Masters Alliance
9th Dan BlackBelt and Olympic Gold Medalist Herb Perez visit with the best and brightest to bring clarity to the future of Martial arts.
Masters Alliance
From Captain Controversies to Equipment Chaos: A Raw Taekwondo Conversation
Three Olympic Taekwondo veterans discuss the controversial Gen 3 chest protector technology causing scoring chaos ahead of the World Championships, while examining how officiating decisions are negatively impacting the sport's strategic diversity.
• Gen 3 chest protectors showing serious malfunctions at the President's Cup with random point registrations
• American athletes disadvantaged by training on outdated systems while international events use newer technology
• Referees increasingly eager to issue deductions rather than allowing fighters to develop their natural styles
• Rules have eliminated strategic diversity by penalizing defensive tactics that should be respected as legitimate approaches
• Team culture deterioration has created an "us versus them" mentality between the national organization and independent athletes
• Historical team captain selection based on seniority and accomplishment has been replaced by organizational control
• Upcoming Grand Prix Challenge training camp aims to foster collaboration between athletes from various backgrounds
Our goal with the camp is to bring athletes together for growth and development, not to compete against each other but to learn from one another. It's completely free because we believe in giving back to the sport whenever possible.
The Warehouse 15, and I am joined by my brothers in arms, olymp, true Olympians, have done the dance at the highest level. Coach, coach TJ, you're going to go first today. How are you, sir?
Speaker 1:How are you Just chilling, hanging out?
Speaker 2:Well, I heard you had a momentous visit and you visited with one of our illustrious, very well-decorated team captains from the past and one of our most famous, infamous women in our sport. But we'll get to that. Coach Moreno, how are you today?
Speaker 3:I'm good. I'm good. I'm just here. I'm like peeling like a lizard because I was doing some crazy yard work this week. Got all fried, first burnt of the season, but I'm doing good. I'm actually going out to Fresno, california, tomorrow, kind of in your neck of woods sort of.
Speaker 2:kind of sort of to be careful be careful out in Fresno, because Fresno is a well-known Haven for migrant workers and I don't want you to get caught up in that rushing and end up on a plane in.
Speaker 1:El Salvador, which I was waiting for. It I was waiting for it.
Speaker 3:Since you said yard work, I was waiting for it. Let me be clear. I'm like there's no way he's letting this one go. Hold on.
Speaker 2:His neck is peeling. He said the word yard work and he should just be happening to be walking around and talking to somebody, and then next thing you know he's on a plane in El Salvador with a naked back on some other guy's butt like a human centipede. True story. True story, I'm not even going to say who.
Speaker 1:You cannot follow that statement with true story.
Speaker 2:Last name, moreno, don't help, go ahead.
Speaker 3:True story. I had somebody that said to my daughters, because my daughters are very artsy and building and stuff like that, they're like oh yes, it's because your Mexican ancestor, you know that builds like layers and I was like no, I swear to God. They said you're so good at your, you know, creative building and it's the Mexican ancestry of your building of blocks and buildings. And I'm like come on man.
Speaker 3:That's great. I got to say a shout out. I just got a text message from my man, michael, from Michigan. He said to give a shout out to the grandmaster of disaster, the man himself, grandmaster Herb Perez.
Speaker 2:So that's from Mike Whitney. Tell him I said hi, yeah, he's the man.
Speaker 3:I'm working on a book with him. We've been working on it for a long time and TJ knows him very well.
Speaker 2:Well, I working out for a long time and uh, well, tj knows him very well. We've, well, we, I found, you know, I found a, uh, I found a video of your last trip to fresno. I haven't been there yet, okay, all right. Well, you must have been there. You moved pretty quickly, all right, but uh, how is how about your mother?
Speaker 1:I guess, how about your mother?
Speaker 2:I'm telling so, uh, uh. So you're getting ready to go to fresno, and what are you doing in fresno?
Speaker 3:just a training camp with a gentleman, my coach carter. He's got a pretty good program there, especially uh oh yeah, so um yeah, he's been to a few of my place, my uh, my camps in in up in the san francisco area, with james howe and he asked me to come out and we found the date. Yeah, we'll be out there, so it'll be fun. So if you're in the area, you're welcome to come, if not next time.
Speaker 2:Next time it's nice to see you all. Well, let's get started today. What do we got?
Speaker 3:I want to talk about this last President's Cup that just happened in Europe. President's Cup, young, is like each continental area has a President's Cup and it's a value of a G3, which is higher than the most value, and it's extra points. So you get a point cap of 40 points and this can go above and beyond. So technically you could win 70 points. So, anyway, it's the best of the best A lot of Europeans, a lot of Asians, and it's a very good event.
Speaker 3:The Russians destroyed it. They were just like I I talked about last week with the cadets and I said there's only one country that is dominant and that's russia. The russians were everywhere. They were amazing. I watched some of the big ones fight. It was. It was really fun to watch. But what I want to talk about is the chest protectors, the Gen 3 chest protectors I had personally sent to me, I think by four or five different people. Yeah, four or five different people. Imagine where a kick goes up and five points go up. I mean it was just and if you're not watching, you know, and there's just sometimes there could be a melee of kicks and you didn't know, did two points score. I mean it was chaos and this is a brand new system and, if I'm not mistaken, tj, this is for worlds. I think they're using this for worlds yep absolutely.
Speaker 3:Yep, that's the goal.
Speaker 1:That's the goal.
Speaker 3:That's the goal for world championship they're using it, the grand prix challenge in charlotte and like I mean buy socks. We got to buy Gen 3 socks.
Speaker 1:I was thinking about that the other day after you mentioned it to me. Think about how, again, we always go to the underprivileged countries. How disadvantaged are you if you don't even fight on the system? You're showing up to an event to fight on the system for the first time of something of the magnitude of a world championship Potentially right. That in itself has to be an issue. I don't know how you fix it, but I don't think we can keep switching systems like that and they just keep getting more and more expensive.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they keep getting more and more expensive they should fix their system and not change their system and force us to buy more things. Just fix gen 2 or gen 3. You have an upgrade, but your socks don't work or whatever. Look at I mean, and I'm gonna we always talk about how europe and asia are of us. They've been fighting all year in Gen 3 and KPMP 2. And we're still Grand Prix. I'm sorry. All of our nationals and domestic tournaments have been Gen 2. The Rio Open next week in Rio de Janeiro is KPMP. It's not Gen 2, kpmp, it's the standard one. So it's just crazy how here we are, trying to be advanced and we're not even fighting on the most current systems right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's impossible.
Speaker 3:That's crazy, it's impossible, it's a tough situation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean between that and the, and it'll probably get switched out last second too. It'll probably get switched out or changed. I mean, we've seen it before. Remember the last Olympic cycle? They said we wouldn't be able to switch from Dado to KPP before the Olympic Games. Yeah, Remember that whole fight? That was a fight, oh yeah. And then that just went away, and what do we have at the Olympics? Kpp.
Speaker 3:It happened, you're right.
Speaker 1:I think we're headed down the same path and I think it will happen late. We talk about all the speculation, how bad it was at the World Championships in Mexico for the data in front of the world you know what I mean and that kind of set the tone. It kind of changed everything. I think we've entered that early now, early, early early On that note.
Speaker 3:I mean just because it's not a secret, it's public knowledge, especially for a lot of high level coaches. We have a WT coaches chat room and we we exchange a lot of information on that chat, on WhatsApp, and we you know whether it's events or rules or whatever and of course this system was really getting blasted by the Europeans because they were competing on it and they just saw a lot of discrepancy. And then but I'm going to bring up my man I don't want to use the word good friend. I mean I've known him for years and we're definitely friendly. I've known him, his family and I watched his boys grow up and good friends with his brother as well, competed against him twice.
Speaker 3:Gergely Salim was having a big problem with a lot of referee calls on deductions. To be honest with you, his son was, I think he's a three-time European champion, he's a two-time Olympian, I mean class act kid. I've never seen him get deducted out in his life, in his career, and he got deducted out in this President's Cup by Comjohns in a really short period of career. And he got deducted out in this, you know, president's Cup, you know, by Comjohns, in a really short period of time and you know I mean there's. I know every call is debatable. I saw a couple that I'm like hmm, but there was a couple in there that were called really, really quick and if it's not anything for a referee to be that impactful in less than a minute and deduct somebody out, how many did?
