Masters Alliance
9th Dan BlackBelt and Olympic Gold Medalist Herb Perez visit with the best and brightest to bring clarity to the future of Martial arts.
Masters Alliance
Poomsae Drama, Olympic Pathways, and Hawaiian Birds
From the beautiful shores of Maui, this candid conversation dives deep into the current state of Taekwondo with the raw honesty that listeners have come to expect from these Olympic veterans.
The hosts dissect a controversial Poomsae scoring incident that rocked the National Championships, questioning why an unprecedented formal report was issued when a competitor was added to finals after initially placing 12th. What makes this situation particularly noteworthy is how tournament officials removed video evidence and implemented a response dramatically different from how fighting controversies are typically handled. This raises profound questions about transparency and organizational priorities that affect competitors at all levels.
As conversation shifts to the upcoming Under-21 Pan Am Games, the hosts provide expert analysis on each weight division and the qualification pathways to the Olympics. Their disappointment that the United States only qualified competitors in four divisions reveals a concerning trend about development priorities in American Taekwondo. The qualification structure potentially allows young winners direct entry to the Olympic Games - creating an alternative pathway that could reshape competitive careers.
Perhaps most fascinating is the hosts' exploration of when fighters reach their physical prime in modern Taekwondo. Their surprising consensus that today's athletes peak between 18-23 years old - much earlier than previous generations - reflects how dramatically the sport has evolved. This shift raises important questions about athlete development, career longevity, and the changing technical demands of competitive Taekwondo.
Throughout the discussion runs a thread of wisdom about humility in martial arts. As one host eloquently states, success is "rented, not owned" - a powerful reminder about perspective that transcends sport. Whether you're a competitor, coach, or passionate fan, this episode offers invaluable insights from those who've experienced Taekwondo at its highest levels.
Join us next Friday when we'll analyze the Pan Am Games results with special guest Dr. Capner. Your perspective matters - what changes have you observed in competitive martial arts development?
Sorry, not sorry, sorry. This is the Warehouse 15. And unfortunately, or fortunately for me, I'm coming to you from beautiful Mahi, hawaii. Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. Sorry, but not sorry. Hold on a second, let me get some beautiful.
Speaker 3:It looks so beautiful there. It looks like an AI back set.
Speaker 1:That's how nice it looks, you know it's really nice and I'm here with my kids and my family. They haven't been here ever. That's the kind of parent I am. You know, no kids have ever been to Hawaii, but it's a beautiful place. Obviously Expensive for locals, which I feel badly about. They have housing costs.
Speaker 3:Isn't it expensive overall?
Speaker 1:though it is. But you know it's an interesting dichotomy of things, right, because you have this beautiful area where you can kind of just enjoy nature and do all this kind of cool stuff. But then if you live here, you know you've got your, your tourism is your big profit center, right. So it's kind of a, I would say, love hate relationship, but not really they kind of deal it in. But you know, hopefully the tourists come and are respectful and participate with the right amount of deference to the community and to the environment and stuff. So it's just been a great trip.
Speaker 2:I've never been to Maui but I've been to, obviously, oahu. But I hear that Maui and Kauai they're just so beautiful. The scenery is great. There's parts of Oahu there as well, but I know there's a lot of commercialism in Oahu. Is there the same in Maui?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's different. Oahu's just a big city. I mean. I think it's more like New York. Here it's still an island feeling. It's a lot of beautiful land and forest and things to do that are all outdoor, jumping off rocks into lakes and rivers and the ocean. So I think it's different. Kawaii is even less developed, so you can kind of come here and really just kind of get away from it all, if that's what your intention is. So I think in that sense it's probably better.
Speaker 2:I remember, in oahu there's obviously waikiki beach, which is obviously the tourist spot, then there's hanama bay around, you know kind of you know, kind of you know where you get a little bit more local type people and stuff like that. So I remember that that was pretty, pretty cool. But unfortunately you're on the wrong island because I had a request from one of our co-hosts for you to go and do something to somebody, but I won't mention it.
Speaker 1:I'll let it go. It would have been my pleasure. I know I'd love to help people with I remember um.
Speaker 3:I remember 2000 us open was in hawaii.
Speaker 2:Oh, really yeah, that one I didn't go you didn't go.
Speaker 3:Yeah, 2000 us open. That was my first time on an airplane first time ever I flew to hawaii and I think back then they told us, if I remember it's like nine hours over water. You know a long trip over there, um, to fight. I fought, uh, that was 14, 17, black boat, I think it was 50, the second division 105, because I missed weight for 99. That was the one time I didn't make weight oh, I was trying to fight 99 and under.
Speaker 3:I was trying to fight 99 under and I had to move up to 105 uh, everyone hear you talk about weight loss again.
Speaker 2:unbelievable, unbelievable, just kidding. Actually I have. Yeah, it's uh think today is going to be actually kind of interesting because we're going to be all over the place because we don't really have a. We always come with some sort of agenda, we always have some kind of topic or two or something that's popped off. We're right in the middle between competitions we have the Junior Pan Ams it's going to start tomorrow which I'm really excited to check out. Then we have the President's Cup, which is in Peru, and then actually no, I'm sorry the Pan Am, and then the Grand Prix Challenge in Korea and then the President's Cup. So there's three big tournaments kind of coming up. So we're kind of right before that. So you know, I know we're not going to talk about it, but I have a guest in town and I know the guy's father really, really well. His name is Gary Hall.
