready for cadet world.
Speaker 2:I expect them to do well, but you know I I'm gonna go back to a conversation we had a long time ago in Master Pres. You can correct me if I'm wrong. There's a lot of talk about how some of the top, top coaches should be at the bottom, bottom level. Because, tj, you talked about that when you were young, to see some of the top coaches there to give you that inspiration, that guidance, that belief, it kind of gave you a little bit more. And again, nothing against the staff, because I don't know them personally. I didn't. I have no idea what they did or didn't do, but I'm talking about national teams, senior national teams have. I think they should be there in some capacity I don't care if they're sitting in the stands like this and just take an inventory of how their kids go, how they act, how they fight, how they react. And those are the ones you want to look to invest in.
Speaker 2:Again, for the U-22s, we had one of our national team coaches, coach Erickson. He was there, he managed all the kids and the ones that were fighting for the U-22s and I think that's just the way you got to do it. You got to have some of those top-level people with eyes in real time, because even me, me, we all know you watch on on video and on screen. You can get a, you get a sense, but it's not the same as being there. It is not the same as being in the venue and feeling.
Speaker 1:So yeah, so I'm not even just so I'm clear before. I'm not even talking about the, the coaches per se. I'm just saying, historically, on stat wise, we've done better than this historically at the, the junior, the pan am championship level for our juniors, correct I'm a gold medal, for sure, yeah yeah, so you have to I mean they got good.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you have to you have to understand that, like, uh, certainly the listeners listeners should understand that if you're going to develop a pipeline in that pipeline there are many parts to it, but there are many important parts of it that are external to it, that are part of the infrastructure of it. And I can only go back to some of the events that I look at in another sport, and so in this particular sport, my son participates, which we've talked about before. They have three different vehicles for defining and understanding talent and they have at least two, maybe three different pipelines. So they have an Olympic development program, they have an MLS program, then they have the regular league programs, and at each of these events there are eyes on kids. So when a kid gets to a certain level, they have eyes on those kids to see which kids are developing. They have a platform that's nationwide. That's a video platform that every single game that's played in this league is put on the platform. So if there's a game, the game is uploaded and, using AI technology, they identify the child by number and create a highlight reel for every individual player. So, in addition to having the full game on, coaches now have access to individual players and their highlights.
Speaker 3:They then twice a year have a showcase event where every team in the country goes to this showcase event. That's in this league and they have random draws and they compete at least four matches and then they have a playoff and then a cup and the people that get through the league get an opportunity to play in the playoffs and the people that get through the showcase and make it through that get to the playoff. At the playoff they have another one where it's just the playoff for the cup and then they have another showcase. So at these events are 100 to 200 of the top coaches in the D1 programs in the United States. So there are 211 D1 schools for this particular sport. In addition to that the D3s are there and the D2s and the professional teams. So there's at least guys with eyes on kids. Because the funnel there's 100% of the kids who play club soccer or MLS club soccer, academy soccer, play club soccer or MLS club soccer, academy soccer. 100% of those kids. From that 100%, only 1% get to D1, 1% and the same for D3 and so on and so forth. But the quality of player that they get and when they identify them is what matters, because then all of a sudden you get these plays being identified at 12, 13, 14, 15 for sure, 16 and then finally at 17 before they get to college. So you get very high level players that are transitioning into these other higher leagues and this is something that's not occurring in certainly in taekwondo in this country. And it's interesting because arguably 4% of the people in the country do martial arts, which is a large number, and probably 1% do taekwondo.
Speaker 3:Unfortunately, in the pipeline for USA Trash I mean taekwondo, usa Trash, taekwondo I get those mixed up. This particular pipeline, managed by one of the most unsuccessful athletes in the sport, doesn't do that. So there is no pipeline, there's no identification process and the eyes on people tend to be private coaches and private programs. So if you look at private programs in the United States, the most successful private program in the United States and I don't say this because you guys are on it is PEAK. There hasn't been a program in the United States including mine which had a lot of success for a lot of years that has regularly put people in the pipeline, on the podium and on national teams and Olympic stages. So when you're looking at that sort of success and I'm not saying it because Coach Moreno's here.
Speaker 3:Why aren't you utilizing that talent? Well, we are. Other countries are In the United States. Even its program, like you just said, can't put people on a podium. So at the point where your podium performance is lacking and you can't put people on, then the pipeline is broken. But at the lowest level, I agree with you. If you're going to design, a great program.
Speaker 3:You got to have the best coaches at the lowest level identifying talent, developing talent. The best, not the worst.
Speaker 2:The best at the next level go ahead no, but for me, I'm just saying like I I think your, your description of a pipeline and athlete identification is is awesome. I mean, it's great, and I'm talking. We already got the kids there. They're already there at the top. However, they got there, they made the national team, they got a wild cards. However, they got there, they're there. My point is is those top coaches, we're not really selecting them in the future, but we should at least have our eyes on them so that we can identify them, maybe invite them to camps, maybe give them other opportunities so that when they move up the age brackets, they're ready to do something. Because we talked about this last time with Mr Lewis we know that the age for the Olympics is 18 to 22, 23. Okay, so if we're not looking at these 14 and 15-year-olds, coach Jennings, what are we doing? What are we doing?
Speaker 1:Just kind of hoping. We're shaking it up and throwing them out and saying we hope somebody will be good Also they didn't spend $1 other than registration for those kids to go to this event and the t-shirts and stuff they got them. They didn't pay for hotel, they didn't pay for flights, they only pay for registration, registration and like team kits or whatever you want to call it.