Speaker 1:he get in a minute. I didn't see the last. How many did he get? In a minute Five. He had zero and went to five in a minute Five. And 60?
Speaker 3:I think it was less to me. I mean I have to go back and watch. It was a short period of time, but it was like clinch come John, clinch come John, and it he don't run from nobody, he fights everybody.
Speaker 1:So I can't even imagine it being like him sprinting and falling and getting out of the way and all that stuff like that.
Speaker 3:It was for holding. It was for, like, his foot got caught up one time and he fell down. I mean, it was just a weird.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I always find that gum jump weird when you watch a kid or someone slip on the logo in the middle of the ring, like in no tech one, no window contact, where they kind of smooth and their foot comes up off the mat. And now we're, we're down one point because we slipped, like I, I don't know. I think the warning, like the, the stand-ups, were important back then.
Speaker 3:You know well, I think, I think what's worse than that one is when you kick somebody in the head and they run you over, you know, and then you and you, you basically get thrown out and they they rarely call a push, they just give you a come down for falling on the ground or the one where you someone kicks to the person's head and you can watch them grab and pull the other person down and then they wave it off Like that one drives me nuts.
Speaker 1:It's like dude. You had to see this kid losing his balance and him pulling the other guy to the floor on his way down.
Speaker 3:Good referees will call it, but I would say you're right. We can hear you Nine times out of ten. It's not called.
Speaker 2:Do you hear me more on this one? Or do you hear me more on this one?
Speaker 1:I don't know, I can't tell If you put them up closer to one another. You might sound loud on one but that's just logical, I guess.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh, I mean, listen, I only bring it up because I have support for Gerger and his family, because I just, I mean, I only bring it up because, you know, out of support for for, for Gergay and his family, because I mean they're, they're, they're talented. And you know, he sent me some private clips that weren't actually on the on that chat and I got to agree with him. There was some some really strange things that just weren't being called his way, you know. And so again, I don't know if that's, you know if there's some dislike for him or his athlete or his family, but it was weird, I ain't going to lie.
Speaker 1:I mean it was definitely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was at the American East Open this weekend and I was informed that there's this new rule.
Speaker 1:Oh no, I was informed that there was this new rule that basically I guess WT's new thing is about the coaches interacting with the referees. Like, basically, if I'm like saying this is what happened, I was in a chair and I'm going like that's got to be holding For sure, that one's holding. Apparently, those are warnings to be told to sit down Even though you're in your chair, you're not being ecstatic. But any words of interference of the match's calls and that one kind of runs me the wrong way because that's why I'm not allowed to talk about the match, I'm not allowed to voice my opinion of a call, like I think we're going too far with the rest, to the point where it's like, oh, if you do it again, you'll get a yellow card. That's what I was told this weekend as a new update as far as coaches interacting with the referees or the matches Not even the matches, not even particularly talking to the referee or being like ecstatic or jumping out their chair or anything like that.
Speaker 3:I'm going to say something. I'm going to go. Okay, I'm not sure if that is the case. If it is the case, we're going to find out real fast at the at the Grand Prix challenge.
Speaker 3:Okay, If it's not the case, then somebody is, somebody is misinterpreting. I've also heard that they're not going to score a front hand punch anymore. Again, this certainly hasn't been told to us. So if it's told to the referees and we are punching or we are talking, get a deduction, that's improper number one. But number two I'm going to go back to something.
Speaker 3:Listen, I appreciate the American referees trying to do their best job, but they do as a disservice, because I watch over there in Europe and I watch in Asia and I watch in Asia and I watch how the referees interact. They let people go and I feel like our guys are just trying so hard to give deductions that they're interfering too hard to the match. You know, now I just talked to you know, I don't know where that lady was from in the Salim match, but generally speaking, I was watching those cadets, youets, I was watching the Europeans open and they let those kids fight. They were grabbing, they were pushing, they were punching, they were going. And I'm watching the United States and they're like uh, uh, uh, and they're so quick to show that they know a rule or they saw something.
Speaker 1:That's what it feels like.
Speaker 3:It's the NFL. Every single play, there's a holding. Every single play, there's a holding. Every single play. Do you call it or not? Based on did it affect the play? Do you understand what I'm saying? And I think this is what happened with our referees here. You know it's tough, Tough calls.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I see that a lot too. I know we talk about it, I know there's no way to document it, but I feel like we're so and they like to make calls that like, say, if you're up by five or six or something and the call doesn't affect the immediate part of the match, I feel like they give it more likely to show that, like, I'm being fair, this I'm being fair crap. You know what I mean. Not that the call was warranted, not that it made sense, no-transcript. And it's like you already give me five deductions. You give me up to five deductions to play with. You put a limit of how many penalties I can have. Now, if I pitched a shutout at this point, I'm up and there's eight seconds left. Why can't I use those to my advantage now? Everybody does it right. Every other sport does it. Why can't I slowly back up and not engage anymore?
Speaker 1:Why do I have to go forward in those situations you give me five, and now I?
Speaker 3:can't use them. I've said that forever. I've said that forever. Like boxing, I can move around. Listen, I scored 10 points. It's your job to catch me. As long as I'm staying in the ring, I don't care if I'm freaking.
Speaker 3:Moving like this, like again. This is some people aesthetically trying to fix the matches that have never fought and don't understand even. Like you said, let's say I go back, back, back, back, boom. Like that's a strategic move is to move back. You're. Now someone says you can only do it twice. If not, you're not fighting. If I do it three times, I'm out of the ring. It's, it's, it's a dumb rule. I don't care what anybody says. It's, it's, it's what, what's it? Why can't I go like this? Why can't like, if you kick me, why can't I? I duck under. Why can't I turn and back around like, oh, it's a dangerous play, it's dangerous for me. If I get hit, then I'm dumb. It's not dangerous to you. It's just. What's the difference of moving or ducking or spinning out? If I can get away from you, I get away from you. Whoever makes those kind of rules? They've never fought and they don't understand what's happening in a real match, real match.
Speaker 1:And I'll debate that with anybody Bring them up?
Speaker 1:I don't think there's much of a debate when it comes to that. I know we always talk about the past generations of Taekwondo and this generation of Taekwondo. I think that takes the personalization of someone's game and style out of it. You watch boxing. You got different type of boxers. You have aggressive boxers, you have counter boxers, you have patient boxers, you have boxers with a lot of foot step, foot movement and some people that want to encourage and fight and that's what our sport has went away from.
Speaker 1:I watch it. It's cut, cancel, cut, cancel, cut, cancel. Try to find your foot. Because I can't really afford to be fancy, because if they get close now I'm down by three. There's so many things that went wrong, but you're a hundred percent right, it's just taken. I don't. I don't see a reason why, like I can't go a hundred percent defensive. I can do defense for 20 seconds. You can't score on me. That has to be your fault, that's your fault. I can't be, even if I'm stationary on my spot and I'm just catching everything, catching everything, stepping on everything, like, yes, obviously I'm avoiding, but I'm avoiding this guy's shots because I'm better than him, I got his timing, I know where to put my body, I know how close to be, I know how far to be, and we've taken that away because then they're going to fight, or even the rush when people are standing still and they're going to fight.
Speaker 3:What do I want? The NFL yesterday did not ban the tush push, because the Philadelphia Eagles, they all get in line and they all go down and the quarterback usually gets a yard or two. And they didn't ban it. And I was, look, I don't like it, they kill my team with it, they kill everybody with it. But just because a team does something really well, better than anybody else, why should you ban that play? Right, I was about to say it's not an illegal play, it's not Not anyone can do it, but they tried to figure out that you can't. They're going to make a rule for it Again.
Speaker 1:It's like Because of the fans, though. Because of the fans, because of how they want it to feel and look oh, it's too easy. Or he gets it every single time, or it's cheating. It's not real football. Blah, blah, blah, blah blah.
