Masters Alliance
9th Dan BlackBelt and Olympic Gold Medalist Herb Perez visit with the best and brightest to bring clarity to the future of Martial arts.
Masters Alliance
Old School vs New: Debating Taekwondo's Evolution
"Sorry, not sorry" might be our new theme song, but there's nothing to apologize for in this deep dive into taekwondo's evolution. Three Olympic medalists pull no punches as they debate whether modern electronic scoring has elevated the sport or stripped away its martial essence.
The conversation begins with a public service announcement warning practitioners about questionable "skip dan" certification programs promising shortcuts to higher ranks. These schemes prey on martial artists looking for recognition without putting in the necessary work – a theme that echoes throughout the episode as we examine what truly makes someone skilled in taekwondo.
When the discussion turns to coaching strategy, sparks really fly. Has the front-leg-dominant style of modern Olympic taekwondo created better athletes or just different ones? While one host laments the loss of power techniques and meaningful distance control, another points out the incredible flexibility and precision today's competitors demonstrate. The debate reaches its peak when they break down what makes a kick score-worthy – is it just touching the sensor, or should it demonstrate proper technique and potential impact?
Perhaps most fascinating is the rare glimpse into how elite competitors actually trained. Despite what audiences see in tournaments, these champions practiced a much wider range of techniques than they typically used in competition. As one medalist reveals, "If you watch a highlight tape of me, you would think I was God's gift. But I only did what I needed to do to win."
Whether you're a traditionalist yearning for the power-focused past or embracing taekwondo's electronic future, this conversation offers invaluable insights from those who've stood on Olympic podiums and witnessed the transformation firsthand. What makes a champion in any era? The answer might surprise you.
I'm Terrence run to the single thrill. I'm sorry, not sorry, ain't it funny? I repeat, on the track my sister ill Advise opinions maybe, but facts ain't lies, it's cold metal mentality.
Speaker 1:Watch the sunrise, one of one. I'm checkin' in so we're sittin' pretty. Still mean second best in the world. Get witty. Face down to Polnick's pressure cookin' hot. Gave my sweat, my focus everything.
Speaker 2:I got TJ Grimes TJ holding down the bronze Stood on the stage. I fought the giants, turned the new page, learned to discipline, respect for the fight, my fight, my life. It's too late, no vitality.
Speaker 1:We've been through hell and it's too hard In reality. Just me and you Still me stuck in me. That's gonna rock. Some of it is something down the floor. Let it To the Warehouse 15. And, as usual, there's been the pre-show banter, where we help each other get motivated, masticated and not the other M word. But welcome gentlemen. How you doing, mr Coach Moreno?
Speaker 3:I am doing good. I am here in Uzbekistan, tashkent, uzbekistan, for a couple weeks, really enjoying the country. It's a beautiful actually very beautiful country.
Speaker 2:What?
Speaker 3:part. I think it's called Tashkent, tashkent. I don't know how that's the pronunciation, but very nice place. It's warm right now, very hot here, beautiful buildings, nice people. Food has been really good, super cheap. I want to tell you guys, actually I want to tell you guys, your boy made it, your boy made it, your boy made it. Look at this $1,100, $200, $300, $400, $500. I'm a millionaire,000. I'm a millionaire baby, I'm a millionaire. Up in this joint, I spent $500,000 on dinner tonight. Man, that's all I rolled. It was actually equivalent to $38.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh. What you'll learn quickly about Uzbekistan is that when you go, they will take your money, if you give them american dollars, and change it for a certain amount of money, especially hundred dollar bills, and then when you go to pay the hotel, they want you to pay in us dollars because oh yeah, for sure, yeah, and they, because they they get a better exchange rate on it.
Speaker 1:And then tj, coach, I want to thank you for joining us from the uh the lineup and, as most of you that are watching the podcast, he, he's apparently in some police station. I see the thing how you been Coach.
Speaker 2:I'm chilling. I'm chilling. I'm actually at the gym right now. I had a couple private lesson clients this morning just hanging out now. I sat here for you. I got a shot clock behind me. I've been hearing you running off too long, so if I got to hit the shot clock behind me, I've been hearing you running off too long, so if I got to hit the shot clock on, you get one minute. And you got to get it all done. We're not going to sit here and listen to this. Here's a sign, tj. Yeah, you see that.
Speaker 3:You push the button, I'm ready, you guys.
Speaker 1:I'm ready, you can cut me off at any moment, because I usually don't have much. I don't really talk that much.
Speaker 1:I don't think I talk that much but, then again, I don't listen to myself, so I talk and don't listen to myself, which is what I suggest most people do. But it's been an amazing week. I'm glad that we're here. Well, I got a note which I found fascinating, because you know, we get these emails and I'm in California, home of sunshine and everything that's not North Carolina, and it was a weird note. It was from Kukiwan, california, which I kind of had heard existed, and then it was a cancellation, a recancellation and then a whatever of an event that's not going to happen now in San Francisco. So I started getting phone calls from all these people asking me that was a Skip Dan test or whatever right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which is weird in itself credit classes. Yeah, this, this they tried to do this in colorado a while back, and and then all these people went and spent a lot of money and they went didn't know the requirements but, more importantly, um, the ones even that knew the requirements, 70 of them didn't pass. They, they spent all this money and then then that happened in Vegas again. Why?
Speaker 1:don't they pass Because they can't do what they say they're going to do. And so these guys try to Like try, bucks, it's kind of a scam, no, no, the people that are running it tell them oh listen, you can come and we'll find you'll get skipped three dons and you can't do it. You need a certain competitive record, or you have a fifth down in karate and you come and we'll get you your fifth down in the kooky one, and so really, oh yeah For other other disciplines.
Speaker 1:No, they said that makes no sense, Dude they said show us a legitimate time in training, a legitimate whatever.
Speaker 1:And so the question it begs the question, if you're a guy who took your time, went through all this stuff, followed all the rules and you're sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, whatever it is, and then all of a sudden some you know asshat gets, he decides he's been in the wrong world and he's going to come over to the kooky one and he shows up in the room, learns a couple of forms and now he's a ninth Don in the Kukiwon, or an eighth Don or a seventh.
Speaker 3:Don, that makes a little sense. Zero, I'm not a fifth degree in Kempo.
Speaker 2:Well you know what I'm saying, but I guess when you're that high up and again this is my ignorant question when you're that high up in the Kukiwon sixth, seventh or eighth Don, what does it do for you? I, what does it do for you? I know you're part of an organization, what does it do?
Speaker 1:Well, it depends if you're Korean or you're American. So if you're Korean, it's a different world, and if you're American. In the United States there are seven men I'm not sure how many of them are still alive. That are ninth dons, and then Dr Kaepner just got his, so eight.
Speaker 2:And then I hear my friend may be testing next year. Yeah, but again, what does it do for you? It's just like a test, it's just like you just get a.
Speaker 1:You know what it's supposed to it should be. You're now in the leadership mode. You're one of a very elite group of people in the world who have achieved a ninth on. What you found here, though, is with all these little weird, kooky ones, which are run by a guy who created an organization that can't exist, because he made it up himself and has just told them all. You will now bow to me and you'll be my guys, all the guys that are running these. You've never heard of them. Like the guy in california, I never heard of this guy. I've been to a lot of tournaments. I've been around a long time.
Speaker 1:The guy that's running it is some fifth Don and doesn't know how to run a certification. He's never done a class. I never saw him. I did all the Kuki Wan. As Coach Moreno knows, I taught all the sparring seminars. When the Kuki Wan came here doing certifications, I didn't see this guy in the room. All of a sudden, now he's the Grand Master, fifth, fifth Don, who's telling people oh you come and I'll get you skipped a Don or two, and they're taking people's money, and they had a bunch of people signed up for the San Francisco one, which they then canceled. So I kind of sent a note and asked some questions, but I just alert people out there. Do yourself a favor. This is a public service announcement, not from Warehouse 15, but from me personally. Save your money, save your time. Don't waste your time with the cookie one in California.
Speaker 3:You know what it's almost like. I mean a little bit of something. Things where we talk about kind of in the US Tech 1 organization there's so much turnover and there's so much change that nobody gets comfortable with one or two things because it just changes in six months or a year or two years. Even two years is too quick. So I mean the cookie one has the same thing. I don't know enough about it, like you.