Speaker 2:Gary Hall is responsible for GB just blowing up right around 2012. A little bit before 2012, they started having some serious success and he was their technical director. He used to be a fighter back in our day Young back in the day, but anyway, he transitioned into their technical director, really just transformed GB into a professional, professional environment and his son has a son and he brought him here to Florida. They're contemplating on moving to Florida and the kid is 14 years old and he's about 6'3", 6'2". Wow, huge, wow, huge. But I bring him up because the first night I took him to dinner and we, you know, we went to have some cuban food and stuff like that and, um, he asked me about you young and he was like uh, the this guy, his name is nathan nathan hall. I'll mention my name. He, um, he worked for the usat for a little bit in the uh, as a pt. Um, he's, I think he's got his master's or doctorate now. He actually just got his license here in america, but he's very, um, a very educated guy and he was working for them for a while and he decided to leave them for various reasons, whatever. But, um, he was asking me about you because he said he had a, uh, a meeting and it was with back. He worked there when may was there, may Spence and he mentioned that.
Speaker 2:I got a little confused because he's like, you know, herb Perez, and I'm like, yeah, very well, I mean it's like my brother, and he's like how was he? Was he good? And I'm like Herb was really good, herb was a beast, he was a monster and this and that. Sorry he's like, yeah, because me I, if I'm not mistaken, he said that may said you weren't good but you went. But when we went to korea, like you were a monster, like you tried to beat the crap out of every, every person that you fought, everyone sit in front of you and she said that you really stood out. So I was a little bit. I don't know if it got lost in translation, obviously speak english, but we, our conversation was all over the place, but I thought it was funny that your name got brought up and well, that's on for you I mean that's great, but I mean it's funny.
Speaker 1:You know, may may was an interesting athlete because she took probably the most backward style of taekwondo ever created by sang lee and it didn't work for anyone. I mean literally everybody that tried that style internationally got beat up and down the floor, including a bunch of our friends. So you know, and I like all the people that tried it because they were loyal to Sang Lee, but it didn't work. Like if you followed his style with his, you know, chunjin Hoojin, little small step doing all this weirdness, you know Korea would just kind of laugh. And you know, look at your kindergarten taekwondo and just beat you up and down the floor. The one thing that may may had was she was a tough kid, right, like you know. Yeah, I think she was I will give.
Speaker 2:I mean I've been talking about styles real fast. I mean I know it doesn't really relate to most people, but actually you know her brother, sam the. You know his older brother, but he fought flyweight. He actually made it work for a little while. He wasn't special but for some reason he could get, he could use his that style and he sent me. It's hard to say anything bad about, yeah sammy.
Speaker 1:Sammy's a good friend and he was another one. Actually, the two people that probably made it work the best for them were sammy and may. Everybody else had tried to, just got killed. But even then was just. You know, shortcomings would come to fruition and to light when they got to the later rounds, if they got that far. So it would work against, you know, average players. But you know May is an interesting character. She yeah, she was put in that job. Probably shouldn't have had that job, you know, and then didn't have the expertise to do it, didn't have the political or social sense on how to do it and then, more importantly, just didn't understand how to do high performance.
Speaker 2:So that revealed itself pretty quickly unfortunately, she surrounded herself with the wrong people and then they used her as a scapegoat for better or worse. Yeah, I think that's true.
Speaker 1:But she was a poster child for you know, let's be frank, right, we talk the truth here. She was a poster child for a lot of problems in the organization back when she was competing, and I won't say any more on it than that. But she was a poster child for some problems which USAT created and then still hasn't fixed. So yeah, anyway, hopefully she said good things, because I'll give her at least the respect she's due. She was an Olympian and that kind of stuff, but she is what she is.
Speaker 3:That's one of the hardest things for people to do is give people respect when they're not around. You know, yeah, it's the biggest issue.