Speaker 3:So if it works every single time, everybody should do it. It doesn't work every time. Only certain teams can do it. Eagles do it better than everybody. People can't replicate it. So I'm just kind of giving the analogy to the sport. I agree with you, tj. If I could stay in there, so what if I just stood there and just blocked everything? Am I avoid fighting Technically, but I'm just stopping Technically? But no, yeah, but what if I decide to use footwork? I'm avoiding fighting technically, but I'm just staying out of the way. I don't know.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's a, you can lose a. I mean again, now we're going down the rabbit hole here. But even, like I said, I was at this American East Open thing this weekend and I watched some matches. I'm talking about the kids' side, the kid side. I watch some of these cadet and junior matches where it's like, oh, the person is getting killed for three rounds, like to the point of like they're crying, they're distraught and like they have no idea what's going on, and then they win the match. I watch people get beat up for three straight rounds to the point they're in tears and they win the match based on solely just the rules. You know. Oh, instead of a little girl, the person going out of bounds, they push them out of bounds like no, this girl has been crying for for the last 45 seconds. She's showing no resistance at all. So whatever I do is going to look extra aggressive, right, but like I'm watching it, like I mean, if you, if you, I wish I had, if you could watch that match back without seeing the score you're going.
Speaker 1:Man, this is so one-sided. And other little girl one or other, yeah, other little girl one, and it's crazy to me. It's crazy. That's where our sport's gotten to. Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's what we're enabling by not allowing style, by not allowing people to fight in a clinch. You know the time that one person starts to complain or cry. We've used all these deductions to our advantage. Yeah, that's the issue.
Speaker 1:We cheer I here. I think we messed up and I think I said it before we cheer when someone falls. That's where our sport went wrong. We started cheering for deductions, like we're hoping for them, we're doing things to cause them to slip and like get a point off of it, canceling and getting their leg out of the way. I think that's where we went wrong. Like that's where the game, that's where it changed everything. No-transcript call holding when obviously I'm not fighting. But do I need to be fighting right now? The referee can call not fighting. When should I be fighting right now? There's so many interpretations of this rule and it takes us down a whole other path of why it becomes more complicated to call and to judge this game.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean 100%. I mean I agree with you. I mean, getting back to the original thing, as far as the chess predictors, they need to fix this Gen 3. I don't know, I don't know what they're going to do. I don't know if they can do it in time, and I know it's a political fight between D people like KP and P better, I mean KP and P has Regular chess cards, mess up the world, what?
Speaker 3:Let's do it. I mean, I'm ready for it, that would be something. So, anyway, I mean let's let that go, let's change something I got to. It's so funny because I know we talked about you know, someone just got, you know, bought or purchased a book, and when I heard about that purchase of the book, I remembered something. Someone had told me something. I couldn't remember who. I figured out who that didn't speak. I heard you have a big fan, mr Perez that someone didn't like your presence or your. I don't even know why it matters in that person's book, but about your position of national team captain during the Olympic games.
Speaker 2:I was national team captain from 1989 through 1992. Historically, I was captain after Jay Warwick retired and decided to pick the pockets of USA Taekwondo for many years and I was captain and you had been on teams that I was captain of and there was a reason I was captain. I was. Usually you choose a captain and this isn't talking about me, but usually you choose a captain one of two ways. One, you choose a captain based on their success matrix, right, and how did they train? What did they do? How did they do Right Number do, how did they do right? Number two how they lead a team. And then in some cases rare cases the organization will choose the captain.
Speaker 2:So in my situation, I was the last guy from the generation before me that kept fighting and training and I had certain leadership qualities and then, to speak frankly, I was one of the most successful with you, one of the most successful athletes in the history of the sport. And, uh, I won a bunch. I beat korea, won, won the world cup, won the pan am game gold medal, so, um, you had an olympic silver medal. And so, between the two of us, I was a little bit older and, uh, for the men's team captain. Um, that was a, that was a, that was a, that was just a choice. Second, um, over the years and demonstrating my skill as a captain.
Speaker 2:When the 92 team came around, um don kum park was the coach and he knew me from my days back in new york. So, in addition to being senior to everyone on the team, and, uh, you and I were on the team together, han wan lee was on the team, the team together. Han Wan Lee was on the team and um, han Wan. Han Wan Lee didn't have a record. He was a good fighter, but he didn't have a record and um, so, between you and me, I was a little bit older and so probably that's why I ended up men's team captain and Han was co-captain. I think because, um, you know, to be honest, I think, um, that was fair. We both were on the team, we both had spent a lot of years on the team together and teammates. Um, we only had four men, so you couldn't, honestly, I don't want to interrupt you.
Speaker 3:I was gonna listen. I mean, I was on the team since 88. Tonight, 92, five years in a row. But and, and quite honestly, you were always the, you were the captain, um, and when it got to 92, we had four people. We had you, hanwoo Young, james B Hassan and me. And I mean I was just going to say just seniority based on your age and based on your longevity of the team. I mean, listen, I had a lot of wins up at that point. But I think it's interesting because it was such a non-factor, it was such a normal thing.
Speaker 2:We didn't talk. I don't even think we talked about it. I think you're right. It was just like no, we had eight people on the team.
Speaker 3:We had eight people on the team between yourself, ha-won Lee and Lynette Love. Three out of the five were like super older seniorities than us. And then you had people like you know me James Viasana, terry Poindexter and Diana Murray and Daniel Laney.
Speaker 2:So Diana Diana Murray Diane Murray, nice girl. No seniority, no record. Terry Poindexter no record, no seniority.
Speaker 3:Who was the other one?
Speaker 2:James Viasana. No, I mean women, lynette love uh, yeah, terry, terry points.
Speaker 3:There's uh lynette love um uh, danielle laney and diana.
Speaker 2:No, no no record, no, whatever. So that leaves in the history of the sport there's never been. Uh, because the men just went to more events. There were always the men, the overall captain was always a man, and that could have been a woman, I guess, in some case, but it was record-based, so I don't who said what. What was said?
Speaker 1:I don't know you guys are. Thank you, I do have a book. This is the book he's talking about. Oh, lynette Love said it.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, never mind. So you know, very nice message. Thank you In general, but you guys, have ruined the book.
Speaker 1:For me, it's like watching hearing about a movie before you read it, like I haven't even opened the book yet. It's like now I got to, like I'm reading it. It's like searching whatever we're talking about right now. So thank you guys for that.
Speaker 2:So ankle biter is no, it's a little different than a pillow biter, but an ankle biter is a, uh, someone who, instead of running faster, they bite at the ankle of the person who's running and faster in front of them. And one of the things that's good about being in front of everyone else is the view is really nice, it's an open vista if you're riding a bike or you're running or whatever. And um, coach moreno always ran long distance way better than I did Sprints I was better. So when ankle biters speak, for the most part I don't speak, but when an ankle biter ie Lynette Love wants to speak, let's be clear Lynette wasn't good at taekwondo. Lynette wasn't a good leader. Lynette didn't practice and Lynette didn't work hard. She didn't train. During trainings, she was always injured. She didn't do taekwondo. She did.
Speaker 2:I am tall, though she was six foot eight or seven foot. Aguni Gugu, who was bigger than everyone else, and the men would take turns beating her to death in practices when given the opportunity, at which point she would go hide in a corner or cry to somebody about what was happening. So I don't have anything bad to say about Lynette. That's just factual. In other words, she wasn't good at taekwondo, she barely won, and then, when she faced people that could fight, which is what happened in Spain, she lost. Faced people that could fight, which is what happened in Spain she lost.
Speaker 2:And so, as a leader, hold on a second. As a leader, just to speak, leadership comes from how you train and practice period. When you go to the gym, you're the first guy in the gym, you're the last guy to leave the gym. And so Jay Warwick and Dae Sung Lee were captains for a reason they were in the gym, they trained and there's nothing you can say bad about them. Juan Moreno, all of us, we trained before practice, after practice and we had special practices. We trained as hard as anyone else.
Speaker 2:I can't say that about the women. I can't say that about Lynette Love, and I can't say that she would be a great leader. What I can say is she barely made it through the Olympic team trials. She didn't train and she lost at the Olympics. So those are just facts. Now, if she wants to ankle bite, you know there's what you know.
Speaker 2:I tell my son when he's playing soccer guys like to talk on the field. Don't talk If they keep talking. Just take your finger and point to the scoreboard. So I'll point to the scoreboard and the record board. So I love, point to the scoreboard and the record board. So I love Lynette. I'm sad that she would take. I don't know what's going on in her personal life. I know she has some challenges. I'm glad that she wrote a book and I encourage people to read my book. But and then after that, if you want to compare it, read her book. But I'm sad that she would do that because I have the utmost respect for my olympic teammates and I have the utmost respect for anyone who's ever made an olympic team let me say this.