Speaker 3:Well, how was? How was Steve McNally and Jay Warwick supposed to get to Korea to eat Calbee?
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You got to save money for that trip. I thought they had so much money.
Speaker 3:No, but you got to save money for Jay and Steve to go drink soju with Cho. I mean, you got to? No, no, let's get our priorities right. It's more important for Jay to go back to Korea so he can get away from the United States and his life, and McNally to get to Korea to drink soju with Cho.
Speaker 3:This is more important than athletic development, because podium performance doesn't matter when the United States doesn't care and, to be clear, the membership of USA Taekwondo doesn't care. It cares because it doesn't care, because it wouldn't have the coaches it has and it wouldn't allow the performance. It would fire everyone. So when we didn't have performance, let's be clear, we didn't have performance. We had a problem and we got rid of people that didn't perform. We got rid of athletes that didn't perform. We got rid of coaches that didn't perform. We cleaned our own house. In this particular, particular situation, the membership that stayed is drunk with power and it and it stays because it doesn't have a choice and they've bought into the dream. They have a better chance of getting struck by lightning twice or once than they have of one of their kids making a national team and hitting a podium, and they don't care, because they've been bought.
Speaker 3:They they've been bought that. They've been sold that dream and they've bought it. This is worse than the NBA dream.
Speaker 2:The NBA. Are they paying for anything for the world championships? Do you know, tj From?
Speaker 1:what I heard, the answer is no. Wow, from what I heard, is the same thing Registration, that's it From what I heard, that's it from what I heard, and if I'm wrong, I please someone, get her and tell me I'm wrong. That's all I want.
Speaker 2:Just tell me I'm wrong tell me, tell me to get my facts straight or something like that, because you're gonna say something else, though you were gonna say something, um no it's just, it's, it's a joke.
Speaker 1:I mean like the, I mean even, like you know, and I say I say even, but au is refunds their guys, their, their their hotel. You got atu sends them almost, I think almost free flight, hotel and everything. You got other organizations that aren't the national governing body fully funding things for the, for development only, not even for winning. For development only.
Speaker 2:Like not even on national teams. They're not even national teams, they're just like doing it to help these kids get experience, and they're doing it.
Speaker 1:And I got one question what is an administrative fee? Why do I have to? When I registered, I went to register for the American East Open and it's 80 bucks and it's 80 bucks for the thing and then like a $5 administration fee, like who's administrating this? Why am I paying more money?
Speaker 2:No, no, it's, it's, it's, it is 80, and then there's an administration fee, like I'm looking at the coaches thing.
Speaker 1:That's the coaches thing, yeah the coaches, yeah.
Speaker 2:And then I saw 80 and five. Oh, that's, but for the athletes it's the tournament, your division, and then that fee, so it's like 160 and then five, like I don't just what I'm gonna say, uh, I mean, I'm sure mean for just a. They charge that in. But what is a division fee? Tj, I got to pay $100 to get to the event and then $60 to pick my division. Just tell me it's $160.
Speaker 1:Yeah, don't do that to me.
Speaker 2:What is that?
Speaker 1:That's silly because they want people picking multiple divisions maybe to pay, I don't know. But like I'm sorry, I'm stuck on the administrative fee part.
Speaker 1:Don divisions, maybe to pay, I don't know, but like I'm sorry, I'm stuck on the administrative fee part. Don't they all, don't they all work? The administrative fee is like just kind of like what? The people that are the credit card processing, like the the money they're getting charged, they're making everybody else pay for it and they're taking zero dollars of those funds and giving it back to the junior cadet team zero so we're taking administrative fees and it's going nowhere. Like something has to like it's silly.
Speaker 2:It's silly. Hey, I want to switch up. Me and you had a conversation. Sorry, man. We had a conversation about something a couple weeks ago and I thought it'd be fun to talk about for a little bit here today. Do you remember that conversation about? I do, I do.
Speaker 3:I mean so. In any sport and you can think of literally any sport in any sport there is someone that comes in and by themselves they change the landscape of the sport, the technical paradigms of the sport, they change the way that the sport is performed and they find a new way to do something that does one of two or three things, and sometimes it's an individual technique, but in most cases it's an individual. The individual becomes an outlier, becomes a person that changes the sport forever, and you and I were talking about this in the sense of I'm not talking about somebody who's good at the sport and uses the existing rules to be good at the sport and uses the existing rules to be good at the sport, and we'll talk about a few of those.
Speaker 3:But I'm talking about somebody who comes into the sport, looks at the rules and either consciously or subconsciously changes the way he views this or she views that sport and changes the way the sport is executed and makes an impact that stays on the sport forever and in some cases, when they're gone, the sport remains the same.
Speaker 2:But they were unique in the sport, so I thought that was an interesting conversation we should, we should, we should go and see if, like that kind of individual, like each person pick one and then kind of recycle, like give me one, like just pick one, then you pick one, I pick one and just keep. You know, keep going, because I have I've been thinking about this a lot and I have I'll let you guys go first.
Speaker 1:You want to go?
Speaker 2:I'll do it. I have a. I mean I got a lot, this one's kind of a bad one, a boring one, but because I have other ones that are a little bit more fun to talk about. But I'll say one of the biggest sports changers in the history of our sports so far is Steven Lopez.