Speaker 1:I mean, usat has always had kind of, you know, when it came to the leadership of those that were afraid because they weren't qualified. Then they start taking shots at those that are qualified. So you can't, like we talked about last week, you can't be concerned about ankle biters, right? These are ankle biters. They didn't perform well. They had limited success, if they had any, and probably in that particular group, may was probably the one that was the most successful, right? So you know, you have three ways that you can raise yourself. One is raise yourself. Do the best you can to be the best you can. Don't look backwards, because what's behind you doesn't matter. Look in front, because that's a really beautiful view, as you can see here in Hawaii. Number two, you can criticize those that came before you and make them less so that you can look like more. And then, number three, you can ignore those that came before you and act like you recreated sugar and salt, and the USAT has become really good at doing. Number two and number three, you know so it's, that's just the nature. I learned this, ironically, from Jay Warwick, who told me a story, and it was about a CEO when he was a CEO of something, and he said you know, a CEO gets fired and on the way out he's meeting his replacement. And he says to the guy listen, the guy that comes in says can you give me any advice? And he says well, listen, I wrote three letters, I'm going to put them in the drawer of your desk when you get into problem number one. Open letter number one. Should it happen again, open letter number two. And then, finally, you know, if it happens again, I've left one final letter. So sure enough, the guy says thank you, he doesn't really think about it. So, sure enough, he gets into his first problem with the organization and he says opens up letter number one and it says blame your predecessor, tell them you're going to need more time. So that's the first thing you do. So he does that, tries that, and then, of course, he still is in more trouble against the problem number two. He says tell them it was worse than you thought and you're going to need more money and more time. So he does that. And then obviously, gets into problem number three, opens up letter number three and it says write three letters.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately, this is how Jay has. Listen, that's how Jay lived his life, right, he got into USAT, got in trouble. Jay lived his life right. He got into USAT, got in trouble because he sucked the proverbial teat of the Korean mafia and then they did him. And when they did him he was crying woe is me, woe is me. Then he went into the USOC and the same thing happened, and the same thing happened at Godfather Pizza, and it pretty much happens in his life. So he's gone full circle back to USAT and I'm sure well, I hope somebody's giving him three letters, but I think he's on letter number four.
Speaker 2:So apparently, he doesn't have a letter four.
Speaker 2:You know it's funny, when I'll be I mean, I'm dating myself, I'm going back back, back back when that time frame was going on. I remember talking to him on Sunday night because there was a lot of you know who's going to be the president, who's going to be the all this different stuff, and I said, hey, is everything okay? And he was like yep, everything is good, I'm sound, I'm staying there. Monday morning, fired, oh yeah, like Sunday night, he thought everything was perfect, perfect, perfect. Yes, on Monday morning they cut him, like they used to. Um, yeah, they got rid of him and you're right, it was a, a group of people that just his boy fired him.
Speaker 1:No, his boy, the boy that he carried the water for they in korea they call the choki boys. So jay has been spending a career carrying water for other people and then trying to stay low enough on a radar where he doesn't get noticed and he gets a paycheck. And so, uh, he got covered. He got cut His boy. You know Sang Lee cut him. Let's be clear on who cut him.
Speaker 2:TJ, I like what you said, man, because you know what. I think that's as much shade as we throw around here and stuff like that and we give out the proverbial. You know good job when people do something good. But I like what you said. You know we can give people respect even if you don't like them. You know I'm saying and that's yeah, I'm not saying that we like her, just like me, but that's true. I get hats off. You know, olympic medalist and and and fought, was a good fighter for a long time. Maybe we don't agree with some of the things that happened in the end of her administration. You know situation, but you know not not disrespecting the the she didn't.
Speaker 3:She didn't know how she didn't I mean, I've only known her for the time that I knew and I had to work around she didn't know how to talk to people. She didn't know how to function in a room with like normal people. You know what I mean. It was. It was, it was a headache and I know we we've talked about that experience, some of those things she wasn't normal.
Speaker 1:You're missing the point. She wasn't normal, she was royalty. She was anointed by Sang Lee. She moved to Colorado or wherever the hell she moved to. She was you know. She was as bad as anybody else. She was anointed queen and apparently you just didn't get the memo. So she was you know. The question is, why should she talk to you? You're a bronze medalist bronze, but even talk to bronze.
Speaker 2:Yeah, again, let's talk about the, you know, the, the president and maybe the future, but I'd say something about the past that was weird about that. Like you gotta imagine, this person wasn't, didn't have a dojong, never had a dojong, never coached a program, like had been out of the sport for I don't know, was it 10 years more, maybe more and then all of a sudden like out of the the sport, not not like teaching, not coaching, like nothing, like had a whole nother business with her family and then right into high performance. So that was again. It doesn't even matter, it's, it's the past, you know, but the, the current administration, is still part of that era, if you will. You know it's kind of crazy, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, listen. Good for her. She was able to reap some benefit. She married a good friend of ours who I like Me too, yeah, so there's nothing to really say badly about him. But she didn't. She was daddy's girl. She didn't work a day in her life. Did she ever have a job, did she?
Speaker 2:ever have a job. I know she worked hard. I know, with the current business that her husband they bought, I know she worked pretty hard.
Speaker 1:Did she work enough? Yeah, she did Good for her.
Speaker 2:Speaking of the organization man TJ, what do you think about this? I know we joked about it a few times with the Poomsae stuff and then they came out with the after-action report. I don't know, did you read that a little bit or hear about that?
Speaker 3:I did read that. I don't know.
Speaker 2:Those people are pissed.
Speaker 3:I'm going to say almost as you should be Again, let me start. I don't know anything about Poomsae. I don't know what the scoring system is. I don't know what a half point plus. I don't know the margin of error. I just know it was a. No, it's all good, that was a perfect sound effect.
Speaker 1:Before you continue, just remember you were talking to a ninth-degree grandmaster, herb Perez, who I am.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I saw your Po, saw you Cookie wants certified.
Speaker 1:Cookie wants certified no, no, no, no, Don't throw any shit. Cookie wants. I'm the only person in the world, only person in the entire world, with a ninth degree and an Olympic gold medal. So when you speak about the Pumse which I love dearly in my heart Ilio and Hansu and his brother- heart, ilio and Hansu and his brother Mugugai, pan what.