Speaker 3:I mean again, I mean you spent more time with her. Well, yeah, I spent time with her on national teams and stuff and again, she's extremely accomplished. And you know, I had so much respect for her because she was way before me. I was a little kid when she, when I made the team and she was you know she's, she's had a great career and stuff. It's kind of sad, I think you know that she, you know, kind of took a shot at you. But I'm going to say something I have another person that wrote a book with his family and I was in that person's book and they, they took a couple shots at me and stuff like that. And when I saw him I'm like, hey, what was that? He's like, come on, you know, we got to have a little pizzazz in there to kind of spice things up, because I'm like that's not the way I remember things happening. And he's like, well, so maybe she's trying to—.
Speaker 2:Everybody—so you know what the beautiful—there's a science about this right, and the science is how you create a memory. So we all recreate memories, because we really don't. You know, I studied Buddhism. Now you live in the present moment. You think there's a future, but in reality there's only a present. You think there's a past. So when you think there's a past, you start to recollect the past. And the beauty of memory is that you start to create a past and you remember it in a different way, because it's a, it's a construct. If I told you to remember swimming, you would see yourself swimming. Now, the reality is you couldn't have seen yourself swimming. If you remember yourself swimming, all you would see is water splashing, splashing and you'd see the bottom of the pool. That's how people swim. In TJ's case, you know he'd be on the bottom of the pool because you know historically, you know I'll leave it at that. It's so fucking stupid.
Speaker 1:He can't help himself, he can't.
Speaker 3:It's true, because I can't, because I can go across the river.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm sure TJ had to be. That's why he joined the army and not the navy, but the um on the other, on the other side of that um, I don't remember seeing lynette ever swim, so let her I. I'll let her recreate her memory, because the best advice that I heard was a beautiful woman who was the woman in scandal and her name was carrie washington, and she said I just try to be generous. And what does that mean? She said well, if someone's having a tough day or I can be that thing that causes them to feel better, I just absorb it, cause it doesn't matter to me. It's like a cloud passing in the sky. And so I love Lynette. I hope she's enjoying passing in the sky, and so I love lynette. I hope she's enjoying success in the 25th iteration of a taekwondo school. She's tried to open and close that have failed. I hope she's not working at starbucks anymore, whatever else she was doing, and I hope she has a better life, because she deserves it.
Speaker 2:She was a great athlete. She, um, was tall, um. She never learned how to back kick or back hook kick, but she was tall and she could kind of throw a push kick, which was in the days of dinosaurs, highly effective against the short, fat people. She would fight from various South American countries and her career ended as it should. She fought Corral from Spain, who was an amazing athlete, very talented and, in fairness to Spain, corral should have won the first time they fought. She won the next time. I think the record book says what it says.
Speaker 3:Did they fight in?
Speaker 2:1988? I think I don't know if they fought in 88, but I know they fought once before and I watched the match and I never talk about matches because we all win matches we should have lost and we all lost matches we should have won. But her comments about the thing that I think was disturbing when I saw this clip was I don't remember any of us, we didn't have a right to jockey for a position to be captain. It was either de facto known or it was given to us by a coach and so, like the idea that I cared, I didn't care about. You know what I cared about? And it showed I cared about winning an Olympic gold medal and that's what.
Speaker 3:I focused on. I didn't mean to go down a rabbit hole, I just thought it was funny because you've got to focus.
Speaker 2:You know you want to. This would be a great podcast. Who I? I'll ask the question now who was the best woman fighter that we had? We name a couple of great women fighters that we've had on the U S team. And I'll tell you that I wouldn't start with Lynette. Who would you start with?
Speaker 3:Oh no, I'm going to real fast. I'll go back to so TJ just because of now. We're talking about captains. Think, in light of everything he just said about how a captain was made, who's the USA team captain?
Speaker 2:You don't have one. You don't have one.
Speaker 3:You don't have one because you don't have any leadership.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess that was going to be my next question, kind of leading into it. Do you think that, like whether it's on a development level, on a national team first of all, we don't have a, it's a whole nother story but on a development level, on a national team level, like, is having a captain important? Do?
Speaker 2:you need that person. I had this conversation last night. I had this I had dinner with the coach from a very high level college who was in town to meet me and talk to my son and we we mentioned that. I said I've talked because I talked about a team dynamic. Do you have it in soccer? Is there like, do you have like 11 guys to get on the field? I said and do you have a captain? What does a captain do? How do they lead? What do you expect in it? And I'm going to say without a doubt that currently, first of all, you need a captain. You do. Yeah, when I got on the team, jay and Daesung were captains. They kept me in check. I didn't want to hang out with the team. They're like we're going to a movie. I said I'm not going to a movie. He's like you're going to a movie. We do things as a team. We're going to dinner. I don't want to go to dinner. We're going to dinner and I learned there's you, which is important.
Speaker 1:Then there's the team, which, it's crazy. I think I never had to. I don't think we've ever. I think about me being at peak and being around all the great guys when I first got there Tony being there, rufus being there, all the guys that are like the older guys before I got there. I don't think it ever was said out loud that this person is the captain.
Speaker 1:But you knew, you knew. You knew I don't know if it was a captain or that you knew who was the big dog in the room. You know what I mean. You knew who, who, who set the standard. You knew who. You knew who to marry yourself after. If he wasn't tired, you couldn't be tired. If he didn't sit down, you didn't sit down. If he was yelling, you were yelling, like that's. That's inferred in, like, I guess, the energy given. I guess my question is is it worth if you have to go to the point of going assigning? You're the team captain, you're the guy and you got to explain to them their roles and duties, or does that just like happen over, like a span of time, or like on accident, or like without being?
Speaker 3:said, it's tough when you don't have anybody that just stands out like what we just talked about. But I also think you do listen. I'm a culture guy so I think even on a cadet level and a junior level, okay, you pick the oldest kid on the team, you pick the oldest kid on the team, you pick the biggest kid on the team, I mean, other than if they're super shy or introverted but you just say listen, so-and-so is going to be the focal point. When something comes up, we're going to talk to him, he's going to make sure that everybody knows. I think you've got to start that Maybe that person doesn't end up the captain next year or whatever.
Speaker 3:But if you're a good coach, you can find the alpha male in the room or the alpha female in the room and kind of start to build that process. So is it as prevalent as when we were fighting? Probably not. It's probably been diminished. And I know where you're going, tj, we don't really have a national team, but we have. You should have a focal point just to kind of relay information to people. I mean, I really think it's it's, it's a part of course.
Speaker 2:You need it because here's what happens, and coach Moreno and I have. And we've been fortunate because coach Moreno and I have had three different relationships One, when he first made the team, I didn't make the team, I was on the sideline. And two, we were athletes together and I was only his senior. Then three, I was team captain and he was athlete. Four, I was head of team and he was coach. And five, I was administrator and he was coach. So we've each lived in each one of these and I can tell you that I met with him when I was head of team and talked to him about what I wanted the culture to be, and then he went down to the athletes and disseminated the culture. And when I was captain, I talked directly to the team and he was there.
Speaker 2:When it's no fun being captain, everybody thinks it's some great thing, it's extra work and you want to focus on yourself. But now you've got to watch some guy who decides he wants to bring a girl to his room and, by the way, he's rooming with the other team captain who doesn't handle it. So now, as captain, I have to handle it. So now, as captain, I have to handle it. Um, now I want to focus on what I'm doing and the way it works is I'm on a bus, he's got a girl on the bus, I got jay and dayson looking at me you're dead. Because the president is looking at him and saying you're dead and that nobody's held accountable anymore.
Speaker 1:That's the problem nobody's like we, we held the culture they lost. We don't. We held everybody, but here's where the demise came.
Speaker 2:The demise came when we had a group of people who were abusing the system because they could and they were instructors who had no history in sport and they were abusing the culture of senior junior and they were cheating and lying and stealing. So then all of a sudden rightfully so a lot of Americans became disillusioned with the senior junior thing. Then we went the other direction too far.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we empowered people and they're like, oh, I'm coming to practice and if I want to wear a T-shirt, I'll wear a T-shirt, or if I don't want to practice today, today I'm going to go to sports met. And so we went fully in the other direction. And then we lost leadership, we lost mentorship, we lost esprit decor, what is what you guys call culture. And when you lose culture, tj, you were in the, you were in the uh, merchant marines, right, or something like that. You were in the. No, you're in the army, and I know that in the army they have a culture. I I don't think that you showed up and said I don't think I'll wear my cap today. You guys okay with that. I don't think you saw your sergeant and said hey, what's up, brother, how you doing Right.