Speaker 2:Because, Steven Lopez. That's an easy one, because Steven Lopez had the leg check and he, literally before him and even after it, was so dominant he looked at how to stop Correa by putting his right leg forward and blocking their right leg with his leg check and kicking afterwards that we now have rules, that says you can't do that anymore, and we all agree on it. But that was part of the game. Leg checking was part of it. I mean, we hated it in practice. Right, if someone leg checked me in practice, I would try to freaking kill them because I'm like bro, this is not the place. But in a match, a guy kicked in my stomach. I leg checked that fool all day. I pick up my shipment and kick my shin. I mean, that's just what people did, you know, back in that time. But Steven Lopez, along with his front leg learning how to, and he used it as a defensive tactic. That's what it was. It wasn't to hurt, it was a defensive tactic to shut people down.
Speaker 2:And if you look at the history of Steven Lopez, people didn't score on this dude. They didn't get a touch out of him, you know, and not till later in his career. Later in his career, he took some shots. We can talk about that, but in his heyday. I'm talking 2000, 2004, 2000, 2004, 2000. That dude was hard to score on. He was so long with the front leg, such a good checking with it. Like he might be one of the greatest all times of changing the way people look at the sport, changing the way people played the sport for that era. So I'll use that one. I don't know, you guys can comment or give me a new one.
Speaker 3:I'm going to. I'm going to go on a different direction only because that certainly was a game changer and he is an athlete, evolved a lot and I have a lot of respect for what he did in the game. He understood the game and he used his body, his body type, his sport intelligence, sport IQ to win a lot of matches and not get scored on, and so that there's no denying that. And then he actually got pretty good at taekwondo towards the mid part of his career and then he stayed in the room too long and you know which, which happens from time to time. But there is an athlete that um from korea that I always mention in this, in this breath, and I'm going to take in a slightly different direction, and he was called the Leaper. That was Jung Yong-sam, and may he rest in peace because he passed away.
Speaker 3:But this cat, like he, would. He understood what the rules were, but he had the physical attributes to be able to do things that other people simply couldn't do. He could do a round kick, turn in the air before he landed and do a back kick. He could leap up in the air, hang and then put his foot. We were at the 1987 world championships and when he didn't make the team for whatever reason, he did a demonstration where he literally took one step and jumped over a five foot some inch guy's head and broke a board with a flying sidekick both legs over it. One step, not two steps. When he did it I had to pause and think about what he did and then saw it on review on videotape. It was unbelievable what he did and he would do this in matches.
Speaker 2:He wouldn't just do it for demo go ahead all right, yeah, you also. He didn't make the team. He went to the world championships.
Speaker 3:He did a demonstration he didn't make the team. In 87 they had a different featherweight, who, by the way, got knocked out by sweden, and then the swedish coach came in and was running around so long that he got up and still managed to beat the Swedish kids somehow, after being unconscious from an up ball. But Jung. Yong-seom in 87 didn't make the team and then went on to make the 88 Olympic team.
Speaker 2:I know that, but did he do a demonstration at that world championship?
Speaker 3:With the Kukiwon demonstration team.
Speaker 2:Yeah, You're a mad fool. You compete at people's ass and they do a demonstration too. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Like imagine you or I, we don't make an Olympic team, we don't make a national team, and then we're going to travel with the B team and go do a demonstration. I'm like, nah, I'm good, I'll stay home, I'll wait for the next event. But this cat like I saw him fight so many times and all you got to do is go watch him fight at the olympics. This was a guy that transcended the rules and and and, to be honest, at a much higher level of skill than stephen lopez, um, and almost any american. Um. Well, I mean, we had a handful of guys that were technically he.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, he was unique. No, you're right. I remember jumping up and doing stuff in the air Just unbelievable how.
Speaker 3:How. And more importantly, how do you fight a guy like that? How do you fight one of these guys who can just fly through the air, doesn't care what you do and just is going to do what he does?
Speaker 2:He looked like he was playing, like he was just trying to invent something to hit you with, but with. We have a couple people now do some crazy stuff, but like he was a, he was unique, he was special and he was. He was just different. He was definitely an outlier.
Speaker 3:Listen, I'll give cj as much as I give him garbage, because he can't win cj. Whatever his name is, he's going to get it, he'll get, get it. What's his name?
Speaker 1:Nicholas.
Speaker 3:CJ Nicholas when he gets on the Olympic podium, you know where he should be. I'll give him my props.
Speaker 2:I think all the people we're going to probably talk about, are they. They were unique and then they excelled.
Speaker 3:CJ apparently has the ability to do some interesting stuff and he does stuff that's kind of freakishly. Whatever, he doesn't have the sophistication and maturity yet to do it in a way that a Jang Myung-sam does. He just does it. I'll liken him to Hyun Lee, who was on the team with all of us, and Hyun was another guy who just could do a lot of stuff not on the level of Jang Myung-sam, but he would just try ridiculous stuff.
Speaker 3:A guy who was more effective than him was, uh, james viassano, our teammate. James, this cat, he could do it all and he wasn't inventing stuff, but he was doing it with courage and flourish and he was able to do it in a way where it was effective because, as you're fighting him like a mark lopez, mark l Lopez at the world championships, where they all won, marky was doing stuff that you just shouldn't do, but he did it anyway and he did it with confidence and it worked, because he's fighting guys and they're like he's not going to do a not abundance switches if he didn't do not a bunch of the other side. So, but anyway, tj, you're up.
Speaker 2:Oh, you got TV Um up.