Speaker 1:Well, the president's changing in a few months and all this will change again. But you know they have the hand-me-your-dough coming up in Disney. They have the hand me your dough coming up in Disney. The hand me your dough is. Come and jump up in the air, kick a few boards, do some forms and hand me your dough and you'll become world champion of whatever.
Speaker 1:So we'll move on from that. But I would advise all of you don't hand anybody your dough, don't kooky-wan-do anybody. Save your dough and teach your students and promote them accordingly. I think it's time there's a topic for another day, but for a self realized USA Taekwondo certification. And the clock is on. I'm on the clock. I'm going to trade Saunders Sanders or whatever the hell his name is for TJ hey, what do you guys think about that, though, speaking of him?
Speaker 2:what do you guys think about that, though, speaking of him? What do you guys think about the Shador Sanders thing?
Speaker 1:That may be my son's future. Start it again. That may be my son's future, because people may love my son, but they may not love me.
Speaker 2:Nah, but you're not in the soccer world, though. You're not like a primetime soccer player mixed up in the middle. That's a little different.
Speaker 1:I think you ever hear of a guy who played basketball called Ball.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, lorenzo, yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2:But his dad played Ball a little bit, but anyways go ahead.
Speaker 3:Nah, but those kids made it, to be honest with you. So let me go with Shigeru, I mean, first of all. I mean he was a winner at Jackson State. He was a winner in Colorado. He was a good prospect.
Speaker 3:But the truth of the matter is this quarterback draft was not good. They said it was one of the worst quarterback groupings in a long time. Now, that being said, I don't think he should have been drafted so far down. But he certainly wasn't number one. I'm talking about the quarterbacks and you can make an argument for number two, three. You know being picked over him, but what he did wrong.
Speaker 3:To be honest with you, you know the NFL not fun league they call it you know they get fined for everything If you go to interviews and you got your headset on. If you go to the interviews and you aren't prepared, like a couple of GMs were like why are you not prepared for this interview? Like he didn't take it serious. And if you're an NFL GM, you're saying we're going to start our franchise with this young kid that is just talking this and that you can't draw attention to yourself at the NFL. You can't be like we're going to it's not the college stuff, tj, you know this. Nobody in the NFLfl, especially quarterbacks, pop off at the mouth and say I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this. Not even the great ones, not, not, uh, not my homes not uh brady, not uh josh allen, not lamar, uh jackson no, you don't think.
Speaker 2:There's no room for that. This, this whole world of like, uh you know, promote yourself, be you know, the promote yourself, be you know the shock factor and all that shit. You know all that stuff like that.
Speaker 3:You know why? Cause it doesn't work in the NFL it doesn't work. Nobody does that. Nobody does, nobody gives bulletin board material. So I don't think. Yeah, I know they want to say, you know, dion said this and that you know. But again, even I'm going to draft you and you're going to play on my team and then I'm going to have to know that there's a circus of frenzy media out there talking to the dad about what they should.
Speaker 3:I mean, it's just not a fun place to be. You don't build your program like that. You do the opposite. Keep everything close inside, Keep us, you know, keep everybody on track. That's professional sports. It doesn't work like that at all in any. I've never seen it in history and I don't think Shadurah Sanders is the guy to change that at all. Not even close. He's not even that. He's number five on the Cleveland Browns team. I had a conversation recently with some guys and they were like they bet me that he wasn't even going to make the roster. I thought he was going to.
Speaker 1:I think he can beat out at least two people. For sure, for sure.
Speaker 3:He could be third on the roster bro. That's crazy. That's crazy.
Speaker 2:But that's that. But I'll tell you what, though? I'll tell you what though? That's that NIL money, though it's a different I know he's already got money because of his dad and all that stuff. But when your pockets come like you already, you feel like you can act how you want.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, talk how you want, move how you want. And I mean most of these kids don't even need to go to the nfl anymore, like that don't even got to be the dream. At the end of the day they can go get eight mil in college, be great and then invest in something and get out like who knows you know you talked about.
Speaker 3:You said the ball brothers and look how, look how that backfired on. You know I'm saying they got. They got busted in the nfl. You know the kid in charlotte, he's doing okay, but the other one got injuries and people were after them. Right, they were after them to shut those boys up because of what their dad did. Imagine what these defensive guys and these, these, these, uh, defensive coordinators would be trying to do to Sanders, like pinning their ears back. I just don't think Deion did any favor.
Speaker 1:So it's a team environment. Right, and I hate to make comparisons to the most recent taekwondo version of this, but one thing I learned early on when I was competing was shut up, do your job, let others talk about you. And it was the one thing that a friend of ours, a mutual friend of ours, said. He said don't speak about yourself, let others, let others speak for you. So I I took it to like the nth degree. I didn't even film myself, I let other people film me. I watched film that other people had so that I could learn.
Speaker 1:I had this weird thing about not not, uh, bringing attention to myself other than to what I did on the floor in the arena, and I didn't speak about cause. I learned a very important lesson in 88. I didn't look future, I looked present, right now, at the moment. So when you're anybody whether you're a great, you know, and then I, you know you get a huge chain, you get this, you do the whole thing, you self-promote, and then nobody takes you on. Now the reason is get your clock ready. The reason is yeah, I'm ready. The reason is this At the end of the day, you've got to understand that you're in a team environment.
Speaker 1:Taekwondo, you can be an individual to some degree, but without your teammates you ain't making it either. But definitely in a team environment, if you're distracting from the team's mission, you're distracting from the team's focus, you're distracting from the team's whatever, then you're a detriment, not not, not a positive. You're not a positive to the team, you're a liability and not a benefit, and so, in this particular situation, I don't know enough about the player to care about him one way or the other, um, other than to say that if you're going to look for a reason, you don't need to look that far do your job, I guess I guess my thing is too, you know, so funny.
Speaker 2:I don't know if it was when he was at jackson uh, jackson state, or or when he moved over to colorado uh, the dion, but there was a big, a lot of the interview press and a lot of the Instagram feeds were him going like you will wear your pants up.
Speaker 1:You're not walking around with your pants on your waist, your headphones or your hat or your chains.
Speaker 2:He was like they not go open their pocketbooks to you with this, this, this and all this craziness, and then it's kind of like I didn't see it. I with his headphones on, not prepared for stuff which is just kind of flip-floppy. For me it doesn't make sense to me in that situation.
Speaker 3:But like I said, I think he got that money. Master President, you got to go because I know you're a soccer guy. Now you like soccer. You got to watch the Captains of the World. Have you seen it on Netflix?
Speaker 1:I did. I love that stuff.
Speaker 3:I got to watch it. Oh, it's great. I'm a number five right now. It's really really good. Well, well done. I love it. Netflix is taking over the sporting world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in another world, they're about to get UFC.
Speaker 2:I know UFC is going to be crazy.
Speaker 1:I would love to in another world, focus on soccer and helping them, because they…. No, don't, I would love to Just go ahead. They need USA Soccer.
Speaker 3:They don't need anything.
Speaker 1:Professionals don't. Usa Soccer needs a better developmental pipeline that's more concise. Instead of all the infighting Dude they have infighting between they have MLS next, then they have ENCL, then they have all these small groups.
Speaker 2:That's just opportunities, though that's just great opportunities for them to keep playing.
Speaker 3:I think they need more of them anymore they need more.
Speaker 1:they actually what they need is more content of. Instead of kids getting content from tiktok and places like this instagram, they need someone in soccer should design like peak performance has a training regimen so that kids in usa soccer could have a consistent pipeline and instead of doing whipped cream soccer like we talk about in taekwondo, the fundamentals and the foundation. So the good ones do and that's why they win, but the other ones, they're just floating around and hoping.
Speaker 3:I just think we don't get our best athletes. I mean the problem with the United States we have enough numbers at all levels, but we don't get the best athletes.
Speaker 1:We're getting better.
Speaker 3:They're getting better.
Speaker 1:They get good athletes the best athletes are baseball basketball, yeah, but you want to know something. Here's the thing. The one thing about soccer and used to be true about taekwondo is you don't need to be a particular body type. You can make your body type work in soccer, more so than anything else, with the exception of a few positions. Look at Messi he's not that big. Look at Ronaldo no, no, no, he's big. He's big, but the difference is how you manifest your skill set. So I love soccer for that reason.
Speaker 2:Don't they specialize really young, though Don't they specialize really young. They specialize really young. They start soccer camps really really young, though, don't they specialize? Really young, they specialize, really young. They start soccer camps, really, really young. That's in Europe, the rest of the world, the rest of the world.