Speaker 1:That's the tough part for me right there, but I think that's you got to blame. I don't know, I blame nobody, but the coaches. Like I, just if I, if one of my guys, if I hear from any of these coaches or people that one of my guys was like what's that man? Or call them by their first name, I'd be so thrown off and we'd have to deal with it like it's like and it happens to me every now and then and I'm just like there's no way this person think this is okay, like it's just not normal, like I go to 1993 you asked any member of the 1993 world championship team was towards the next changeover of leadership of the guard which I coached that team and was team manager.
Speaker 2:Ask any of them if they didn't understand what the culture was. Garth Cooley may he rest in peace was made team captain because he was the most senior guy on the team and Garth, from me, got the culture. Garth transmitted that culture down to David Kong kong. All the guys and three of my guys were on that team who understood the culture and they did stuff. And you want to know, the only ones complaining wasn't the men's team, it was the women's team when they had to run the stairs to death or they had to hang on the wall. And then they tried to find somebody to complain. Why are we hanging on the wall? It's like, uh, it's part of the culture, my friend, you don't have to love it, you don't have to like it. Part of the culture. Back when we were coming up, the junior member on the team did laundry. I did laundry and made noodles, made ramen at night. So if the senior wanted ramen, you got water, you made ramen, coach moreno yeah, but hey, someone tried to tell me to clean the room one time.
Speaker 3:I was like you must be crazy man. I'm going to bed, man, it didn't work on me Anyway let's change it.
Speaker 2:One last story. One last story my brother, james Villasano, who I love dearly. James was my roommate at the Olympics. And this guy, untold. I didn't expect anything from the guy. This was a guy I'd come when we were ready to. He'd make the beds not his bed, he'd make our beds. He would clean up the room he was. He would pack our bags, pack our bags. So I go to law school, I go on a trip with my friends to like your bag, like you put your stuff in your bag, literally packed our bag.
Speaker 2:True, true story. I go to. I go to go to uh law school first year after um olympics. I go on a trip with a couple of my friends. We go down to florida hollywood, florida to hang out for spring break. We get ready to go to the next place we're going. We we're halfway there and I go where's my stuff? He goes what are you talking about? I was so used to my juniors packing my stuff or bringing it. I totally left my stuff. Left my stuff in the last hotel room.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know, I know when were you, brother. I needed you TJ. All right, let's move on.
Speaker 1:You got to be able to get there with folding your underwear. It's crazy.
Speaker 2:Lynette, Miss Love, a lot of respect for you. You are my senior in taekwondo and I always, when I see you smile, regardless of all the other stuff, I still love you. I forgive you for, in your moment of finding a pencil or AI to draft your book, that you decided you would take a shot at me. But as we say here, sorry, not sorry.
Speaker 3:I want to talk about two things. Real fast, you got something TJ.
Speaker 1:No, I'm listening.
Speaker 2:Why is he blocking?
Speaker 3:the.
Speaker 2:Joker today. Oh there, it is All right, I see the joke.
Speaker 3:I was thinking about the um. I mean, you got the reopen next week, but I think, probably more importantly, the the Charlotte. You know the Grand Prix challenge. Um, what you're doing? A camp, well, we're hosting. You're hosting the camp we've been able to bring super excited I'm really.
Speaker 3:I mean it's it's not huge, you know, but I think we have 40 plus athletes. You know, different athletes from, uh, around the states, um, from from brazil, from puerto rico, from a couple of caribbean islands, from jamaica, from haiti. So it's uh, it's really shaping up to be a pretty good program, you know. I mean, obviously the focus is going to just be on interaction and movement, not necessarily the quote, unquote, learn or have somebody teach anybody, but just kind of the interacting and that kind of. You know me, and you have built a schedule to give each coach a little time to give their flavor of a training. I mean, again, nothing specific, but, of course, left out time for just regular matches. So what do you feel about it? What are you thinking?
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm sorry. I just got a message. Can I share this with you guys?
Speaker 1:Oh, that's important.
Speaker 2:No, I just got. I don't know where it came from. It was like it's like a random viewer, but I'll hold on a second. Can't wait to see it. It's going to be something. Hold on a second. Oh, I don't want to be real. Who is this person? It's not going to be real, I don't know. No, no.
Speaker 1:It's it's serious Like I. I guess my number must be up some way.
Speaker 3:Sorry, not sorry.
Speaker 1:Sorry, I'm fucking sorry. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm super excited about the camp though I think, like you said, we have almost 40 people and it's kind of cool for me because this will be the first time I'll hold like a big event in the room, so it'll give me a good running idea of like the capacity of the room, how the room feels with that many people. I mean, obviously it's a kind of a cool thing for me that you know you're going to be there leading some trainings, like in in the gym and another peak performance location, so that'll be big. I'm looking forward to doing a little bit of a semi. What is he showing me? A semi, a little like small grand opening.
Speaker 2:At that point, you know just to kind of start it, why wouldn't I show my muscle? You said you're talking about a semi. Go ahead, this is going south today. Man, I'm going to have to be explicit.
Speaker 1:I know, I know, but also with the other coaches coming and just having all those different you know coaches in the room and different athletes in the room, I'm ecstatic about it, and so I thought you'd ask me was it about, you know, are we charging, are we doing something like that? This is about exchange. This is about growth. This is about kind of being in a room with high-level athletes and high-level coaches that all can you know, come together and have the same vision of of, like I said, growth and and development. I think we got a good group. Um, like I said, I'm super excited about it, so hopefully it'll be a good week. I got a lot of moving pieces going on that week and, um, I'll try my best to be a good host.
Speaker 3:Looking, look, really looking forward to it, though well, no, listen, I I'm going back in there. I mean, I I always tell people, like you know, I'm just gonna use my personal peak performance model. Listen, I, I have a grassroots development. I have a grassroots development model, I have a business model and I have a do the right thing model and it might do. The right thing is to try to give back as much as possible. You know I believe in fulfillment, trying to do because I can, not because I have to. And you know there's times in certain moments of my life that you know I need to do things, do things from a business standpoint to provide for me and my family, and I don't think anybody disagrees with that kind of stuff. And then there's times, moments like this, when I can bring people together because, quite honestly, this was my creation and TJ. We were lucky enough to have his facility opened up at the right time. Everything kind of came together. And this is true. I mean, this is an invitation type event, it's not open to the public, but it's 100% free.
Speaker 3:I've had a couple of people that I indirectly know from New York and they said, hey, we'd be interested. I'm like who you got? Tell me who you got. I'm like, yeah, I think it's a fit. I had somebody call me yesterday and ask me about somebody else. I said, yeah, yeah, I think it's a fit.
Speaker 3:I had somebody call me yesterday and ask me about somebody else. I said, yeah, I don't think it's a good fit. And I was just being honest. I'm like I want people in the room that I think are going to enjoy and work with people. I mean, it's not a competition, it's not a measuring stick of I'm better than you, it's literally interaction and that's the kind of stuff that I want to be involved in. So interaction and that's the kind of stuff that I want to be involved in. So I think it's going to be great. I mean, like I said, we have you. You mentioned, I think we have um one, two, three. I think we have five different international coaches there one, two, three, four, maybe six um out of the two that you know what?
Speaker 3:I wasn't even thinking about her. She's going to be there for not for the whole time, but she'll be there. So there's another one. So just a lot of good eyes in the room and and it's going to be fun, it's going to be super, and I know you'll be a great host. I mean, I forgot to tell you I invited everybody to your house for a barbecue I'm just kidding and a big poker game Poker game for sure.
Speaker 1:Can you imagine I wouldn't have to worry about paying overhead for my school for like a year if I left that room? I'd be good to go for a while. Actually, we should put together a poker game. I might need it.
Speaker 2:Is there going to be potato salad?
Speaker 1:Only potato salad. It's just going to be poker chips and a big bowl of potato salad.
Speaker 2:Watermelon Just curious.
Speaker 3:Padilla.
Speaker 2:Who Padilla?
Speaker 3:I know Sandia. Sandia is that water by the way.
Speaker 2:Don't act like you don't know.
Speaker 1:I don't know what that is. That's Spanish, I hope. I hope I'm not that far off. Right, you said it in Spanish, correct?
Speaker 3:yeah.