Speaker 1:Oh, you got tv, um, don't, don't, don't say, don't say me, don't say me, no, I'm here, die line, die line. Um, no. For me I would say I'm gonna kind of get trying in the middle of this like electronic era kind of the switch over and all that stuff like that. For me I would have to say and I'll give you the reason why it would be a day only in 68, and I say that because I think he fought in an era where all the flicky prevalent stuff was strong, all the weird stuff was strong, and he managed to still have a little we use the word old school, but I mean a little bit more emotional movement, a little bit more solid shots, a little bit more like direct play shots that still were able to win. And I'm going to say consistently.
Speaker 1:And that's big for me, because when I think about, like when I'm training my guys, or how people are fighting, when we talk about some of the best people in the world, it's all those like undertones of body control, undertones of like shot selection, undertones of like being able to move their feet when they need to, undertones of understanding the length and the distance and power levels and all that stuff, stuff like that. So I would say for me in the electronic era right now, it would be. I think he changed it a little bit. I think this little switch we're starting to see where we're going back to a lot more back leg and a lot more solid shots. I'm gonna say he made that visible for everyone to see that you're going that way still I think I'm gonna concur.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna concur with that too, tj, because I think he was the first one that took the old school cerebral kind of approach to how do I set things up, how do I trap, how do I score, along with understanding how the system works, versus. I mean, in that era it was kick it, kick it, kick it, kick it, kick it and whatever. And I heard you always say whatever thing lands first. Right, I think he was cerebral, he was technical, he understood how the system worked and he did not fight like everybody else.
Speaker 1:I saw him fight. He fought one of his Korean teammates at the Grand Prix final and I think where was that? Anyways, it was in the United area. Where was it? Where's the junior team about to go?
Speaker 2:Oh.
Speaker 1:Dubai. It's close to Dubai.
Speaker 2:Fajara, fajara, fajara to go oh Dubai. It's close to Dubai. Fajar, fajar, fajar.
Speaker 1:Fajar, yes, yes, yes, sorry, sorry, and I'm going to tell you to see the level difference between the A team and the quote-unquote B team. He put up like 50-plus points on this kid. Like I think this kid did something. He spun on him early and scored and Dae Hoon went on furious like a rat. I mean he's scoring back kick after back kick after face shot after punch, knocking him out of the ring and I'm like that goes to show you we always talk about the level of korea being high. He's doing that to this guy that probably would get in everybody else's way and put a lot of points on them. He just blew him out of the water. So for me I would say day, who went just in the midst of the electronic era and it being so tall and long and lanky stuff, I go with him.
Speaker 2:Man, I'm going to give somebody a crazy dude because, man, I got so many I'm looking at. I'll let you guys talk. I'm going to go with. I got Gabriel Mercedes Chumuyen Hadi.
Speaker 1:I got.
Speaker 2:I'm going to go with Chumuyen. No, gabriel Mercedes. I'm going to go with Gabriel Mercedes, and I'll tell you why Because he came from an island that's about that big and prior to him had no Olympic success, maybe a tough fighter here or there, but he was doing things. That dude is the one that invented the twist kick in Taekwondo and he hit people with a skipping like we would do fast kick, a skipping twist kick. So loud, so clean, and referees wouldn't push the buttons because they had never seen it before. I coached against him. When he did that thing to someone I was coaching like three times. I'm like, yo, like, but it was so wild.
Speaker 2:And again, adding in the spinning and the dynamic of changing directions, he was truly a gem. He was unique and he was. He reminded me of a boxer from Puerto Rico or Dominican Republic. Like he, he not only had the changed techniques, he not only had the athleticism, but he had the will to fight Like he, he, he looked like fighting was personal to him and all along that it looked personal. He looked like he was having fun, like he was smiling. He's pointing at people in the stands. He was a showman Like I don't think I've ever seen anybody in the sport again different techniques, different style, rough but athletic and having fun at the same time. He was just super, super unique to me and just a monster. I think he paved the way for all of Dominican Republic and they've had pretty good success. They're a little bit down right now, but after him they have some pretty good guys.
Speaker 3:Yeah well, you mentioned Servette and I'm going to let you go back to Servette, but I'm going to pick somebody from the United States. I'm going to pick you go back to Servette, but I'm going to pick somebody from the United States. I'm going to pick Arlene Lemus. And the reason I'm going to pick Arlene is Arlene changed the landscape of the game for everyone, and you too, juan. We're doing things that shouldn't have been able to be done against seasoned, knowledgeable taekwondo players who are used to dealing with cut kicks and push kicks and face whatever kicks. And Arlene goes in that same room with you. And, to be honest, park Bun Kwon.
Speaker 3:Because Park Bun Kwon in 85, when he was 16 years old, at a world championships, was side kicking guys in the face, lifting his leg up, and he was doing our lean before our lean was doing our lean right, like people would look at the foot and it was up there and then they would be kicked in the face. I mean good fighters, you know, know so like you, and he fought with so much confidence and a plume. He wasn't doing anything creative and new, but he was doing it really well again and, and to be honest, when you shouldn't have been able to do it. In other words, if you lifted your leg up and did that kind of face kick, you would get underkicked. You know Padre Chagir underneath it all the time. But apparently I mean I trained with him at Chede for a lot of years and we became friends over the years. When he came here I never got hit with that, but then again I never tried to underkick it. So I don't know.
Speaker 2:Let me ask you, though I agree with you about Arlene, so how would you assess her being like, freakishly unique and changing everything?