Speaker 3:Are you a Fumise?
Speaker 2:guy Me no. Wt sport is different. You're no good.
Speaker 1:I have the best, I have the best of both, and you must when you speak to me now you call me Grand Master of Hawaiian Disaster, so you don't have to speak to me now. You call me Grand Master of Hawaiian Disaster, so you don't have to speak to me like that, In fact you are not even allowed to look at me. Turn your eyes away. I am a ninth degree Grand Master Pumbaa and only one, only one, only one in the entire world, not another one.
Speaker 2:I'm going to California next week, I'm going to California next week and I'm going to California next week and I'm challenging you to a poomsae off.
Speaker 1:Oh nice.
Speaker 2:We need you live.
Speaker 1:Well, I think I know number one extremely well, and I'm not talking about black belt, I'm talking about for my yellow belts, go ahead. I didn't mean to throw shade on your dissertation on poomsae, since you are such an equivocable, unequivocable grandmaster of Pumse.
Speaker 3:Hey, listen, there was a time and a day when I was a 12, 13, black belt double gold medalist at Nationals.
Speaker 1:Oh nice.
Speaker 3:And Pumse was that second gold medal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, things that I would never tell anybody. Had I done it, that's something I would never let escape my mouth. I don't know Go ahead. I would never let escape my mouth go ahead, I don't know, I scraped the day, though I could have lost. Okay, I got gold medals, those, those were in my house for a while.
Speaker 3:I was forced. No, I think it's once once, just once go ahead. I think it was. I think that overall situation is it's interesting. I think the the rollout of the information afterwards is interesting. And then the, the. I guess what kind of took me was the the statement of we consider this case closed or this issue closed, like that was just. That was strange to me. I don't. I don't know how the organization works, I don't know the ins and outs. To get a lawyer involved in something that was on the competition floor is nutty.
Speaker 2:TJ the fact that they actually had an after action report on just that thing, not on the tournament. There's been a lot of controversial things and fighting throughout the years and they've never gone to the length of putting I think it was like four pages or something like that. It was written out and even to the point of they were looking into via social media video and still pictures of people that were booing or doing something that could be construed as bullying. I'm like, wait a minute. So now they're going to go and look and just determine if somebody is bullying because they didn't agree with a decision. People disagree all the time, whether it's fighting, whether it's against Poomsae.
Speaker 1:What was the original thing that caused all this?
Speaker 3:I don't know. Someone had some scores. They went to the table, apparently complained Long story short, something in Poomsae that the top eight continue on. They added another kid in to make it nine, saying that something happened with his scoring, and they added an extra person into the finals and that kid that was outside the bottom of the top eight, ninth place, ended up winning the whole thing. I don't know.
Speaker 2:I'll give you a little bit more. Young, it was only the top eight, though. This person was 12th, I believe. And then what happened was they went through everything. They went through everything. What happened was they went through everything. They went through everything.
Speaker 2:The guy that came up happened to be the national team coach and it was his son, and so he went up and talked to them and then they figured out there was some irregularities in the triggers when they score. And then the guy, the kid, the person that said that he goes I might have been double pushing, like, instead of giving one deduction, maybe two, maybe three. So it's just interesting because I think me and you talked about this TJ that he didn't say anything, that he didn't even know. He may have been double pushing until he talked. And then they highlighted him and he said, yeah, I may have been Only for that one, not for anybody else. I mean, it's just. And then they said it wasn't working Again. Maybe it's all true, I'm going to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but it was just an unprecedented thing that they put this person in there and then he was behind by such a big margin and then won Again. Like TJ said I don't know anything about Poomsae scoring.
Speaker 1:Who's the coach? Who's the coach I?
Speaker 2:don't want to mention my name, because I actually like the guy.
Speaker 1:Everybody will know his name. He's the coach. What's his name?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1:You don't know his name, grandmaster.
Speaker 3:Gunn.
Speaker 1:Your name is Joe and you don't know Gunn Gunn, I don't know him.
Speaker 2:So I just for me. It was just like. I guess what I'm saying is it was such a big thing that there was so many comments on these threads and then for them to put that out there and then again, just like I said, just go all the way down into this. They're looking to see if people could be construed as bullying. I'm like no one's bullying that athlete, no one's bullying that. It's just I don't know what's going on with sport in general and it just my issue is just again.
Speaker 3:My issue will always remain Like at that point the referee, like how do you I mean, even if you thought you were double pushing at that point, don't you just say something? Then, yeah, like don't we, doesn't that stop the whole situation? Right then? And there, it doesn't.
Speaker 2:It doesn't look good that. I'll tell you that right now.
Speaker 3:You know it doesn't look good at all yeah, so that's what it was with that whole. I think it's crazy. Like I said, I've never seen a statement like that and I definitely never seen a lawyer having to get involved and review something and then them posting oh he's done nothing wrong. I don't think anyone again not me again, maybe I don't know enough. I never, I don't, I'm not going that, uh, master gunn or grandmaster gunn has done any. What did anything wrong? I just think it's strange that the referee you know what I'm saying like yeah I think it's.