Speaker 1:I didn't know that word in Spanish sorry, just being honest, you know, I'm not that cultured.
Speaker 3:Nah, it's easy. Yeah, I think the Grand Prix Challenge is going to be interesting. Like I said, I know we've got a couple weeks to build up, but I think there's some I'm going to go here and say it. There's some random people that maybe shouldn't be there, but it is a Grand Prix Challenge. It is open, so it is what it is. But I think you're going to see, I'm going to predict you're going to see some bad mismatches early on Bad mismatches.
Speaker 3:There's going to be some people that are going to go out real quick and maybe not too pretty, and you're also going to have some really we talked about this some weird tough early matches, because you're going to have some good athletes that don't have a high ranking right now just because of the reset, and they're going to be fighting some high level athletes that are have the, you know, number one, two, three, four, five seed and that's going to be interesting.
Speaker 1:it's going to be interesting maybe we can finish up, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead, finish, finish. I was about to say I'm hoping I'll probably have a few guys in my gym before building up and using the facilities to prepare. I'm super excited. I'm excited about the week. I hope the venue is up to par. I hope it's exciting. You know what I mean. I was looking a little ahead, historically right. Stop me if I'm wrong. And I'm asking you, coach, when the country gets their Olympic Games, there's usually more events in Taekendo in their country, correct, like a grand, like an actual grand prix and like an actual, like even a grand prix, to the point of saying a grand prix final and things like that. I think, when I look at the schedule, yeah, when I look at the schedule, put all the events, all we do, 2027, and I don't think we have a grand prix like you know other than this challenge?
Speaker 1:I don't.
Speaker 3:We don't have a grand prix in our country and the challenge is really not that big, because it's just, it's not that many points. You know I'm saying so yeah, yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 3:You're a world championship or whatever going on something right I hope that this, I hope that the, the usa, does a again historically, these grand prixs it's really nice. It's uh, they, they decorate it really nice. They have a good you know format. It looks really good. I hope that I've never been to this facility, the stadium, so I'm not sure if it. Can you know what it's?
Speaker 1:It's a convention center though. I think it's a convention center. I don't know. I think it's a convention center.
Speaker 3:I hope it looks like a Grand Prix, like for the finals at night. I hope you know they have good lighting and I hope they have good, you know, a good walkout and stuff like that. I hope you know, I don't know. I hope it's done well. I mean, it should be, the United States should do things first class. I got to turn on, I got to do something real fast.
Speaker 1:My wife is instructing me to turn on the oven, give me a break. Okay, I hope so too. I hope so too. I, I hope so too. I don't know, I'm hoping for stadium seating. That's all I'm hoping for. I think that one's got to be stadium seating. I don't know, we got to get the bleakers out, make us higher than everyone else, or something, but that kind of gives that effect of big-time vibe competition for me. Yeah, I don't think we can do the guardrails and stand next to. Historically, and all the modes, more than the past, have been a little bit designed like that, so I hope the design stays the same yeah, well, they're gonna need to have seats that go up, right, I mean, come on, I mean it's gotta be.
Speaker 3:you can't have like a right I don't know what, I don't need a hot tub, but you, you can't have seats that are seated like they have it right now, like like this, and have people see they got to have bleachers sitting around.
Speaker 1:I'm going to $50 a pop right.
Speaker 2:I think they'll have that yeah.
Speaker 3:When is CFA?
Speaker 1:12, 13, 14?, Something like that 13, 14, 15 or something 13, 14, 15.
Speaker 3:What month?
Speaker 1:June it's like three weeks.
Speaker 2:I'm going to be in that area.
Speaker 1:I suppose I'll be in North.
Speaker 2:Carolina at my gym. Well, I've come down because I've got to go to the. I'll be in that area.
Speaker 3:I'm going to be in Murfreesboro.
Speaker 2:Murfreesboro yeah, tennessee yeah yeah. I think that's right next door to to to north carolina is it a little? Far is it a little far like as far as the as a crow flies or as a like, is it? You know what? How do you? How do you?
Speaker 1:gotta just hop your private jet just get over here dude, there's more.
Speaker 2:I'm not getting on any jets, all these. There's a plane crash yesterday in san diego. You know, have you ever been in a small plane like I mean not like a commercial. Get over here, dude, there's more. I'm not getting on any jets. There's a plane crash yesterday in San Diego. Have you ever been in a small plane? I mean not like a commercial jet like one of these. Those things are made out of roof siding what you ever been in. It's basically like an engine with something to cover the engine. Those things are not.
Speaker 3:You remember Ruben Gayon, right?
Speaker 2:Ruben Gayon Mm- those things are you remember? You remember ruben galleon?
Speaker 3:right, ruben galleon was a good fighter and he has two great personal planes. Two personal planes and he flew. He flew me up to um uh gainesville one time to see my daughter um up there, and we went during a rainstorm the scariest shit of my life.
Speaker 2:I was just like they fly sideways, they fly, sideways, they fly.
Speaker 3:Literally he's like. He's like we got to go through these, these, this, and I'm like I'm just watching all this stuff and then I literally, when we got off, I'm like I need a drink, like I need a drink I need. I was terrified, but on the way, like a couple days later and just coming across Florida pitch black, beautiful lights it was just like the most calm thing I've ever done. It was just really, really interesting. I can't say I would want to do it again.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I've been on small planes. Little Judge.
Speaker 1:Scary. Yeah, I've only been on the little commercial ones.
Speaker 2:You've never been on a Cessna.
Speaker 1:No, not the tiny ones like that. No, like the six seaters and stuff. No, oh, actually I'm lying, I'm lying, I'm lying. When we went from um, but when I went to belize, we flew from the, where we were to like the main island, where the airport was, was one of those tiny I think there's like eight seats on there. It was wasn't the worst, but you can like, like he said, you can feel everything. You can like almost feel the air coming through the cracks of the siding. Like he said, it's not sturdy, it's not sturdy, it's not comfortable. The guy that was on the plane as a passenger he was sitting in the seat next to the pilot Like that's how tight this plane was.
Speaker 2:I'm the pilot, like that's how tight this plane was. Oh yeah, I'm like there's no way. I mean it's a cool seat, but I don't want to be up there. Yeah, the one I was on had controls on my side too, so it's one of those two seaters, but it must be like how they teach them.
Speaker 2:So there's one here, and then, yeah, same set of controls here, you know, and I was, like you know, at least I felt like I could grab something if it went went south and it was ruben's like go ahead, pull it right.
Speaker 3:No, just no, I'm good, no, just do this. I'm like no, I'm not gonna be the reason that I kill myself.
Speaker 2:No I was in the car I was in the cockpit of a 737 or 747 because my boss was, um, also a pilot for um kuwaiti airlines. He was the captain. So, um, I'm sitting back in the plane and the stewardess comes up, this flight attendant. She goes, oh, the captain would like to see you, so, okay, so I come up, they open the door. This is pre-911. Um, actually was it. Yeah, it was pre-911. And, uh, he pulls me into the cockpit and has me sit in the co-pilot seat, like flying into Dubai, and I'm like, oh my gosh, like I'm just sitting there trying not to touch anything.
Speaker 2:But I thought we had one more thing. I heard something about an athlete and like the idea that should we support If an athlete's been identified as a high performance athlete, a podium potential athlete? What level of response or support should we kind of think about? And I think this has been a challenge in the organization for a long time. And, uh, so you, there's two types of cultures, right, there's a culture where we meaning everybody in the organization is we, and then there's us and them, or us and they and I. I think, unfortunately for us in our sport there's been a historical perspective that the efforts of the ngb makes them us and they or us and them, even relative to its own developmental pipeline. And what I mean by that is we've identified athletes in the past that we think have potential, metal potential, and they end up going to a program, whether that's at the olympic training center, somewhere else, somewhere else, and all of a sudden they become us. Not we, not the royal we, but us. And then everybody else that doesn't come is treated as they.
Speaker 2:And so I wonder about that culture, because the fundamental charter of the Olympic Committee for each NGB is we, not us, and they not this select group of athletes that kiss the ring drink from the chalice of pastor sphinx. It's supposed to be we, so that means, if I'm identified as an athlete, you provide whatever resources are necessary and that are reasonable to me so that I can make a podium, podium performance for the us, all of us, all of we. You don't say to them do this, or else you become part of them and they and I. I wonder. I wanted to kind of get your thoughts on this, because I certainly have my own thoughts on it.