Speaker 3:Technically she changed that. She didn't, and that's a one and done. So she came in, she changed the landscape, got an Olympic gold medal and then the division didn't change. So it didn't have an impact on the division, wasn't like? People went out and tried to be Arlene? Um, so in that sense she was. She was a Jung Myung-Sum. Right, like Jung Myung-Sum, what he did. Nobody else came in and tried to do it. Maybe arguably, gabriel, gabriela, whatever his name is and, um, maybe he did, but Arlene's thing was unique. She didn't change the game, you know, and the only thing I can give you is like I was always fighting, tall guys, right, and you guys know this about me. So I would put my hand down on the floor when I would back hook kick sometimes because I was fighting.
Speaker 2:I'm done. Yeah, I'm done.
Speaker 1:Oh no, now it is Five off the board.
Speaker 3:That's the Perez rule. They made that rule for me because I was putting my head down on the floor and knocking guys out, and then, finally, they got to a point okay, your hand touched the floor. This is a come junk, right. And so Arlene changed the game for herself. Steven Lopez changed the game for the game. They made what he did illegal. They made what I did illegal. They made what I did illegal. They made what certain people do did illegal and they don't understand it.
Speaker 3:Um, and I'm not to put myself in the category of any of those, those guys, but I mean, I'll give you, um, a guy whose speed changed the game for that division, and that's jimmy kim. So you take a jimmy kim who was good at taekwondo, but he wasn't like you know, like it wasn't like all, all of his kicks were perfect or amazing. He was just so god-awful fast and powerful that people didn't see that. You didn't understand it. So he would do things that a heavyweight shouldn't be able to do, just basic techniques that hit people, and he would change the game where people started to change the kind of heavyweights they were looking for, including Korea. Korea did Korea, did Korea changed the way they developed heavyweights.
Speaker 2:I was going to say that I was going to be like I mean, I love Jimmy, he's one of our best friends and everything, but I mean I think that I don't think that heavyweight changed for good until like now. I think now you're starting to see some pretty athletic. You're seeing a lot of middleweights fighting heavyweights and they're doing extremely well because they're big enough but they're agile. I, they're big enough but they're agile. I think Korea did that to beat Jimmy, but I don't think many other countries did that. There were still a bunch of kind of heavy, slower guys other than Korea. Koreans got smaller and they were trying to do some things to beat the good thing for everybody. Jimmy just said deuces, I'm out. He got his gold medal and he said none of you guys are guys gonna see me ever again? And so you know, we never really know. I, I, I always wished jimmy would have fought another cycle, because I think we would have seen his greatness even like the highest level.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he hadn't he, he hadn't peaked, jimmy hadn't peaked and he knew that, but he was smart. You know, and the advice I always give and I gave this advice to, um, a number of guys who were winning I said, okay, there's nothing that another Olympic gold medal is going to do for you. So think about your transition and retire. Don't stay on too long because you need to do other stuff and stuff and um, you know, and that depends on the athlete, you can't really talk to athletes about that kind of thing, but with Jimmy, jimmy's dad and his family were very um maybe they're both rest in peace were very set on his plan for what he needed to do, why he was doing it, and um, it's great to have an olympic gold medal, it's great to have any olympic medal, but you don't need two, you don't need three, and I know one. You have two and and stuff like that, but you got to fight till your heart tells you you don't need two, you don't need three, and I know, Juan you have two and stuff like that.
Speaker 3:But you got to fight till your heart tells you you don't want to fight anymore and you got to do what you have to do and get on with your life. And there's so many athletes that don't transition well, they don't transition from their fighting days to the next stage of their life, and whenever I talk to athletes I kind of remind them of that you ever still miss it.
Speaker 3:you ever still miss me I, I, I was always a transition kind of person. I, I don't even when I stopped. The only thing I wish I and I don't want to even say that because I had made a decision after 92, I should have fought one more year, 93, at the world championships of madison square garden, because it's my city, it's new york, and I probably would have won. But I had made a promise to my uh, my student and my athlete that I would retire and he would go and Peter Bardatos was that student and I made that promise to Sean Burke. Both of them were training with me and I said I would retire and it was their time. And so I went on to coach and get on with law school and other stuff and it was the best decision I made because Sifu Paul Vizio, sifu Vizio, had said to me why do you want to fight? He said you already won. He said you won't have the same intensity, you won't have the same fire.
Speaker 3:But, more importantly, who's going to care? You win a world championships, who cares the Olympics? Who's going to care you win a world championships? Who cares the Olympics? You, the Olympics, I care, but the Olympics is a different thing. You guys know, because you're Olympians. You can tell people about the world championships, they don't care. They don't care about the Pan Am Games, they don't care about any of that. We care in our sport, but at the end of the day, the most important stage you'll be on is the Olympic stage, and that's what people it's a. There's a reason. There's a reason why it matters more than anything else.
Speaker 3:But athletes, transitions are tough for most athletes, and you know a dear friend of ours. He made a decision not to compete any longer because of his knees and he transitioned into other things and became a professor. And he transitioned into other things and became a professor, a double professor. He was 87 Pan Am gold medalist, most likely would have medaled at the Olympic Games, and was the one guy from the United States that could have given Park Bun Kwan a run for his money, and that's Dr Kaepner right. So he understood the game. He was a great fighter. He was tall, long and straight, but he had knee challenges and there were political challenges because back then the Koreans were so corrupt. They were corrupt, corrupt beyond belief to the point where it affected the 88 team and it probably affected the 92 team, if you let it. So he probably made a great decision, which is a is a tough thing for people to hear, but um well, you got tj, let's get another one, another one for me, you're up, you're up.