Speaker 1:United States. The kids are in, they have a pipeline that's recreational, then they go to club, then they go to a higher level like MLS. The problem is that, yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3:No, what I'm saying is if you think about this?
Speaker 1:TJ hit the clock.
Speaker 3:Yeah go ahead In other countries. They don't have to compete against again professional basketball, baseball, football and hockey, and so the athletes gravitate towards soccer in most of those countries. It's the NBA in Europe.
Speaker 1:Fair enough, it's the NFL in Europe.
Speaker 3:So that's what I'm saying Again. Can you imagine a Deion Sanders running down the wing? It's the NBA in Europe, it's the NFL in Europe. So that's what I'm saying Again. Can you imagine a Deion Sanders running down the wing? Can you imagine a Tyreek Hill playing on the wing? The guy runs a 4-1. It would be impossible to catch him. It would be impossible. Imagine you got a center, a guy that's 6'10", being a goalie and as agile as these guys are nowadays's what I'm saying. You're just not getting like our best of our best.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we said that about taekwondo. I think that's true, but I, I. But then again, let me ask you this question then, where are those guys? Where are those guys in europe? Like, where are the germans that are six foot ten? Because they have them, and why aren't they playing soccer, soccer they, they are.
Speaker 3:A lot of them do play soccer, but now they are getting into basketball and things like that. I mean it's still. I mean you can't replace soccer with basketball in in germany, soccer is still soccer in france, it's the same.
Speaker 2:So yeah, anyway let's move on.
Speaker 3:Let's move to our sport enough football.
Speaker 2:No, you said you went. I didn't. I haven't watched many of your matches, but you said you were going to talk about the Spanish Open.
Speaker 3:Yeah, just a quick shout-out to the Spanish Open because, man, I think we had a female heavyweight, hannah Keck, that won a gold medal. We had this, the kid, the 54-kid, gun from. Is he from New York? Is he from New?
Speaker 2:York. Yeah, 54, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:He won a gold medal, victor Rodriguez got a bronze medal in lightweight and I think one other boy, another kid from New York, got a bronze. I believe I can't get his name out right now, but I just thought it was pretty nice to see some kids and some people kind of out on their own having some success internationally. And you know it's you know, I was trying to take notice of it that, um, you're seeing some people that are not from the establishment, not from the national program, that are traveling now and, um, well, they've always traveled, but people are traveling and getting results, and so I think you know, result at a Spanish open is, uh, is is pretty good. So shout out to those guys that went out there and did a good job.
Speaker 2:It was Gen 3, right.
Speaker 3:I was just going to say that it was Gen 3, and it kind of had some people saying they were smacking and it wasn't scoring and a lot of the slides and kind of grades were coming up, which was, I don't think where we want to be with that system, and I know they're going to use that system at the grand prix challenge in north carolina. So I was actually talking to someone today about, you know, are they're going to have gen 3 socks? Where can I get them? You know, I mean it's, it's crazy, it's crazy I think that
Speaker 2:don't have that crap. It's all the setup. We're going to have way champ at the olympic games. Don't worry about it, watch, watch. I'll call it now. We'll end up with with the third system at the olympic games, that's what I say I think so, watch, watch I think, so I watched them use it in asia. What I think was the asian president's cup or whatever I just watched recently was one of those, but they're using it over there. I mean it's, it's comparable, what was in the box.
Speaker 2:Oh, here we go. We can't hear it. I don't know what this is today.
Speaker 1:What's in the box? That's it. What's in the box, gentlemen?
Speaker 3:I got a question for you Because I'd like to talk, kind of give a little update on this place here. Like I said, I'm here in Uzbekistan. I got a question for you guys. Do you think about, like um? I had a conversation with the guy the other day about coaching. Like some of the he's, he's a little bit more from the old school but he has people that compete nowadays and he was saying that it's super frustrating for people like him. Um, from another generation that works with an athlete, tells the athlete listen, do this, because they're going to do this, and then this is going to work. And they do all that stuff. They get to the point they hit the chest period, clearly, and it's not rewarded. He's like here I am, I told him what to do, I told him the right thing to do, I told him how to score, they did it all and it doesn't work. He's like that era and I was kind of like I didn't have an answer for him.
Speaker 2:You know other than we just kind of move on right and I know, yeah, I don't know, I was about to say it's just take another shot situation. You know, I always tell you. I mean, you know we can. It does suck when we compare, when I compare like a generation of tech we're knowing this and electronics. I think this is the toughest game in the world because there's so many inconsistencies you just don't have. You never know what's going to score, you never know how the referee is going to react, you never know if the system is going to stay on or it's all so many things. So it's a tough game. I think the only thing you can do is the ones that tend to win. They just kind of just like you said, just go to the next shot, get to the next shot, just keep trying to put their foot on the chess card. But it's definitely frustrating, I don't.
Speaker 2:I think we spent about 60% more like free flow kicking and maybe 40% coaching. I think there's a lot of action. A lot of you know things that happen constantly, but I think the majority is the 60% where you're kicking. You know there's not really a lot of setup, or I'm just kind of trying to test your guard and test your length and test your strength and see if I can get through and see if you give a little bit and then build from there. But I think that's the answer. I don't know, I'm not sure, like trying to coach it now I go crazy. I go crazy because you never, most of the time you don't, get the response you want from the chess guards, the helmet or the referees. You know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean that's a pretty good point, young. What do you think? Do you think that the think that the I mean I know you don't pay attention too much of the guys nowadays Do you think the older coaches were more strategical than the ones now?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, the Korean coaches I had weren't? I mean, they didn't really give me a strategy.
Speaker 3:No, yeah, that's true, good point.
Speaker 1:You know like they sat in the chair and passed me my water bottle.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a good point, and then uh, you know? Oh, I think I'm not talking about the ones that we. I'm not talking about the ones that we, but I'm talking. You know, people like, people that you consider good coaches, yeah, so good coaches here and you.
Speaker 1:You make an interesting point, and then TJ finally admitted to something which is true there's no strategy left in Taekwondo, right? So there's no setup.
Speaker 2:There's no step. There's a different type of strategy. There's a. There's a pressure aspect. There's a. There's a. There's a I, I found.
Speaker 1:I found I'm going to share something with you now, because I've been waiting for this moment and I have found a videotape better not be another. Really good tequendo video, because last time you saw all these knockouts little league coaching at its finest.
Speaker 2:I remember this video, oh, this is, I think I love this video.
Speaker 3:He's like you suck, or something like that. Yeah, I'm crazy.
Speaker 2:It says click to exit full screen.
Speaker 3:Normally we can't hear it, so that's not a problem.
Speaker 2:That's a great shot, BJ Okay but yeah, no, um, he's good, but uh, I forgot what we were talking about. Now you threw me off. All right, let's go you just wasted, you know what you start from, there you start for 40 seconds.
Speaker 1:All I'm saying is all I'm saying is like you know, I you know there was one, there's a similar one about that, like in hockey, and then there's the world's worst boxing coach, which I'll share with you guys later.
Speaker 2:But I think there, but I think there's a strategy I worst boxing coach, which I'll share with you guys later, but I think there is a strategy. I think the strategy is just hidden a little differently. There's got to be some strategy. I'm just saying there has to be some strategy. Why do people win consistently? They're just the only ones that kick more. How do you explain a person that doesn't kick as much and still wins?
Speaker 1:Technically? No, no, I'm not saying there's not a strategy. If no, no, I'm not saying there's not a strategy If we play a slap hand game, there's a strategy in every game.
Speaker 2:The question is is there a strategy with regard to? I mean, you want my imitation of the strategy? Here it is. I think it's pressure and strength.
Speaker 1:I think it's pressure and strength. Hold on, hold on, okay, okay, leaning back, you're lifting your front leg. When you're watching the drills and even the drills you guys are training you're watching. I could show you 20 drills of these new guys and they're jumping on a box. They're doing drills that are not sport-specific and they're trying to increase the power of their base foot to be able to extend forward. While you're on one leg so you can do something goofy with your front leg that'll touch the chest protector and you're on one leg so you can do some something goofy with your front leg that'll touch the chest protector. And you're never going to win this argument with me, for a couple of reasons. One is taekwondo is a martial art as a martial sport. If it was going to mimic its true thing, it would be a full contact martial art and that's what you would reward, not body touches. You don't reward body touches in any other sport. That's truly a fighting sport.