Speaker 3:It's just always blowing out of proportion or taking the wrong way. But also, how do you tell people they can't boo? Yeah, how do you tell people they can't have a reaction in the stands while watching a sport? Like, obviously I know there's little kids and blah, blah, blah and this is this. But like if I wish, I wish I could see the video, because I don't. I don't really know what happened. I know that apparently they took the video off usat, oh yeah they removed the video from the platform.
Speaker 2:They took the whole, yeah, the whole ring down.
Speaker 3:You're right, you're right yeah, yeah, that's strange, but see, that's strange, right?
Speaker 2:that doesn't look good, right, it doesn't look good. I mean, if you have nothing to hide, then just leave it up there. I mean, you know what's?
Speaker 3:gonna matter. It's just such a strange thing to do, like you don't like when nfl have bad games, the nba has bad games. No one removes the footage of a bad call or a bad situation. It's up there for viewing, you know yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well. I mean transparency is always good. I mean, my son just did the SafeSport certification and when you do SafeSport, it's got this, thank you. It's got this whole thing on bullying and cyber bullying and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, maybe that's where that's coming from you know, no, no, listen, that's a big part of safe sport, right nowadays, and they're definitely more self-conscious about that, as we should, right, but again, it's just, I don't know, man, I think they're just, they're, they're way over.
Speaker 1:You know, dramatizing this stuff well, how do you hold people in the stands other than encouraging them not to boo or not to say anything? How do you hold somebody who's not a member of the organization to your standards? Right, you can remove them from an arena if they're disruptive. But expressing your pleasure and displeasure unfortunately is part of sport and you've got to kind of figure that out a little unfortunately is part of sport and you've got to kind of figure that out a little bit.
Speaker 2:It is part of sport.
Speaker 1:But I think it's funny that we're spending any time at all talking about Pomsae, because I could care less, I mean boo-hoo, you think it will make it to the Olympic Games. When it makes it to the Olympic Games. I'm going to stop watching the Olympic Games. I'm going to go watch the X.
Speaker 3:Games instead.
Speaker 1:If Pomsae makes it to the Olympic games, which, let's be clear, here's the genealogical archaic, archaeological, not archaic, it is archaic trail of the genesis of Pomsae. Koreans don't have Pomsae. Koreans' Pomsse comes from karate, from okinawa. They didn't have anymore well, no, no.
Speaker 1:So let's get, let's go back to where they were. They didn't. Yeah, they came from karate. So this idea that we had pomse and it's something that matters came from karate, basically. Then you've created the next version of it, which still came from karate. Then you tried to copy point karate and tricking and all that, and that came from karate. So all of this stuff that they're doing, which has nothing to do with fighting, the techniques in them aren't realistic. They don't have any foundation in anything to do with taekwondo.
Speaker 1:They're just steaky made up, made up, you know, double knife and block. What is this holding this one's holding my coffee while I block you? I mean, come on now, like you know, poomsae's, poomsae's a joke, I mean, and anybody that doesn't say poomsae's a joke has never fought, you know. So the only thing, the only thing worse than I, just don't think we identify. I mean, obviously, I don't think we identify as a.
Speaker 3:I mean, obviously I don't think we identify as a. Unfortunately we don't identify as a fighting sport.
Speaker 1:Well, I was going to say people see more Pumse when they go into martial arts schools around the country yeah, if our worst problem is Pumse, like I guess you'd have to say this if you would, would you rather watch an Olympic match currently of fighting or an olympic pumse competition? And I guess I probably would watch pumse because at least it's over quicker, you know, and and it's it's got better technique probably. So I don't know.
Speaker 2:I mean, I I can't watch fighting I mean, listen, I, I again, I the pum state stuff, I I give these guys a lot of credit right now. These dudes can do some crazy good stuff. But I give you a point, young, where they're, where it kind of came from, and you know not that I'm talking about this as it's, you know, relative irrelevant or anything. I just thought again, the situation that happened at the national championships was unprecedented to have. You know, I guess, lawyers involved for them to put out an after-action report for everybody in the world to see it. I mean, first of all, from what I could tell, everyone that received that was not happy with it at all, didn't believe that it justified the means.
Speaker 2:So, um, yeah talking about the lawyer document yeah, I mean I was in a lawyer document, I don't know.
Speaker 3:It just seemed like it was a long post explaining like I guess they reviewed it the points, what happened with explanations, all this stuff, like that it was a lot. It was it was a lot because I think way worse things have happened in the fighting side and there were no after action reports. Yeah, I mean, they're way worse things, way more. I mean we just argue about it amongst each other and and then they kind of just they're like oh, these guys are crying or these guys are complaining, and it just dies. It's just interesting to see that I mean, and I've got, I mean they got a response, I guess. Yeah, I mean there's been a lot of things that don't get responses. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a good point yeah, but I, you know, like the worst lawyers that have ever worked for anyone. You know the kiss to devil's ring are those that work for USA Taekwondo Like. If you take that client, you know you deserve what you get. So, like the USA, taekwondo uses? What's that?