Speaker 1:I don't got nothing on my head right now. I got lost in his story.
Speaker 3:I'm listening oh sorry, going back to 1923. Oh my God, you got to give Hadi his props, because Hadi won a bunch of stuff, he mastered the timing and you got to put Victor Estrada in there too.
Speaker 1:How did he change the game? How did he change the game?
Speaker 3:Victor Estrada too. They both understood distance for that division, and they made people simple technique?
Speaker 1:Did they change the game for them or for everybody?
Speaker 2:No, no, wait, wait, let me take a shot. No, I don't think Victor did. Victor was good at Taekwondo and he won a lot of stuff. I don't think he changed anything.
Speaker 3:No, he's a good fighter.
Speaker 2:Here's why Hadi changed the game, because again, think about the era People were doing Hadi. I'll never forget it. The first time I saw him really in life was 1999, world Championships. His first match of the day. He fought the Egyptian world champion and beat him like 12 to 0. It was ridiculous. I never seen anything like it. He was the first person to say you know what? You move, I'm kicking out in motion. And then the second time you do it, you move, I'm kicking out in motion. And then the second time you do it, you move, I'm going to kick and double. Remember the back. In those times, the 99 people move, they just boom kick to the butt, boom, boom kick, like he didn't give up space, he didn't look, and then he would just literally encroach on you. That that came kicking on motion.
Speaker 2:You would get trapped you were not good, and you had to be brutal to do that because you might kick a shin, a knee, an elbow. And all the iranians adapted that, and then the egyptians did, and then the turkish did, and then the koreans did. It literally changed the game. So, and again before him, iran was not a powerhouse, iran was. I mean I fought iran at a world cup and it was like I didn't worry about it, like it was nothing. Now, after 98, 99, that's when you started seeing everybody, you know, excel b box of the world, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I think hottie was, I mean, the dude even. I mean I know this transcends outside the sport. I mean he's the president of their federation. Oh no, he's a, yeah, he's a force.
Speaker 3:He's a force, but you know we didn't mention his name and it's got to be mentioned in the same breath because, you know, the greatest, the greatest taekwondo competitor ever, bar none eclipses everyone is jungkook young. And so jungkook young was a game changer, not for any individual technique, but for his understanding of the game as a whole. He was a guy that had everything on both sides, understood how it fit and understood strategically how to win any match anywhere.
Speaker 2:I mean yeah.
Speaker 3:And he'd like an 87, he goes in, he's fighting this kid I can't remember where it's from and he's losing. First round one zero. Second round two zero. He's going into the third round, either two zero or three zero. Hasn't scored a point, doesn't sweat it, goes in and like pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop pop and just takes it back.
Speaker 3:So this guy, to be clear, he was undefeated, undefeated internationally, for a period of eight to 10 years, and so he is a smart player. Years, and so he is a smart player. I'm not sure that he could translate that to others in the sense of coaching, which is another question. You know, how does a great athlete that becomes a good coach? But he, you can't have a conversation about guys who transcended the game because he changed that division. He changed that division forever, for a very, very long time, when it was tough to do, and I, so I, I, um, he's not that. And this gives me back to the probably the most important point. The historically the best, most transformative, unique team ever was the 88 Korean national team. That team was unique. Maybe not in your division, juan, but you got to think about they had.
Speaker 3:Myung Chan, they had. Jung Myung Sam, they had. Bong Kwan, they had.
Speaker 1:Jung Kook Hyun.
Speaker 3:You got to watch First of all, if you watch it you'll go back and learn Taekwondo. How many? There's seven gold medals. Seven.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Seven, you'll go back and learn Taekwondo. In other words, what you're doing now is foot farting. Go back and watch that if you want to see Taekwondo, and I challenge people to do this, and I challenge anyone to do this?
Speaker 1:Watch the 88, watch 92, watch 2000,.
Speaker 3:Hold on watch 88, 88, 92, 2000, 2004, 2008, and then turn off your TV.
Speaker 1:No 2012, because my generation probably was the best generation across the board. We fought, we kicked, we went forward we had motion Hold on a second what you heard, what I said. You heard what I said. That's what I believe, 100%.
Speaker 2:He heard me. You're in the hollow.
Speaker 3:Should I go get Juan? Do you have your medal anywhere? It doesn't matter, it's irrelevant. Should I get my medals, I'll give you Chucky's. I think he's great I it's irrelevant.
Speaker 2:I'll give you Chuckie John. I think he's great. Let me ask I do too. Honestly, I concur, because you guys were kind of my first 2012?. Who was on that team? No, no, no, not teams. He's just talking about division. He's talking about fighters, right?
Speaker 3:Generation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wow, there were some good fighters at that time. Who I mean? Think about it? Servette was there. Oh, no.
Speaker 3:He's talking about the States, United States You're talking about.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, oh in the world, oh, no, no.
Speaker 3:No, no, you have better fighters worldwide. Definitely, definitely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, worldwide 2012. I wasn't on the USA team.
Speaker 3:So I was okay, you're okay, I did my thing, I got you. I got you for a silver or bronze. I got you silver or bronze.
Speaker 1:I fought in a pretty, if I got to say my biggest flex. My biggest flex was probably being as consistent as I was in our era of 60s, 68s. I was team.
Speaker 3:I was head of team and I was a bunch of stuff on those times and I watched you fight and you had some great fights and you fought some great fighters. So I mean your hands were full Do?