Speaker 2:You can have a scoring system and they got rid of it in boxing they don't count body shots. In boxing they don't I mean like, but body shots still count against the overall score.
Speaker 1:No, if you went like this, if you went like this in boxing, ah, yeah, no.
Speaker 2:I know they got to be good punches they would look at you?
Speaker 1:No hold on. Ah ha, they got to be good punches. They would look at you. No, hold on. And now that you brought it up, I just found, which I'll share with you later, because I don't want to get you crazy on all this, but I found the guy under that. The reality is it doesn't have a strategy that's tied to the martial art itself. When you can do a back hook kick, I still challenge you to find me one player you like In the current style.
Speaker 1:I need you to find me one player you like.
Speaker 2:There's got to be one person that you're like man, this kid can fight. There's got to be one person in the entire world that you're like this guy is pretty good. It's got to be one.
Speaker 1:I need to tell you, I see a lot of talented players and I think they're what do you call it? They're not coached well and they don't expand their knowledge base, but I found the guy. This is my guy.
Speaker 3:Except full screen again.
Speaker 1:This guy could win the US team trials.
Speaker 3:I heard we can't see it.
Speaker 1:Oh, oh, you can't see it. Hold on. Let me see there are some divisions.
Speaker 2:There are some divisions in the US team trials like some are really low based and like not high level competitors to be at a team trials, but like I mean, you know, okay, here's what I'm going to say.
Speaker 3:Listen, I'm going to say, listen, I'm going to go with you. I'm going to agree with you, young, because there's a lot of people and TJ, hopefully you understand this a lot of people in this sport that teach your people how to do stuff with their front leg, and their strategy is exactly what you know. You said, young, they stand there and go like this. Those coaches are not good coaches. Their kids will get their foot on someone's face eventually. But you and I know they're not doing anything right there. If you just sit there, listen to them.
Speaker 3:Heck, I've heard some recent things where someone kind of videotapes and you hear this encouragement or information in between rounds, and it's not information that relates to how do I go get a point, and so those people have taught their people just how to kick and hold their leg up and, like you, always say, see what? Just kind of sticks. And then there's people that are like, push him back, push him back, draw him in, draw him in, let him come in. When he comes in, I want you to slide back and kick, like there's. You can hear the coach talk to the athlete of what they're trying to achieve, how they're, how they're getting to that point. But I would say most of them just have taught their people how to kick and kick a lot and they call that strategy go?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's. But that's that win now kind of strategy. I think that's the difference between, like the older, training and training. Now we were training to turn 18 years old and fight 27 year olds that could like kill us if they needed to. You know what I mean Strong, big men and and I think that's the part of it everyone's trying to win at cadet and they're trying to win at you.
Speaker 2:Not that those levels aren't important, but I think we, we emphasize on the winning part, the, the touches and and all that stuff. And then later on, I think when you start to get to the junior world level, you see that little bit of a difference change in some of those kids over there. Like those, those they're, they're a little bit more aggressive, they they understand that we talk about pressure and distance and all this stuff a little bit more, as opposed to. If this is working, it's cool, but I think I think that's the problem. I think we're just we're so focused on, you know, cadet national teams and junior national teams, and I know it's always hard to get a kid to kind of get through all the systems, but the goal was always to get to the highest point, you know so tj and and Young you can jump in on this too like because I mean, so are there coaching secrets anymore?
Speaker 3:are the coaching? Yeah, there's still.
Speaker 1:There's still coaching secrets, because and you don't have to love or hate the game right, you got to, just you got to admit the game is the game right, and so are there. Can you say to somebody, um, and, and I'll give the one thing that I I'll talk about, which is canceling you lift your leg up to cancel a kick. Is there a secret? Is there a better way or a worse way to do that? There are unique ways to do it, and then there are unique things that you can do, and then they become known because you do it in a certain way.
Speaker 2:I think there's a better way or a worse way.
Speaker 1:By the way, there might be a way that one guy has that he knows how to follow up with it in a certain way or fact. My point is, those are strategic in the sense of and here's the thing you have to, here's where you should start from, and this is why we haven't had this conversation yet. If you were going to design a game and I don't care if it's soccer, basketball or a brand new game, whatever, whatever the game is if I took this guitar pick and the guy the idea was to throw it into a cup, there would be a set of outcomes. The good is if the, if the pick makes it into the cup. The bad is if the pick doesn't make it into the cup. That's the value. So if you look at taekwondo and you say what was its original intent, the game I just told you has no value. But boxing had a value and it was to control your opponent, dominate your opponent or knock your opponent out.
Speaker 2:Those are the things that you don't think that's the same. Now, control, dominate or not, try to knock them out, not even close, not even control.
Speaker 1:I'm not even I'm not gonna even have this conversation, because not even control, though the girly, the girly little sissy, sissified stuff that I have to. I have to when I decide to even try to watch it sucks any of it. If any of these guys did this at a point in the old format, they would get killed and carried out on the street I know, but we've had this, but we've had this conversation.
Speaker 3:So now, now let's just all right.
Speaker 1:So let's just talk about, if you like, where taekwondo is, that we don't have to talk anymore about where. What I'm saying? What I'm saying is taekwondo originally, in its original intent, was taking something that was full contact and deadly, that supposedly. And mma killed that and said here's what you reward, because if this were a real situation, it would, it would matter, and that's gone away. In other words, the idea that any one particular technique, because it's not power-based, has that ability anymore, goes away. So now the goal of the game has gone away and instead of it being focused on what it should have been, which is the intent of the martial art or sport, it's focused on scoring, on scoring on this particular dynamic, which is a chest protector.
Speaker 1:How do I shape my foot? In such a way and this is the problem, and as soon as I say you'll understand it it doesn't matter whether I kick or I lift my leg in a non-kick fashion. That wouldn't have anything other than the contact happen. That's now a point and that's it. Had you gone with a slightly different system, you'd have better outcomes If you went with a pressure power system. You can't pressure power, non-technique.
Speaker 3:They did that, they tried that.
Speaker 1:It didn't work. It doesn't because they didn't have the technology, but if you did do it, the argument was oh what if he kicks him in the arm? And I'm like, if he kicks him in the arm hard enough and the arm hits the chest protector and and it can score, it can register. That should be it. And so we have have, because of cheating, conniving, nepotistic, xenophobic countries, in one country in particular that couldn't get out of its own way to not cheat or force their referees not to cheat, we now sold our soul to a game, a bad version of a video game that doesn't work. If this were a video game, nobody would play it. Nobody would play this video game. If this were the old which I used to go to the movie theater and play before the movie Karate Fighter, you at least knew when you pressed those buttons, you ducked down, you punched the guy in the groin and if you figured out how to do it back.
Speaker 2:There's no standards in anything. It doesn't matter, it is sporadic. There's no standards in anything. It doesn't matter. As long as your foot touches the chest guard, it scores, and I think that's the problem. That's not a point.
Speaker 1:It's not a taekwondo technique or point. Now I'm okay with that. So as soon as you throw out the aesthetic, that's like saying I like to listen to certain kinds of music. When I hear it, I hear harmonies, I hear this harmonies, I hear this, I hear that, and it's a great cut. And when it's not, that I can tell, hey, that's that's not good music, that that's that's terrible. Now there may come something different and I like it and I'll say, oh, I may not like it, but it's still good. I I I'm going to ask you this question. Start your clock. I'm going to ask you this question. Make sure it gets to 92. It's a good year. Well, I'm going to ask you this question is there anything that?
Speaker 1:you like, you didn't start. Is there anything that you like about this style of taekwondo?
Speaker 2:I like the round by round system.
Speaker 1:I'm talking about the art not not the, not the, not the rules um hold on hold.
Speaker 2:On hold on hold on a second what's the question this is going to be the mic drop.
Speaker 1:Get ready what's? The question so if you looked at old style taekwondo you would say I like this double kick, I like this back kick, I like this round kick. I think those are powerful, effective techniques. I like the fact that you can kick somebody and they stop being able to think they're unconscious on the floor. Can you say that there's a technique in this particular style of Taekwondo?
Speaker 2:I mean they still throw round kicks and back kicks. They still throw it. I don't, I mean, that's what I mean.