Speaker 1:I mean, okay, I'll go back a little bit. I mean, I go back to like pre was it pre 2020 Olympic qualifications. You know, when we, when, when Paige was competing coach and like again, athlete in a good system with a coach has taken her to the Olympic Games, let's put her on a podium that has the support, that has the training that has all this stuff is kind of pushed it aside a little bit and they start building another athlete and the reason was, well, she doesn't want to work with us, so we start pushing another athlete behind to replace this this said athlete. That is an advanced.
Speaker 1:I just don't think you see that again. Maybe you do. I just thought from from my standpoint, it makes zero sense here. Instead of just fielding and supporting this, we're we're, we're fighting heads up, to the point that we're in heads up matches against each other to make the national team I mean for a point race that would potentially get direct qualification for the Olympic Games or not. You have the national team organization using their athlete to fight against them and it's been like that for a while, you know.
Speaker 3:That's not a we mentality.
Speaker 3:I think that was interesting, tj, now that you bring that up, because I forgot about that. But it's one thing. Again, it's one thing If you say if, if, if this athlete athlete X page didn't want to be there, she wanted to do her own thing, she was successful and blah, blah, blah, for them to say you know what, okay, we're going to try to build something else, because that's what we have to do. We can't just sit around and do nothing. But when you actively try to build against that person, instead of still saying you confused me for a little bit there, young we, we're still we, we're still we, we're still the United States, we're still trying to build for the future. But their objective was to stop this person that wasn't with them, to get this person high enough in ranking to force a fight off so that possibly they could do there. There was nothing that they were trying to do for this person over here. It was the exact opposite they were against it. So I guess, to answer your question, young, is, what's the ethical obligation when they've identified somebody?
Speaker 3:I've identified, tj, I think you're really good, really good, great potential, this and that we love it. We want you to come over here and if you come over here, we'll do this, this and this and this for you and TJ says, ah, thank you, but I don't really need that. I could use this. I don't need the training. I have all that taken care of. I have a support system. Come and look at it, come and see it and if it's suitable to you, then could you help me in these other things. And I think that's the component that's missing. I remember when I was not renewed in my contract in 2012. All right, and it is what it is. It wasn't renewed and they hired Coach Patrice Remarque. I wasn't happy but stuck out my hand, coach Patrice TJ, you were there. Did or did not Patrice Remarque come out to our school to watch our trainings and to watch what we?
Speaker 1:were doing 100% Immediately the dude came out.
Speaker 3:The dude came out and said let me see.
Speaker 3:And afterwards, he said this is great, I know what you're doing. He gave me some suggestions and you know, okay, great. And after that we had a great relationship. He never doubted what we were doing. Or were we sitting on our ass doing nothing, playing chess? No, he knew we were busting our ass to make sure that TJ and whoever else that was on the national team at that time could do the best of their ability. So, anyway, I know I'm getting off on a tangent on myself, but I just to answer your question.
Speaker 1:I think. But again, I mean, even, like you just said, and again I'm just using that as an example when I actually got into the World Class Athletes Program, the WCAP program, the director came and saw the training, he saw what I was doing every single day. He talked to you he single day. He, he talked to you, he saw that the facilities was good, I mean, and he and they allowed me to stay there and train and I was being funded by, you know, the world-class athletes program at the time because of the caliber of coach, the caliber of room, the caliber of vision, the understanding of the professionalism going on in a room. But they don't want to see any of that stuff. That's why they never come. That's why, you know, they see the q soul. It's like you said, it's the us and they thing it's always been us and that, when it comes to that standpoint, Let me answer the question.
Speaker 2:If there's an ethical, here's what the Amateur Sports Act says tomorrow. Okay, one second. This is your boy, lopez. The Amateur Sports Act says wait, hold on a second.
Speaker 3:Don't let me forget about this, because the ethical part of it, because that's yeah, give it to me Tuesday.
Speaker 2:Here's the ethical part. Right. There's an obligation of the NGB to develop the we not that, they not the us, everybody in the pipeline to what degree they have to the ethical responsibility. If an athlete says, here's what I need, the organization could say okay, let's see if we can do that, because that's in the best interest of we, of all of us. If an athlete says, on the other hand, um, you know what? I don't, I don't need anything. Um, by the way, I'm not really training, I'll show up at the event and do the best I can. And uh, that's a different one. When the athlete's not participating, not doing his job, not doing his work or her work, that's different. But when you have an athlete who's doing everything humanly possible it has been identified as a podium performer then you have an obligation, and that's not just an ethical one, you have an actual obligation under the Amateur Sport Act to facilitate, because that's your job. Your job is to put people on the podium. Does that make sense?
Speaker 3:Yeah, but what I'm saying is my question ethically is if, if I was offered something right and An athlete.
Speaker 3:An athlete. You've been identified and I've been offered it and I say no, thank you, I don't need anything from you. Okay, they say we tried. I can see that. Yeah, did we or not do that? Remember that in 2012? They tried to tell us to do something. We said you know what, we don't need it. We're good. 2012, they tried to tell us to do something. We said you know what, we don't need it. Thank you, save your money. We'll stay right here in our little hole. We didn't ask for anything, zero, but that was that time. But let's say I said you identified me and I go thank you. Really, I can't do exactly what you are asking me to do. Can you do? Do something else? Can we have a hybrid? Or because that's what I'm talking about, ethically, you know you, you've identified me, but because I haven't done exactly what you said and I've given you legitimate, I've given you legitimate you still have an ethical, in other words, what I remember.
Speaker 2:This is all I'm saying.
Speaker 1:So, in other words, when you're like we're talking about athletes who are like one of the higher performing or people that are higher performing in the country, like they're comparable to the people that are in your current room that are doing it. So that's the part of it that you have to like. There's a comparison here. There's an easy comparison to making you see this person have success. Sorry, go ahead. So what?
Speaker 2:I'm saying is this If you say to an athlete so, in other words, here's the contract, and these used to be called athlete contracts. I don't know if they have them anymore they say, if you're an athlete and you're getting funding, here are the things we expected from you to do, the funding and it should be bare minimum. In other words, if we're going on a foreign trip, you have to show up at the training center a week before to coalesce with the team. Okay, great, you have to do these things. You have to maintain your condition, you have to maintain your weight. Those are all threshold issues, meaning, have to do them if you want to make the team. On the other side, if you're given options, you say here's what we think would help your performance, and you say, like Patrice did, let me see what you're doing. Instead, you said, okay, oh, this is just as good, here are some suggestions. Then you've met the athletes, met their ethical obligation to train and be the best prepared athlete they can, and the organization has made its attempts to offer what they can offer. Too often, what's happening now is you have egotistical coaches, coaches that think they are the best and brightest in the world, despite the fact that they've had no performance and they're telling them you have to come here. And the reason they're telling them to come there is not because they think it's in their best interest, but they need critical mass. They only have a handful of people there. They want people there that are good, right.
Speaker 2:So my son I go back to my son because it's the most recent experience. So my son I go back to my son because it's the most recent experience. So he's playing on a very, very good team. Well, an even better team yesterday that's a full live-in academy team wants him and are considering him. Why? Because they want to raise the level of their game. They're like the more guys we can get like this, the better it makes our players and the better it makes our place, the better it makes our environment.
Speaker 2:So now the obligation for my son is okay. Is that in my best interest, where I'm here, where I'm going, and my son's like? I don't think so. In other words, my training situation is great. I've got my plan moving forward, I've got my thing. Now, yeah, is it? Would it be better for the other team if more kids like the kids they have, and my son and other guys at high levels joined in, yeah, you'd have the critical mass or you could develop them, but you can't force them to do it, because that's just not the way the world works.
Speaker 1:Each I guess my thing is not even better or worse. It's like when I win a situation, that's not even go better or worse. Let's go when a situation is working like you. You see the person is is succeeding and the situation that they're currently in why is the goal? To change their? Situation we've talked about this I don't understand why that's the we've talked about this.
Speaker 2:This hasn't been new. In 1987, before you were, I fought in a tournament and won, beat Korea in the final. I was born in 1986, just for math. There you go. So I came over and I sat on your butt and that's why you became who you became.