Speaker 2:you think Pani I mean, I don't know if you probably don't know her too well, young but do you think Pani Pak is a game changer, or is she just a freak? She's just a freak, she's amazing. I love her.
Speaker 1:I love her, I love her, I'm going to touch on a Servette thing since you brought it up I think what made him special and kind of I think at that point even for me I'm going to talk about me myself I think everyone else was trying to figure the electronics out and deal with the taller guys, because me and him were comparable in height he just said, I don't care, he was going to spin, he was going to go forward, he was going to go in, he was gonna go forward, he was gonna go forward, he was gonna go forward until he scored. And if he got scored in between he goes I'm gonna go forward again. And that was just. I think that was what made him tough in that division because you couldn't really control it with your front leg. If you were long, he was gonna keep going forward and spinning and changing.
Speaker 1:I think me and him had some unique fights, but he was, he was definitely one of the ones. I know that I had to. It was gonna be a fight we were going to exchange, we were going to kick um. So I think that's what made him special in that time with electronics.
Speaker 3:So so you got to get. I mean, what's funny is the person's name who hasn't come up in this conversation is, uh, patrice remark, and, like you know, you can love or hate patrice, but, patrice, you want to talk about a guy who would leg check or a guy that would kick you. This. This is a guy that you know people would leg check him and he'd break their leg, like Patrice. His body just couldn't keep up with what he was doing. Like he was a smart fighter. He was also a good fighter and I don't know that he changed that division or changed the game, because he was just a cat that came in and just could do and absorb and deliver more punishment.
Speaker 3:I mean the best story, which is actually true, cause I was in the room 1985, national championships, when they were still letting foreigners compete in that division. They looked at, they went up to the draw board cause they would post it, and I watched three or four people leave the gym, just leave the gym, not even get dressed to fight. They saw that they had Patrice. He won the French national championship undefeated without fighting. They didn't even enter to fight. That's how dominant he was as a welterweight. So you know, you can't deny that reality of what he did with the sport. He was not 100%.
Speaker 2:Let me ask you, tj, like, do you think that anybody not that I mean, is anybody? What's the word Transformative? Yeah, not that I mean, is anybody? Trends, trends, what's the word transformative? Transformative, yeah, transformative. In our sport, in our era, right now, I mean, there's some good people, like for me, rashitov is head and shoulders above everybody else in 68 if he's going up. But, um, but is anybody the only one I could think of? And I can't? Well, I mean, we mentioned CJ because he's doing something different.
Speaker 3:He can, he could, but to be honest, he's just.
Speaker 2:Not yet.
Speaker 3:He's coached poorly. He has the world's worst coaches. He's got the. He doesn't listen. He doesn't have anybody to teach him. He doesn't have anybody that's ever won anything. He's got bangers and mash trying to coach. You got bangers and mash trying to coach. You got bangers and mash trying to coach a Rolls Royce. We're talking about a kid who's a potential Rolls Royce or Bentley. And you got a Toyota.
Speaker 2:Hyundai mechanic.
Speaker 3:You do, you got, let's be. Let me be frank. The current coaching staff of USA Taekwondo are Hyundai mechanics.
Speaker 2:I'm not bringing my Audi to them.
Speaker 3:I, you know it's, I don't, I can't listen. We didn't have great coaches, necessarily, but they didn't do any damage, right they you. Just we just did our thing. We didn't need them. This is a kid if coached properly and I can give you some other guys I can I can give you Clay Barber right. Clay Barber, with the right coach, would have beat everybody in the world, james Villasada a couple more years, you know would better.
Speaker 1:I don't know, before we get too far. I don't know when you were talking about when you were talking about the teams in the US. I think that 2012 Olympic team was pretty unique having Steven and Diana, two returning Olympic medalists, on the team, plus two people that hadn't medaled that a unique mix. I don't think that's pretty.
Speaker 2:I think that's pretty like kind of um, I don't know, I think on paper it was a good team and it was funny because on paper you and page were the low ones and they were higher. But when you look, at it now it's opposite.
Speaker 2:If you look at again, based on youth, based on energy, like they were the experienced ones and you're right, young you said, like you know, c Vizio told you you wouldn't have the same intensity. Steven was not the same guy that he was. Diana was not the same that they were when they won the world championship. No offense, because they were good for a long time. I'm just saying it was a unique team but on paper they were the top two and you guys were the bottom two. If you look at it now, it's easy, but if you just think logically, it was the opposite. You guys were the young guns, you guys were the speed and the experience and the and the, the. I'm gonna go get it. I mean, that's to be, that's, uh, for me an objective. You know, uh, uh, kind of look at that. But I was gonna say simone, what about simone? From, from, so this guy he's an Italian guy.
Speaker 2:He won the Olympic gold medal. Is he going to go In a, in a, or silver In a? I'm pretty sure it was a gold medal. Anyway, he's the one that he's this giant. Six foot six, what is he? Six seven. How tall. He's giant, but he basically is giant. Six foot six, what is he? Six seven, I'll tell you. He's giant, but he basically is the guy. He didn't invent it, but he's the one that made it nasty. The ax kick when it gets caught up. Kick with the other leg. This dude hails Like.
Speaker 1:Everyone knows he's coming and this dude drops people like left and right.
Speaker 2:Now he went up to middleweight now because he's so big. So we're going to see if he can, if he's going to stay there, come down, or what he's going to do. But, um, I'm just trying to think of somebody that's I'm not talking about world championships in 74 yeah, that kid world title in negative 80 in baku.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he went off for a while, yeah, but um and then everything else. Anyway, just I was.