Speaker 3:I want to answer that, but let me just go back real fast, because you know you talked about they, everyone's manipulated the system to score on the techniques you know, on today's mechanism. But wasn't that the same in the 80s and 90s, when you learned how to wrap your foot to make a big noise, didn't you key up and you celebrated your technique? It's the same thing. Even if you'd kicked him in the ass, you yelled loud. So the referees had to push it so hard they assumed it was going to hit. By the time they realized it didn't hit, it was too late. So we tricked, we manipulated the system based on our attitude, based on our energy, based on where the referee thought the kick was going to go. So in a strange way, it's the same. But I also want to get back to.
Speaker 3:Sometimes we talk about the athletes and stuff, and when you say people knock people out, you're right. You did a lot of them. I saw a lot of them. I did a few of my day. But I also know there was a million people that showed up to tournaments, that were weekend warriors, that trained a couple of days a week. There was about four of you, herb. There was about four of me. There was about four of Desaul. There wasn't many, and that goes worldwide. And so when we talk about that old school, while I know people did kick harder because that's what was necessary, there wasn't many people that good at it, there was only a few countries that were good at it. What I can say about now you asked me what I like about the techniques.
Speaker 3:Now, I love how people can manipulate their leg in midair to crack somebody. When someone can drop their foot on their face, like seemingly in a space that's this tight, from this range, is mind-boggling, because when we fought, everything was so long and so far and so extended. Very rarely did you fight in middle distance. You couldn't. The right I mean, it wasn't, it was frowned upon you. You couldn't give up that space. You couldn't give up that chance of somebody tagging you and rolling out.
Speaker 3:I I think there's a lot to like. I love the endurance of these, these athletes. They have to move every three seconds, they have to engage every three seconds, that's, and the clock stops every time there's a clinch, every time there's a fall. So you fight a real two minutes. I know our days in the championship level was three minutes, but that was a running clock and there was a lot of standing, a lot of holding, a lot of grabbing. So I'm old school, so I'm not going to bag it and trash it, but I'm also not going to say that it was great and this is horrible. Just like you said, tj, there is a bunch of crappy stuff. I see a lot of crappy coaches teaching crappy stuff and getting away for it.
Speaker 2:Do you teach crappy? Stuff in your gym, do you?
Speaker 3:teach crappy stuff, I will say no.
Speaker 2:Exactly For me it goes back to the coaching. It goes back to what's instilled in the, in the athletes from a young age. And I'm not saying I don't care who's good and who's bad, but I think that's where it starts. I don't think you, I don't think I go. I mean, personally, I'm not going. Okay, we're going to flick our foot this way.
Speaker 2:Base of building is still the same, I think it's. You encourage them to have motion and movement. You encourage them to engage, you encourage them to follow up, you encourage them to keep the space. Now more so, it cancels and cuts as opposed to big, heavy round kicks and spinning. But you're still encouraging them to like, push the fight. Well, at least that's what I, that's my version of the game. I'm encouraging to push the match so that we can do some old school stuff and some heavier shots and get through. And I think if you watch the matches from getting to end at the highest level, you watch that breakdown from round one to round two and maybe even round three. Now, all of a sudden, this guy is getting his back flag underneath. Because he knows this guy's distance, he knows he has him standing still. He can get to the top side, throw something big, hit the big spins. This thing is a progression. Still, it looks weird, it can be weird, but I think it's a progression and the goal is still the same.
Speaker 3:Guys, I'm here watching these kids train right now and, herb, you would think it was Korea, you would think it was. I mean, they're doing stuff like back leg round, kick back leg round, kick punch punch. Back leg round, kick back leg round, kick punch punch. Like back leg, run, back leg run. Pot of chuggy, pot of chuggy. Off the line, off the line. Pot of chuggy. Pot of chuggy. They're doing skip, cut, kick, draw back up up pot of chuggy. Switch your stance. Who's this?
Speaker 2:but that's, we had some bad. We had some good family girls, so they were strong this is, uh, who is?
Speaker 3:I don't even know who. Thailand and Korea.
Speaker 2:Is it playing or is it skipping? That was a good axe kick. It's not loading. Look at the stepping, the stepping is beautiful this is amazing. We can't see it. You can't see it, we got to get our video feedback going, because it's just choppy on my screen, is it?
Speaker 1:No, that's actually what it looks like. It's not choppy.
Speaker 3:No, but you should see these, and I'm here with my Brazil guys.
Speaker 1:Okay, here's Korea versus somebody.
Speaker 2:Tyler no, he switched. Oh, same, same same.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's just choppy yeah, you can't see it, it's just we should, we should do one.
Speaker 2:We should do one uh one podcast where we actually figure out how to like make the videos run smooth. We can watch a few, we'll do it we'll do it on.
Speaker 1:We'll do it on uh, we'll do it at some point, but the uh, the point is, you know like and this is like not to say anything other than to say what- it's saying is watch the tape and don't watch the kicks, just look at the floor, look at the legs and the motion of the feet and see what you see.
Speaker 1:And this again I learned from somebody else. He said if you watch, there's a friend of ours, mutual friend of ours, and it was the one best advice. He says everybody watches Taekwondo for the kicks, watch it for the motion on the floor, watch it from, watch it for the motion on the floor, watch it from, watch it for the stepping and the setup, of which there's none, and and in this particular style of taekwondo. So you got to just understand. You can do whatever you want, right, but there's an aesthetic to everything and the aesthetic is what makes it valuable. So if you watch basketball, basketball's aesthetic has continued to rise to such a degree now that when you watch it Sorry, it's trash.
Speaker 3:Now, what are you talking about? It's trash, bad example.
Speaker 1:It's better than 1950.
Speaker 3:Not better than the 90s, maybe not, or 2000s. It's horrible. Maybe I don't know. A playoff team just won yesterday. They beat the Lakers. They shot seven for 47. Seven from 47. They shot 47 times. They made seven three-pointers. The worst in NBA history History and they won the game.
Speaker 1:What was the purpose of the three-point shot originally? Do you know?
Speaker 3:To get three points.
Speaker 1:What did it prevent?
Speaker 3:Well, I don't know what it prevented they it was it was risk and reward.
Speaker 1:In other words, when you take a higher risk, it forced people to. They knew that if they let the guy out there at the three point line, he was going to get three points. He's going to get 50 more for a field goal than if he were just going under the basket and laying it up right and forcing his way in. So every game has its detriment, right, and they try to control the game through the way they punish and they reward.
Speaker 3:And now everyone's shooting.
Speaker 1:three pointers that's the problem, right, exactly, they'll touch us to the head.
Speaker 3:We're just trying to touch the head anymore.
Speaker 1:And that's why I like to watch high level soccer. So I watch high level soccer because then you see the passing and what they do to set up and the understanding of spatial dynamics. It's fascinating to watch. So there are different sports, for different reasons, that accelerate their technical curve, and then they try to continually revisit what is going to make it more exciting. I don't think you can say, and I challenge you to say, that taekwondo's technical curve has been accelerated or increased. I think what you would probably say is it's been diminished, it hasn't been increased, and that's not really hard to prove. I'm not, I don't want to talk about, but what I will say is you got to decide what the aesthetic is and if the if you're happy with this, if you're happy with what you're seeing now, then we don't have to talk anymore about it.
Speaker 2:If you're not happy, it's not like for me. I guess I watch a lot in comparison, so it's not all of it. I understand what you're saying, but I just think you're right. At the higher levels is I don't know, but it's bad there may be a guy that can win.
Speaker 1:In other words, my point is there I'm waiting for the guy who's who's? Who's jesus? I'm waiting for jesus to show up and show us how to fish. And I thought it was going to be Aaron Cook, to be honest, because when Aaron Cook was in that transitionary period, he wasn't.
Speaker 1:Stephen Lopez Lopez was an interlocker. He didn't have any interest in accelerating the game, he had an interest in prolonging his legacy, which is okay. But a guy like Aaron Cook liked taekwondo, for taekwondo and did taekwondo and he switched and he did this and he tried to make he just didn't have the intellectual tool set not a dig one way or the other to understand how to make his style of taekwondo work against the current style that was starting to become in the forefront. And that's not a dig on Aaron, that's a dig on the coach. Whoever his coach was couldn't sit back and say, okay, maybe let's try this or let's try that or let's try that. And I'm not saying that I could, because if you two can't figure it out, I don't think I can either. Like, I have this little fantasy of what I would do.