Speaker 2:You were breaking up for a second there.
Speaker 1:It's probably my beautiful. I seem like. Can you hear me now?
Speaker 3:What did you say?
Speaker 2:TJ.
Speaker 3:I was talking to one of my friends yesterday. You know anything about those enhanced games.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Do you know? Taekwondo is on the bracket as one of the sports for the enhanced games.
Speaker 2:I did not know that.
Speaker 3:Apparently, I think Taekwondo was on there. I think they're trying to get Taekwondo and boxing and even combat sports, and again, I don't know how that benefits, but I thought it was interesting to see it. That's a crazy concept, though, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what is Enhanced Games?
Speaker 3:No. So basically it's going to be a version of, I guess, the Olympic Games, where they allow some levels of sport doping.
Speaker 2:No, not some levels, any level.
Speaker 3:All levels. They're not going to drug test, I guess.
Speaker 2:And they're giving millions of dollars away, a lot of money. So for the wrestlers, or for the Olympic lifters, or for the sprinters, do as much as you want and let's see who the best, best, best person is.
Speaker 3:Crazy. How can you do that? I think it's crazy. The concept is crazy. I mean I'm going to watch, obviously, but the concept is crazy. They're probably going to make $1 billion. It's going to be like watching superhero athletes perform. You know what I mean. They're going to be faster and I think maybe, as an audience, you're drawn to it. If someone's doing a long jump and they're jumping three feet further than the norm, you're like I gotta tune in and watch this. You know what I mean or lifting weights.
Speaker 2:If the world record is 220 snatch and guys doing 280, you're like, what? Like? How is that possible?
Speaker 3:so yeah, yeah, I think there's a whole. There's a whole community of people who like almost because you think anything gets kind of boring for a while, right, no, world records are really broken too deeply into it. Every now and then there's something that changes by a little bit, but these numbers are gonna blow things out of the water. Obviously there'll be an asterisk next to it and it'll be like in these games, but like then that's gonna become the same thing, right, you're gonna get crazy jumps and leaps and I just wonder how it affects the, the lower level high school, college athlete development path line pathway and all that stuff.
Speaker 2:Well, let me tell you, if this is successful, let me tell you what it's going to do. It's going to destroy the olympics. You know why? Because people are going to say why should I go the olympic route and virtually make no money and I can go to the hands games and make a million dollars? It's's no different than boxing. Boxing used to be huge, amateur boxing used to be huge in America. Now not so big. Why? Because people say why should I go all the way through to the Olympics and not make anything when I can, 18 years old, I can go straight start fighting professional.
Speaker 2:That's how people think. They think with money. I mean that that's that's what will happen for, and I'm talking the sports that it'll help, like um, like weightlifting, like uh jumping, like sprinting, like swimming, like any of those things where people can dope, and it are like cycling, endurance type sports. Maybe it doesn't work in taekwondo, it will work in judo, it will work in wrestling. You watch, if those games are successful, they could ruin because the feats that they're going to be doing are going to just surpass the Olympians by so much and the money will be so big. It will be such a draw that it could backfire. People might say look at these freaks, look at them getting injured, look at them dying, I don't know Pretty maturely again.
Speaker 2:I think there's more chance to succeed than fail.
Speaker 3:That part. I think people are entertained by what's entertaining. You know what I mean? I don't really think. I think we're sports people and, like we, like you know, I know a lot of facts and a lot of history on all the sports and how it got there. But most people don't. Most people click on their phones. They want to see someone jump far, do a backflip or do some crazy stuff and they're they're drawn to that and they're like, oh, this guy's gonna be on this this event next week. You know, that's how they kind of get it. I think it's a it's a crazy bold move. I just I guess I wonder how the legality they had to go through to make something like that.
Speaker 1:There isn't. You don't need any. You don't need any.
Speaker 3:There's no rules for your organization.
Speaker 1:If you don't participate in the Olympic movement or if you don't participate in a professional league that has rules for drugging and doping, you don't have to worry about it. So I mean, let's take this to the next logical conclusion. So you decide if you're doing this redheaded stepchild version of Taekwondo that everybody's doing. Now you realize that taller guys who are more flexible yield better. So when your child is 12, you put extensions on your leg, you take them to China and they'll cut your leg. And then they put these bone graft things that spread your legs. So you get longer and taller, so you take a kid.
Speaker 3:You think people are doing that for Taekwondo?
Speaker 1:Yeah, why not, let's do it for Taekwondo. So now we're going to take these guys, these little skinny whatever kind of athletes, and make them taller. So now you got seven foot twelve athletes that are skinny, they've been genetically modified and while we're at it, let's change the composition of their flexibility and then let's give them, um, performance enhancing drugs so that they can be, uh, not smarter, but certainly stronger. So now you got, you know, that's the next level. So is that what you want to see?
Speaker 3:I guess I don't know. That's like the Happy Gilmore 2 movie Great movie. By the way, if you guys haven't watched Happy Gilmore 2 and you watched the first one, do yourself a favor, watch the second one. It's amazing. I thought it was awesome, but a little spoiler alert if you guys haven't watched it. Fast forward through this part. They removed some little bone in the guy's back so it helped them drive the ball like so much further because they could twist all the way back here and then drive the ball like extra 300 yards over the total. So it was a kind of cool thing. But it's the same thing, kind of enhancing for a sport. There's just kind of a. You know, made me think about that when you said that.