Speaker 2:just he's the only one that can say that it's kind of different, kind of special, not good. Obviously there's some good ones, but I don't know. I think you've got to talk about Cisse too.
Speaker 1:You've got to talk about Cisse before Even him switching to heavyweight kind of changed the game a lot in heavyweight.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Ch change the speed a lot, change the dynamics a lot you know, even for welterweight, yeah, but you know, you know who we haven't mentioned and is worth a mention is um pasqual as a heavy. Pasqual as a heavy was like in that transformative part where he was doing double kicks like he was kicking guys, double kick to the face, knocking guys out. And he was. He was a tough guy. Nice guy too.
Speaker 1:That was modibo modibo too, modibo kita. Yeah, he won two world championships for um molly. Uh, yeah, I think molly yeah like same thing. He would double triple. Not about actually keep on the face as a heavyweight yeah, full split.
Speaker 2:That's cool. That's so cool. Like you know, talk about like people again shows you how the world just changes, like nobody even mentions moldebo anymore. But that was a bad mo foe like. He was big, he was strong, he was, he was a freak, flexible. He's a good one man because I give credit, because he came out and I remember when that boy would fight people and he wanted I don't want to use my analogy, but he would just tear people up and then he went down. Remember in in the real olympics. You know he went. No real is when he won the next olympics. He went down um and just and you thought his career was over and he went up to heavyweight and he just resurrected. He just took off like a jet. Yeah, yeah, he was pretty impressive. Well, I like this conversation.
Speaker 3:I think what we should do is I know we have a lot of listeners, so we're going to I'm going to give you an email. If you guys are listening this long, cause we've been on for a minute or two send your email, best of to either coach me around on myself or um, and I'll post it on the on the website. Mine is easy to remember gold 92, g-o-l-d 92, like the year 92 at aolcom. I got it back way back when, and so send us aol baby, by the way I'm the guy still paying for it.
Speaker 3:I'm the only guy in the world still Somebody, I think I still get a bill from AOL, I think they got it. I'm like that guy in office space they put downstairs with the red stapler man. I ain't moving. But yeah, I still got AOL, and the reason I have it is because I got it way back when and you probably couldn't get it now, and so it's an obnoxious email for an obnoxious guy. But, like I said, sorry, not sorry, but send us your um comments about the show, but, more importantly, send us your best stuff. I like this idea because we forget it's been uh, for some of us who are older than some of you, it's been a while, been a minute. So we been talking about fighters you've never heard of and fighting styles you maybe not know. And I'm going to actually I'm going to make a promise to you too. I am actually going to try to watch whatever the next big Taekwondo event is, and then I will try to and I'll drink a lot of coffee.
Speaker 1:I'm going to Charlotte.
Speaker 3:I'll drink a lot of coffee. I'm not going to Charlotte and I think the Nationals what's going to be good.
Speaker 1:What's in Charlotte. I don't think it's going to be good. What's in Charlotte? No, no excitement Boring.
Speaker 3:Nobody goes to Charlotte. People that live in Charlotte don't go to Charlotte.
Speaker 1:But that's the next big one.
Speaker 2:No, but if you think, yeah, I'm just going to. The more and more I look at the selection procedures, I think, okay, you're going to whoever qualifies for there will be good in the Grand Prix, but I think you're just going to get a bunch of. I don't think you're going to get a lot of good people. You know why.
Speaker 3:When is it? When is it?
Speaker 2:It's in June.
Speaker 3:All right, I'll look at the, I'll look at, I'll look at the restaurant list list and I'll just I'll see if there are any good restaurants in charlotte. Um what, do you?
Speaker 2:what do you get there? Gumbo and crayfish. What else do you get? You get cornbread, what do you?
Speaker 3:get? What do you get in charlotte? What's the, what's the big food there?
Speaker 1:whatever you want humbuckers.
Speaker 3:What do you get, humdingers? I have no idea downtown.
Speaker 1:The downtown area here is not the worst with restaurants and stuff. We got some, like you know, kind of like mixes of um korean style food when you have your traditional restaurant. You got your like uh fusion place. This is in charlotte yeah, the stadium area is not bad. You went out and you can watch some soccer.
Speaker 3:Oh, so I might buy one of my son's teammates just got recruited by the Charlotte team, so I'd love to go see him play. His dad's a good friend.
Speaker 2:TJ's got season tickets. I had season tickets.
Speaker 3:Hold on a second.
Speaker 2:Things to do in.
Speaker 3:Charlotte.
Speaker 1:Hold on a second.
Speaker 3:I'm asking Siri.
Speaker 2:The 15.
Speaker 3:Things to do in Charlotte. Nothing what it says. Nothing must do experiences. Historical goat golf cart tour. What billy? Graham library, nascar hall of fame, carowinds discovery place it's not a golf here no, hendrix motor. What?
Speaker 2:hendrix the bank of america.
Speaker 3:What mint museum, what, okay, okay, hold on a second, let me try this for hey, things to do in san francisco oh, and the list keeps going. Oh, nice, yeah, all right, let me see. Plane ticket to Charlotte, plane ticket to New York. Hmm, yeah, okay, anyway, I'll see you. All right, boys been, it's been a great day, as always, and this has been the warehouse 15 and, as we said, if we said something, particularly, I know tj's always saying something offensive sorry, not sorry, and we are out, peace. Yeah, I think that.