Speaker 1:Somebody tried to cancel my kick. Good luck, right, you good luck. Right, you do it once and you wouldn't be able to cancel anymore, you wouldn't be able to walk anymore and I'll take the minus point. By the way, or the other guy gets the point. I could care less, but that's a fantasy, I'm not in the ring, and so, with you guys, if you can't figure out how to develop a player who is going to change the framework of what we do and how it's done, then we're in trouble and the sport's in trouble, because that's no longer a rule, that's no longer a me problem, that's a rule problem that doesn't allow for technical innovation, and that's, I think that's. That goes back to the scoring system.
Speaker 3:You know how, like in the old days, like basketball, like a center, he would go in the paint, right, he posts up, give me the ball, dribble, he would turn. Everything was close. Right Now, evolution, these guys, these seven footers, can go out on three-point line and dribble. They drill the ball up, they pull up from half court, they can shoot. So it's funny, like you know. You say that, like I think to myself okay, juan, yeah, can you make a person that does all the old school steps and do that stuff? Okay, even if you did, they would still have to know how to use the front leg. I think Korea is getting really good at that.
Speaker 3:I'm fascinated by these guys. Right now, I've written down every training. I'm taking little video clips of everyone. I'm just fascinated because all I see is old school taekwondo. Hopefully I can have a meeting with the coach on Saturday. I want to know where they learn how to do all this stuff, because I'm watching a practice. It's back leg, it's fast kicks, it's draw up, it's two roundhouse kicks and you know, tj, they get into clinch and they can twist kick, but I haven't seen it in practice. I don't know where they get it from and you know as well as I do TJ, the Uzbekistan girls. They don't fight. They're doing all these drills just like we do, but when they fight, they're like oh, their legs are snakes.
Speaker 1:But you and I did that. So you trained with me long enough to know that if you watch me in training, if you watch me fighting, you would think the only thing I did was left leg round kick and check, or back kick and back hook kick. Those were the three kicks you would think I could do. But if you ever watch me in training, which you had, I can double kick. I could fast double. I can not.
Speaker 3:So why did you do that? Why did you do that?
Speaker 1:I did what the referees needed to see for me to win, and I only did. By the way, that's why I don't blame the fighters. You don't hear me blaming fighters. I'm blaming the system because I only did what I needed to do to win. So if you watch a highlight tape of me, you would think I was God's gift, or whatever. You watch me, you'll watch a full match of mine. You go get a coffee and come back because I did just enough to win and I did exactly what I just told you Round, kick, check, round, kick back, kick back, hook kick. The rest of it I didn't need to do.
Speaker 3:Maybe that's the point. Maybe that's the point, because that's what I see. I can see all these kids can do all this stuff, but because the system you fought against the referees, we're fighting against the system, and so they're doing just what they need to do and once in a while they'll get out of box and they'll do something a little crazy, or you know, some double kick or something. But I'm seeing good taekwondo but think about yourself.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to give you a challenge now, because I'll talk about your performance in 88, which I think you won. I'll talk about your performance in the later years and then I'll talk about your last performance as an Olympian and what I would say, and I'll ask you what do you think, what do you think the difference was between your 92 performance and your last performance, 2000?
Speaker 3:92 and 2000? Well, 92 wasn't I mean? If you ask me to be honest, I think I got progressively worse. In a sense, I said when I was young I was this monster that could kill the world. 92, I was experienced and I was trying to be perfect. In 2000, you?
Speaker 1:got culture, you got, you got. You got educated and culturized and the juan moreno that was juan moreno in 92, had you continued on that path and been an outlier and been a visionary and you took it and kept evolving, that style and, by the way, what you what you say, which is true learned what you needed to learn to stay current. You would have been unbeatable because of your size, your body type, you know absolutely. You tried, unfortunately, the coaches you had tried to get you to do too much taekwondo, like they like to do taekwondo, as opposed to the taekwondo that you listen. You were. I don't want to compare you to arlene lemus because that's not a fair comparison to the either of you for different reasons you were, though.
Speaker 1:You were the arlene lemus of that division, meaning that you went in with something that people didn't expect you to be able to do. You didn't do a traditional cut kick, you did a very long, extended. You were ahead of your time, because if you were fighting now, you had that length and that flexibility off your bottom foot. If you had kept that part of your game, as opposed to trying to become better at taekwondo, whatever your success would have been different. You had great success. Nobody can. It wasn't a bronze medal. Whatever your success would have been different. Not, you had great success. Nobody can. You know it wasn't a bronze medal, it was a, it was a silver medal, and so it could and I'm just teasing you, tj, I'm just. You know I love you, love you you thought I was about to cry you know, ever since I saw you in that.
Speaker 1:But anyway, the point being, oh so don't put my telephone number up there. You heard our new theme song, right? Sorry, not Sorry. Yeah, I heard it, dude, it's nice, I heard it All right. But anyway, the reason I say that is we can all second guess, oh, if I had done this, if I had only done this differently. The good news for me was I lost in 88. And when I lost in 88, it gave me four more years to refocus on me and what I needed to do in my way to win. I didn't try to become a better Korean style fighter, I just tried to become a better me fighter. And so that kind of worked out for me, just because of the nature of my weight division. Your weight division was different and each of us had our own challenges in our weight divisions, and I would never want to fight in either of your weight divisions because the amount of talent in those divisions was ridiculous.
Speaker 3:Six days to kill their division. That's the hardest division, ridiculous, and that Cervak guy.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't want to fight that maniac. No way I would want to fight him. He was just and, by the way, I'm lucky I was a middleweight. I wouldn't want to fight a welter. Welters were, you know, by and far and large, the best out of the heavier half of the divisions, I'd go with welter.
Speaker 2:Lightweight.
Speaker 1:I'd go with welter. They had power and speed In the lower divisions, you know.
Speaker 2:know, I leave that to you guys because 68 yeah yeah, well, I mean like with the whole, the whole game and the whole style and the whole scoring system. I think that's the one thing we talk about the when you have when it's a tall guy, short guy, middle of the ground guy. But I think you could have your own style back then. Like you said, you did round, kick back leg and backspin hook, like that would be good enough back then because you knew how to control. That was your style. Maybe the other guy was like man, I can go this, this and this, and you guys just had your battles. That's why some matches were tougher than others.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you a question. You said something which is interesting, because now you went back to technique, but I'm going to tell you it wasn't the technique that let me win, or him or you. What is the most important thing in old style taekwondo? What? What is the maybe even a new style? If you're talking to a taekwondo fighter, what is the most important aspect that you need to control?
Speaker 2:if you want to win, what is your ability not to get hit?
Speaker 1:distance, like back then, for me it was distance, yeah, distance not to get hit, yeah, you didn't. So if you look, and that's why I tell you, watch the stepping in the foot.
Speaker 2:But that's the part that you don't like now. You don't like the fact that I could stand real close and kind of take a lot of damage and nothing goes up, and then I can just poke you in the eye and score three. I think that's the problem. Now we're not, they're not so forced to move back. We can just guard and try to keep it off of our body. What is he doing? He do it. He looks like he's doing yoga. He's not a kid of a doer. That's the difference, though I'm not in love with that part either.
Speaker 2:Before it was the distance control and knowing how close you were and how far you were, then fix it.
Speaker 1:You're not in love with it, then fix it.
Speaker 2:By the way, I loved old style taekwondo A lot of old school stuff and a lot of sharp kickingondo. I use a lot of old-school stuff and a lot of sharp kicking stuff. I focus on a lot of those things. I think that's the way the game is going.
Speaker 1:Here's the truth. You want the truth and I'm going to tell you the truth now. Had taekwondo been what it is now, I wouldn't do it. I would go do jiu-jitsu or something else. I wouldn't do taekwondo If this was where I was headed and I said, oh, this is where we're going yeah, but you wouldn't have known, you wouldn't have known, you wouldn't have known.
Speaker 3:What do? You mean, I don't believe that.
Speaker 1:I don't do ballet.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but if you saw this at the beginning, I mean little kids, don't walk into this and go. Oh my gosh, I'll never do that.
Speaker 2:You didn't have to go through the generation of going through your normal taekwondo and then actually switching over to electronics, like that's the craziest part right there, going from all that stuff you're talking about. I'm talking about today, though.
Speaker 1:If I walked into a taekwondo gym right now and I watched these guys. I watched Via's team practice. If I watched that, I wouldn't do taekwondo, I'd go do jiu-jitsu or karate.