Speaker 2:Well, actually that was. There was, I think, a little undertone shot at the new golf, the live golf, how they've changed the golf versus the traditional golf, and it was kind of like that. But, young, it was funny when you posted your Olympic Day thing on social media the other day and so I pushed it and I was watching with Camila. I was like Camila, look at Mr Perez, look at him, you know, look at here, look, I go look at him. He's going to cry. He's understanding. He's like she's like laughing watching, cause I was making fun of you. But then she's like, oh my God, the ring is so big, how come they get to fight in that giant ring? Now we get a little set of rings. She couldn't believe how big the ring was and because she had never seen it right. And I'm like, yeah, those things were big back in the day, boy that must be, that must be an amazing moment, though.
Speaker 3:I think when I grew, when I was growing up, that was the the epitome of like success. You wanted to be on the metal stand first place so you can hear your anthem being played. Like that moment. I watched it too. That moment has to be like, so special. You know what? I mean, those are those are the dreams that we had as kids. You know we I wanted to be on that first place podium and watching the flag raise and hearing the anthem in front of all those people is like gotta be sick.
Speaker 1:Well, that's why you you know, you always when we talked about this last week.
Speaker 1:You always have to be humble because at the end of the day you know we've all been to that dance, we know how hard it is and we know what degree of luck and preparation is involved. So you can prepare for as long as you want and then on that particular day you just don't have a great performance, or somebody has a better performance, or you get hurt. So I'm always I always take that in a grain of salt. But there was a point where, um, I couldn't watch the medal ceremony for like two years. I was like on a plane, I was going somewhere and they start playing the medal ceremony for somebody else.
Speaker 1:I cannot start crying because, like I couldn't, you know, you start remembering all the things and the people that helped you and all that sort of stuff. Um, but it was. You know, it was interesting. You look out into the stands and you see your friends. I saw coach moreno and then you see your friends.
Speaker 1:I saw Coach Moreno and then you see a couple of different looks on people's faces, and I always like to talk about this because it kind of tells you a little bit about people. So when you win, there are people that look at you and they're so happy for you you can see it in their face. Then there are other people who look at you and they're looking at you like, oh, not him, right, because it's not them, or you're, you're the last disaster of a nightmare they want and I won't mention who's, who's whose face. I saw that on who's still I know to this day, I know.
Speaker 1:And then there was one guy who you know and coach moreno was on the, on the positive side, of course, but there was a guy who had nothing but love in his heart and that was Daesung Lee. Like Daesung Lee, I looked out at him and you, that guy was so happy because he had spent so many years trying to get me to be a regular human being and keep me out of trouble and not let me be who I was and try to teach me about the culture of Taekwondo the way he saw it. But when I won, this guy man, nothing but pure joy in his heart, like and that was the one thing you know, you can say about daesung was he, was he truly loved the sport, loved the people that did he loved taekwondo, right.
Speaker 2:So you know it's an interesting, yeah, it's an interesting conversation I like how you mentioned like you never know what could happen on that day, blah, blah, blah blah. I heard TJ. You know who Marcus Spears is. You know who Marcus Spears is? He played for the Cowboys.
Speaker 2:He's a high-end man for the Cowboys but he's not my first pick and his son right now is the number one basketball recruit in the country. He's like 6'3", 6'6". I'm sorry, he's a football player, but his son's a basketball player and he said something really cool today. To kind of remind you of what you just said, young. He said I always, you know, I'm so thankful for my son, I'm so proud of what he's doing, me and his mom. He's like. But I told him it's only rented, it's not owned, so you gotta put in the work every day.
Speaker 2:When he said such a good little statement. Like you know, like we, we go to so many events right now and this, this victory or success, is so short lived, it's not owned. You know what I mean, you, you, it's, it's, it's rented, because next time out you get scraped, you know. Or vice versa, you know, your, your loss or your demoralizing performance could change, you know. So, I really liked that. I'm going to use that for now. I like that one. That's a great saying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Because like you know, you got to remember, like, if you're fortunate enough like we all have been at some point to be the best at something somewhere, whether it's nationally, internationally or, you know, in the world, then that lasts for that moment. And then you know two weeks later, a month later, a year later, two years later, four years later, it's somebody else, unless it's you again, and that's hard for it to be used. So just you know, you can say I was the best at this thing for this period of time and I can't, and that's why you should handle it well, in other words, be generous, handle it well, help people see people correctly. You know, there was a guy that well, you knew this because you were around.
Speaker 1:There was a guy that walked into the room they had just won the world championships, three of them first time ever in the history of our sport from the United States. And then the guy walks into the cafeteria and goes world champion in the room and I, I like the guy, but when I heard that, I was like what a dick, what a douchebag. Like you know, where are you now, by the way? Um, what you're not that is an olympic champion. I know that, and so it might be nice that you yeah, world champion was in the room. That was the day. That was weird, but that was the culture of that individual, that was the culture of that family and that was the culture. That's the thing that came back to bite them. Because the one thing that is absolutely true treat people nicely and well on the way up, because you're going to be on the way down. You're going to remember how you treated them on the way up, my friend. So just be generous.