Speaker 2:So on the plane, on the ride home, I was approached by the president of the organization at that time, who had a long talk with me about how I had a God-given talent and I needed to leave my instructor, move to the Olympic Training Center and train under Sang Lee. He said now, you can't tell anybody about this conversation, but this is the only way that you're going to make an Olympic team if you go, move to Colorado Springs and train under Coach Sang Lee. I looked at it. The first thing I did when I got off the plane was go tell my instructor. By the way, I had a great training situation.
Speaker 2:I was training with one of the best people in the world. I was training with the best fighter I've ever known in my life, sifu Paul Vizio, and I had a better training situation, but I was put upon privately, private, in a private conversation. This individual is still around and I should wait till he dies to tell the story, but he's around and he was part of the Korean mafia and that was the thing that was put on me. Now that came back to bite me in the butt a couple of times over the years, but I ultimately ended up getting to my goal now. Um, so that this is not new. This, this has been happening because at the olympic training center they had people that went and they went there and they weren't top level athletes, so they needed more top level athletes to go, because they needed to create a training environment, and there's only two ways to create that. One is create your own or get others to come and create it for you.
Speaker 3:So so, but, TJ, you bring a good point and I never thought about it like that. I think it's a very well thought out point. Is is why should the goal be to change what you're doing when you're successful?
Speaker 3:Again, I can understand if you're not, if, if, if. I just was like look at this athlete. He's young, he's in an environment that hasn't produced anything. I think there's some potential. I want to put him in this thing and we can grow him. That's one thing, but when I see this athlete I'm going, wow, this kid is winning everywhere. This kid seems to be in good shape. He's got good coaching. I see the coach sitting in his chair. He just came to our practice and he did pretty much amazing. Why should the goal be to rip him out of what he's doing and put him there? Should the goal be somewhere in the middle? Maybe it is a hybrid, Maybe it is you know what. Let's let him work with us, Let him continue working with you and we can develop. I'm not saying that shouldn't be an option, but you're right, TJ, it seems like the goal is to remove an implant over here like he said, just trying to build the room or whatever.
Speaker 1:But my problem is you started with a lot of people and now we're down to where we are, seven, six, eight years later. We're still sitting at the same point. And my issue is like, if we're not, let's say, the goal was like you said, I just think our product is better. I'm like our room is better. We're going to do it all ourselves. We have the staff, we have the understanding, we have everything. We're amazing. And now we're six, seven years deep and you can't call us amazing. That's my point. Like you can't say we're amazing for sure, by any means necessary, by any means of this conversation, we're not close to amazing, but that we're not trying different things. We're still. We're still doing the same thing and it's it's what to? To hope we to have the one that that fits, but we're we're taking. To hope we to have the one that fits, but we're taking. We're putting people. We're like limiting our situation.
Speaker 3:The worst thing happened. The worst thing happened Time. At the beginning we were all like they were like wait and see, you'll see, you'll see, you'll see, you'll see. Here we are seven years deep. Now we have history. Now we can go back and say look at what happened here, here, here, here, here, here. So if I'm an athlete, I'm a coach, why am I like, yeah, they're going to do it, they're going to change this person. You know what I'm saying? Like now we have a historical reference to go back and see. Like you said, they had a big room. It's whittled down to what they have. Why?
Speaker 1:It goes. It goes back to like again. What he just said is I have to go there. But, like you said, when you got off the plane and that person had a conversation, I had a conversation with you on the plane. If you don't go there, you're limiting your chance of making the Olympic team. You're not going to be on the Olympic team. You have to be in this room to make the Olympic team and we've kind of proven that you know what I mean. We've kind of seen that you know what I mean. So I mean it's TJ. What do we want? Turn it off who likes?
Speaker 3:to do this to me. I don't know if it's to the viewers, but it's loud. I mean TJ. Yeah, it's funny, herb, that was in 19,. I think it was in 1986, right, no 87, 87.
Speaker 1:He said 87.
Speaker 3:In 1987. So how many years ago? It's 20, 30, almost 50 years, 40 years, 50. At least 40. 40. 40. Yeah, 40 years, almost 40 years. 40 years ago you had that conversation and, tj, you know for a fact that athletes believe that the only way they can get to the team is to go there, because they've said that. So it's crazy.
Speaker 3:Here we go, we want to talk about the bad times of a certain ethnic group. You know what I'm saying. I don't want to marginalize that and single anything out like that, because I don't think it's worth doing that. But here we are, this many years later, and that's even in the air. That's wrong For me.
Speaker 3:That's like racism right now. You know what? I don't want to give people a pass for racism, but let's just say things were a different way 60 years ago, but in this day and age you know what racism is For white people, black people, brown people, asian people. So when people are racist right now, for me it's even worse than way back then, because people were segregated back there. If you're racist right now, screw you, because you should know better If you're going to do things like that. That happened 30, 40 years ago in Taekwondo and you're still doing those same practices. Now that's worse, because we should be better, we should have way more opportunities, we should be way more open, we should be way more educated, and the fact is, it doesn't appear that we are.
Speaker 2:I don't know, With that I think I agree. I think it's again another a topic we're going to have to delve into. We keep you guys ducked the question, ducked the question. I'll give you one last chance to respond to the question of about the females, female fighters, the best female fighters, and if you're not, willing to, then I will. I will start, but I will. I will still put it out to mr d-i-t-r, which stands for duh uh this is my non-profit organization.
Speaker 1:Is diamond in the rough you see how I thought it was. You switch one letter around you get something amazing you gotta, you gotta flow with it. Thank you.
Speaker 2:thank you, coach. I'll send you guys one. I got shirts for you, though I figured out when I saw the diamond I thought it was diamond in the rough, but I knew it was.
Speaker 1:I was like Johnny read nice one, one letter, one opportunity, one situation.
Speaker 2:Mr D-I-T-R, because that flows off the tongue so nicely, you're a female fighter, start one. Nicely, you're a female fighter, start One, don't go, don't hum and haw, that's crazy, I still like on fin weights.
Speaker 1:I like that fin weights One, just name one, alicia Bourne. I'll start with her.
Speaker 3:Coach. You know what I'll miss again. I have a lot of respect for a lot of people, mandy Malone.
Speaker 2:Mandy Malone was going to be my first choice. Mandy Malone, I'm going to give you an oldie but a goodie. Kim Dotson.
Speaker 3:Kim Dotson. I knew you were going to say that she was rough.
Speaker 2:Kim Dotson was rough From that generation, I'd go. Kim Dotson, I'd go. I got to give Arlene some love because she was a fighter. Got to give Arlene some love, Alicia absolutely. Gotta give Arlene some love, Alicia absolutely. Mandy Malone, though, was the first woman I saw fight that I didn't want to fight, like if I were a woman I wouldn't want to fight her. She could hit his heart and was willing to fight. Did we miss anybody? Who are we missing?
Speaker 3:I may say two talented people. I mean Mandy Malone was a I'm not going to say Mandy Malone. Heidi Gilbert was a talented heavyweight when she was young and I mean she could do things that no heavyweight could do. And you know what you got to give Diana Lopez. Diana Lopez can fight man that girl was. She was rough, she could do a lot of things and, again, her era of fighting was interesting. But I mean, I've seen her in practice. You know I'm talking about what I know where you guys are going this well-rounded skills. That's why I picked mandy, because she could do taekwondo. Heidi could do taekwondo, um, you know, and, and quite honestly, so could diana. She could kick with the front leg, back leg, offense defense, double kick, axe kick. She could do taekwondo.
Speaker 1:So her skills were very good. The female team overall they were tough man. Like I think that I was watching some old 2012 Olympic trial stuff with the girls. Like I liked it because there was a lot of pridedness, like everybody was competitive back then.
Speaker 3:There were a lot of good girls and scrappy girls that could fight in exchange, both of you guys know two girls that I had. Two girls good girls that I had that were really talented oh Paige.
Speaker 1:Oh, Paige Danielle first, right Danielle first.
Speaker 3:Danielle and Danielle for sure, hopefully, sorry, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I watched. I mean I'm watching the. I was watching the fight around like I watching her emotion move in time back, kick these girls, knock them on the floor. They're standing up. She's going directly to the face Like it was good Taekwondo, solid Taekwondo. I mean we had a crazy field of women in the United States.
Speaker 2:A shout out, a shout out to all the women and and if we missed anybody, we apologize. Oh yeah, again, we got a lot of great fighters. I want to thank you all for today. My brothers in arms and TJ I like your hat and D-I-T-R to you, my friend.
Speaker 1:And we are out Peace.