Speaker 3:But it's only because of what you know, but it's only because of what you know. If you're just a regular dad, they come in and they love it. They're like wait a minute, I'm telling you. We fight all the time and people always ask can we fight more in electronics? Because you can see who wins, you can see what's rewarded and what's not rewarded, and that's appealing to moms, dads and kids.
Speaker 1:Fair enough.
Speaker 3:It's real. I mean, again, I feel bad when I make all these points because I agree in the core of me, I agree with you. I think, dj, you do too. Wait. There is a lot of crappy stuff. There is a lot of weird bastardization of of taekwondo. I don't like it, I don't agree with it, but I I'm. But at the same time I think these athletes are are freaking crazy good right now. I mean the flexibility. You have to be flexible, you you have to be technical. You have to kick the front leg and back leg. You have to be able to block you have to be able to you know, and kick in a short distance Again.
Speaker 3:A couple of years ago you could just play long distance. You can't live like that. That's how fast it changed. It's like MMA, you know. At one point everyone took everyone down, then there was defense control, then it was all boxing. People started learning how to kick the legs. All this stuff is new in this sport, but it's becoming a complete MMA. And Taekwondo, I think, is becoming more complete with this system Not more complete than what you guys did and what I did, more complete on this system, because you cannot live on just flexibility and front leg anymore. It's impossible.
Speaker 3:There's no one that can do it, it's been a while and I think that's why when I watch these guys kick like old school like I was I was going to say it's no bagging that we brought a really good group here. We got seven to eight people here that are really good. But when you watch their Taekwondo, compared to these kids, the way those, these kids, the way these kids' roundhouse kick, the way their stepping is, you see our kids manipulating things and doing well.
Speaker 1:So let me ask you another question, then, because that's? I've been studying Buddhism, as you know, and my Buddhist teacher was a taekwondo guy I'm talking about. You got to figure out who am I and what is this. So here is the start, your clock, here is the uh, I got 14 seconds left.
Speaker 2:I'm saving you. Yeah, here the episode ends when it gets to zero.
Speaker 1:Hold on, hold on, hold on so let me, let me ask you a question. So if you were to take, take a match now, just understand what I'm about to say. Once you get ready, set it up referees now that are skilled in this, watching the game because they don't score anymore, right, they they, they, the referees like the electronic went up, so now they're watching the game. They just give warnings, right, which is kind of good, because not the brightest punch to start the. You take those referees and you say sorry, kp and P, j, g, a and J K, poo and poo are out today. We need you to score it and, uh, we want you to score the match Now. Do you get the same result?
Speaker 1:Referee, now, another understand, the referee understands what what a lizard kick is, what a scorpion kick is, whatever, and how is the outcome different? If a referee scores the match and the electronics score the match, is the outcome different? I don't know.
Speaker 3:And if the answer is yes it is Okay so that's different, because they won't score those cut kicks right, they won't cut them.
Speaker 1:They won't score the cut kick.
Speaker 3:They won't score the cut.
Speaker 2:kick these referees, these referees only know this. I don't think they would these referees only they would yell and scream and the mom in the stands and they would press the button for sure, but all those middle ones that score, that you don't really know score. You know what I'm saying yeah, yeah, I think that twist, kick, they would score.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know what's funny. I'll change this up real fast. How many referees, tj, do you think? What I don't understand is when there's a spin and the point goes off and referees forget to get to push the button. I'm like number one, that's your job. As soon as someone spins, you push. It's not up to you. As soon as you see them spin, you push, you push, you push. Head, push, push, push. That's the only decision you got to make. Is the body or face right? Actually, no, not even, because two points is two points Extra. I just don't get how to your point, how?
Speaker 2:do you?
Speaker 3:miss that um? How do you miss they're?
Speaker 1:asleep, they're asleep, they're asleep. But you know the referees aren't trained well. And then you know you guys are aware of the effort we try to do with the refs. So when we, when we were doing the coaching program which usa taekwondo can say thank you and send me a check, and the athlete program, thank you, send me a check the referees they were next in line. And when we did their thing and we wanted them to sit down and score the match with controllers that would record and we could then go through and educate them to say why did you score that as a point? What was?
Speaker 3:your thought process. We got pushback when they didn't want, they didn't want it and they didn't want to be held accountable.
Speaker 1:then at the world championships, dr capner, myself and, by way, listen to the list, capner, me, pasqual Hadi. This is the level of international competitors.
Speaker 2:That is sitting at the table.
Speaker 1:Yep, we're sitting at the table and if there was a protest, it came back to us. We video reviewed, we overturned 70% of those decisions. That was the last time we overturned 70% of those decisions. That was the last time we were done, because the refs were threatened. They were like guys who actually did the sport and the differences, but that's who should be the best referees.
Speaker 2:That's who should be leading the referees, but here's judo, that's obvious.
Speaker 1:You don't get to judge the Olympics in judo unless you've risen to a level where you made it to the quarterfinals or semifinals or some level in judo. How many?
Speaker 3:athletes, how many athletes, how many athletes actually want to referee?
Speaker 1:they're all trying to coach I don't, I don't want to referee either, but I and my point is but train them, train them. If you, I don't know soccer and I and I and I always say this.
Speaker 1:So when I talk to people about soccer, I can't say but I'll tell you something I'm educating myself to a point where I do know soccer, where if I were to referee which I would never do a soccer game I understand the rules to tactics and strategy in order to be a good referee. If you're going to referee fighting, you have to understand anticipation. So when I'm watching you kick, if I'm scoring the match, I've got to be able to understand that you're going to round kick it and Dr Capeman talks about this all the time. I know that if you're round kicking the stomach, there are some potentials. That got to happen and my hand had to be ready to know what was coming, what the potential was and whether it worked. Then I'm going to be within the window to score. If I don't understand how the game works or the strategy, I can't possibly referee it because I don't know what I'm looking for and when it happens it's too late by the time I make that decision. The crazy part, the crazy part.
Speaker 3:The only one that needs to do what you're saying yeah, is a center referee, because the other ones their job is just to push it. You know they don't. Like you said, they can go to sleep.
Speaker 1:Turning or punching right. How does punching score? How does punching score now?
Speaker 3:It's scored by referees.
Speaker 1:The referees. They have something to do, but, by the way, it's hard.
Speaker 3:No, they're trying to take it away. They got a glove because they don't think the referees are scoring correctly. But you know what's funny? The referees, I would say, and I'll debate with them, bring them on. I would bet that a high percentage I'm going to say 90% of them do not understand the strategy of what coaches are doing. They're just trying to inflict the rules, the word is inflict.
Speaker 2:That's the problem.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I liked his choice of words. That's a Freudian slip. He wanted to say enforce. He said inflict.
Speaker 1:And inflict is because they're trying. They're only. They have nothing to do except punish. And this is where the problem. By the way, this comes from Korean culture. It's been a culture of punishment for a long time, not reward. They were beating people's feet, doing all sorts of weirdness, and so when you understand that their thing is like oh, if you don't want somebody to do something, hit them with a stick. It never occurred to them.
Speaker 1:Like the nba, you want to see more long distance shooting, reward it, give it an extra. You want to see less of something? Then you punish it or you reward the contrary, so that if you want to see faster times on the track, reward faster times. You don't punish slower times. You say, oh, you didn't make it across the line in five seconds. You get 20 points less. No, you say, hey, go across the point faster, you win.
Speaker 1:And it's just kind of a dumb way for me to say it, but it's not untrue. And that's why, if you go to a referee seminar back in the day, I don't know what they even have them for anymore. It was a book of 40 to 50 to 60 warnings and you spent time learning how to properly go, and now you spent most of your time doing a proper uh abuse, as opposed to sitting him in a room which we did and say, by the way, this is what a point looks like. I know you don't understand this, but let's get the coaches and the athletes in the room so we can all agree what a point is, which was our point, and now we all know what we're aiming for. Instead, you go and then the guy goes what you go? Shut up, you cannot talk to me. I am the referee, I am in charge. I punch you in the chest, go back, sit in your seat, don't ask me any questions. You don't.
Speaker 1:You don't get any knowledge it's secret, it's hold on, it's secret and no one can know it except us, because we are royal and high and we are higher than you and I'm laughing because half the referees that reffed me, they were lower degrees than me, obviously lower competitors than me, and they're going to try to tell me what a point is. Have a seat, let me help you understand what a point is, and then maybe you'll have a chance at judging a match fairly, so a guy like me, guy like me or you guys, we can actually have fun in the ring instead.
Speaker 1:You're trying to. Yeah, but leon preston's different last thing I'll say start your clock, leon preston. He said something which makes sense. He says the job of the referee is to make certain that you don't destroy the beauty of the game. And I go fair enough, if I'm doing stuff to frustrate the beauty of the game, I have five seconds, four, three. Then I'm at fault. Done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the referees have too many rules to inflict, but I say it to enforce and then I think they choose to inflict them way too often. I miss the referees that just would have a conversation with you. You know what I mean. Like stand up, stop grabbing, because they know it's a part of the game and the goal is to figure out how much is it affecting the game. Everybody's pushing, everybody's grabbing, and you kind of could deal with that. All right, he sees me grabbing. I got to do a little bit less. You know, you kind of can work with it.
Speaker 2:But now, like he was and maybe I thought it was three but it was actually two Like we're just we're calling stuff that shouldn't matter and that's because we got too smart. We could hold at one point, we could hold our leg in the air the whole time. You know we went from that to now it had to be three seconds and now it's three pumps and I mean we just keep changing it so it keeps it. I guess I don't even know the word is fair. I don't referee anymore. They just, like you said, inflict calm, johns, and you know, watch you fall and tell you to stand up, like that's the one that drives me nuts to stand up if I'm injured, like again.
Speaker 2:I know some people fake and, you know, do the whole little acting thing, but some of it just makes no sense at all. But that's the issue. But you're absolutely right, I don't think. I don't think that you don't have to be a fighter to to referee this game anymore. You don't have to understand it. You have to understand. You should be at least understanding one, two, what three pumps look like. You should understand what it looks like when someone shin blocks without actually trying to stop the kick and follow through. I mean, there's little stuff like that that you should understand.
Speaker 3:I think half the time they don't understand that and everyone's calling it so differently and I know it's like and everyone's calling it so differently and I know it's like. I have a friend that runs an organization, the referee organization, and I know it's a hard time but he has a hard time sometimes but it's funny because you want to get these young referees right. But that means these young referees have little martial art experience, little sport experience and definitely little competition experience. And now they're sitting in national championships and team trials and, and above and beyond, I was at a tournament in Miami where I saw this lady refereeing like little kids and everybody was talking about how atrocious she was and I was just kind of like I feel kind of bad, I would kid you not.
Speaker 3:10 days later I saw a refereeing at the Pan Am championships. I was like I thought I Am championships. I was like I thought I saw something. I was like what that? They were just in Miami coaching or refereeing like green belts and they were at the Pan American championships. I was just, I was shocked, I couldn't believe it. So that's the point yeah.
Speaker 1:Well it's a thankless job, right? I mean I, yeah, well, it's a thankless job, right? I mean I it is. I, I don't, I've tried, I didn't, I've never won, I'd never want to referee. Every once in a while somebody will grab me because I'm around and they put me in a chair and I, I don't want to referee kids because I hate disappointing a kid and then sometimes they don't do anything that's worthy of a point. So how do you determine a winner? And I don't want to be that guy, you know. And then when I was, when I was five olympic gold medalist this is why I don't do taekwondo anymore but you know, I don't want to be that guy either, right, but on the other side, then we shouldn't complain, right? If you're not going to ref, you know, then you know. If you're not going to fix it, then whatever. But refs listen, it's a hard job six, seven, eight hours.
Speaker 1:We shouldn't complain about referees I no no, I'm saying there's a good joke about lawyers. They say what do you call a hundred lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?
Speaker 3:Hey, hey, hey, my daughter's about to be a lawyer.
Speaker 1:All right. What do you call a hundred lawyers at the bottom of the ocean? A good start, good start. Same thing with referees. What do you call referees? And the question is when they're willing to get educated. I'm willing to help, so when they're ready to change? The system which we tried to do in the past. We tried to make better referees because you can make them better and, um, you guys talking about that refereeing, I was watching this tape that comes up on my feed you have to pay them.
Speaker 2:No, you gotta pay them more for them to invest the time to get better. They got to be paid, like maybe you want to teach them, but you got. I mean you got to give them a reason. They have to have a reason to learn. That's an organization.
Speaker 1:I don't disagree. That's an organizational challenge and I think it should be part of the tournament expense. On the other, on the other side of it, you should. They should be held accountable if they do. If they're not doing it right, they should be educated. They should be sidelined till they get it right and then, when they get it right, they get to come back. If they're caught cheating, they should be banned, and if they're caught cheating twice they should be banned for life, like any other sport.
Speaker 3:And that's just the real thing, I said it forever the WT for the Grand Prixs, the World Championships. They should have a professional referee corps where they pay these people X amount of dollars. I'm sorry, bite the bullet, Pay these guys and then you apply what the standards?
Speaker 2:Don't they pay the demo team?
Speaker 1:A lot, don't they pay for Jay and Steve's plane tickets?
Speaker 2:I mean, you probably don't know, but how much do an international referee make? Do they make?
Speaker 1:money. They get a per diem. If you're going on an international referee, they don't get paid plane tickets, but they may get a per diem. Nope, no plane tickets.
Speaker 3:No plane tickets.
Speaker 1:They can get their own way, so like the world championships.
Speaker 3:No plane tickets A lot. Sometimes some federations will pay for their referees because it's like one or two, but I think the United States doesn't. I'm not sure on that, but I was talking to one guy and he said that WT notifies them so close than when the plane takes them. It's so expensive. They don't do it right now for Worlds. You could be like, oh, let me get my ticket. They'll let them know a month before or something three or four weeks before.
Speaker 1:But yeah, they just get it per diem, it's food. Yeah, per diem, that's just food and money.
Speaker 2:Is it a big for DM though Like? Is it like a big for DM Like the U S? The U S referees.
Speaker 1:At one point we get about 35 to 50 bucks.
Speaker 2:And then the international referees a day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which isn't you know? That's not even dinner.
Speaker 3:I think they get like maybe a hundred, a hundred they get a hundred, 150 now. I think so, but international. We're all playing tickets though.
Speaker 1:Well, as usual, we've gone long, but we have solved no problems today. But we've certainly created more problems, but at least I finally got you guys to agree that the current state of Taekwondo sucks and the format sucks and the rules suck, and there's no new technique that's been developed that has any value. The only thing that gets hurt in current Taekwondo car.
Speaker 2:You ever been twist kicked in the bottom lip? You ever been twist kicked in the bottom lip?
Speaker 1:if I ever. Can I tell you something if I were ever to be twist, kicked it anywhere on my body, I would give up the sport and take up knitting.
Speaker 2:So if you allow yourself, front leg, flop you before you spin you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would right you could I will tell you this you and I can fight the next time we met. And you lift your leg to try to cancel me and I'll show you what happens next. So try to cancel my kick, Because I'm only kicking with power to the bottom of your leg.
Speaker 3:Move around for about 35 seconds and here we are.
Speaker 1:Oh, no, no, I'll be tired. No, no, I'm not lying, I'm 65. I get tired thinking now. So you know it's I'm old man. But, as always, if you've been offended by anything that was said in this podcast, you can text juan moreno at or tj at, and. But for me, not sorry, sorry, not sorry, our new theme song. I want to thank my host and host and hostess with the mostest, and recently up against the wall in his new dojang there. I like the color scheme white on white on white on white. It's a beautiful place.
Speaker 1:I like the other you know, and then today again we're going to have that GoFundMe continue. And TJ is. He needs an extension cord. He hasn't heard of an extension cord. He's in the corner of his gym because that's where the outlet is.
Speaker 1:So he does a tour with the real estate agent and he goes oh, this is a nice space, yeah, look how beautiful it is. And he goes where's the outlet? The guy goes it's all the way back by the garage door. He goes okay, maybe I'll put my desk here and when people sign up I'm gonna sign them up by the garage door where?
Speaker 3:yeah, where's your computer?
Speaker 2:it's like if they're bad, we just kick them off the ledge and we keep there's no, but there's no more outlets anywhere in that gym there's on the other side where all the treadmills and stuff are. But like I don't know, this made most sense. This heavy box was here, so I kept it here. I don't know what to tell you, I'll wait for you to send me an extension cord, though you're down to six seconds, five seconds. Close it off so we can go.
Speaker 1:All right, we're out thank you, that's been the warehouse later all right, gentlemen.