Speaker 3:So you know it's a hard I know, I know, I know you got. I know, coach, I know you know my story too. It's the same thing for me. I think that was the biggest thing no-transcript that, like all the obstacles, actually went into it, all the ups and the downs. I mean coach reynolds knows, I mean we went through two knee surgeries before getting to the olympic games in 2012, when I was out there with them. You know it was like a shaky ground.
Speaker 1:I was lucky enough to have people around me, you know like and I say this all the time because we we met you way back way when we did those original ID camps and you were a great athlete with a lot of speed, a lot of ability, a lot of knowledge and then great coaches on the way up. And then the things that you can't control. You can control your body, you can control your athleticism, you can control your strength, you can control your durability, you can control your mental perseverance, determination, patience but the things you can't control to a great degree. If you control all the rest of that and you get injured, you can't control that. So like that's where humble comes in, because at any moment you can have an injury that prevents you from being the person you want to be.
Speaker 1:Dr Stephen Capen is a perfect example, arguably one of the better what lightweights ever in the sport knowledge wise, ability wise hurt his knees and got to a place where, right before the Olympic games where he should have won, he was better than the guy that went and more knowledgeable and better athlete. He was told not to go because he would. They wouldn't let him win because of his knees and he's still laments about it. But he was, he was tall, he was flexible, he was fast but, the most important part, he had trained with Kim Sayuk, so he was good, um, but anyway, you know, like he, the list of my friends around me who have had those moments where they haven't been able to realize their dream because of injury or circumstance and stuff like that is long. So you know, just like, go through life, yeah, go through life being humble, like there's this guy that just died.
Speaker 1:I didn't realize who he was and then he was, um, originally supposed to be the lead singer in led zeppelin. They went to him and I know it's a different thing and he, they, they, they said, hey, we want you to do this, and he said, no, let this other guy do it, who ended up being robert plant. Then, a second time, deep purple comes to him, which is another huge rock band, and ask him to be the lead singer, and he says, no, let this other guy do it, ian Gillian. And so he goes through his entire life being arguably and in the words of others, one of the best singers, soulful and everything. So I looked up all this stuff now, cause he just passed away. But at each moment where he was given the opportunity, he chose a different path, right? So he was like, ah, you know, no, I'm going to do this other thing. So he had a good career, he produced a bunch of people, yeah, but like, think about it, I don't know about that guy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. Think about it. You're given an opportunity. Somebody comes to you and they say, hey we got this band.
Speaker 2:We want you to be in.
Speaker 1:We want you to be in this band. It's Menudo, right, and you're going to be the first non-Puerto Rican in Menudo, right? Sounds like your wand, he fell out, so and you go. No, I'm good man, I'm going to stay over here, I'm going to go join the army. And you could have been in Menudo, you, the army, and you could have been in menudo. You could have been the lead singer in menudo. Come, come, come, come, come, come. Anyway, I know I see you're laughing, but I could. I was gonna say boys to men, but then that would have been, I think, slightly racist, maybe slightly, and I didn't, you know, I don't want to get canceled I want to take a boy's limit over menudo.
Speaker 3:Is that a real?
Speaker 1:do you remember?
Speaker 2:menudo. Do you remember menudo? Isn't that like?
Speaker 3:that isn that. What does that mean? Isn't that like pig intestines or something like?
Speaker 1:that, no Menudo is a soup, it's a soup.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but there is a group, the rule in Menudo was.
Speaker 1:you could be in Menudo until you were 15. And then, after 15, and you know who one of the famous Menudo guys was. Name the guy that is currently a guy Became famous afterwards Ricky Martin. Yeah, he was in Menudo. So TJ you could have been in Menudo.
Speaker 3:Could have been. I chose to stick around and hang out with you guys for a bit.
Speaker 2:Hey, change subjects. A little bit of a personal note and I don't know if you know TJ, this is a little sad is one of my former athletes who actually won the youth Olympic games gold medal, um Kendall Yelt. Her father passed away last week and it's uh, you know.
Speaker 2:I'm sure they don't listen to our podcast, but there's a lot of people that that do listen to our podcast. They will know who Kendall is. Kendall came from an ATA background. She's from Kentucky and, um, her father and mother brought her to peak performance, you know, and we coached her all over the place and she ended up winning a gold medal at the Olympic Games, the Youth Olympic Games, the first one ever for the United States and actually, I think, the only one. Has anybody else won a gold medal for the Youth Olympic Games? Tj? I don't think so.
Speaker 3:I don't think gold.
Speaker 2:Not gold, but anyway.
Speaker 3:What about the?
Speaker 2:Anastasia get one? Oh, she sure did. No, Anastasia got silver. I believe she got silver Anyway, regardless. Well, thoughts and prayers going out to that family for sure, hey TJ on a slightly other note.
Speaker 1:I see you made a little request of me in the chat. Is that what you want me to do? Would you like me to, and? Is that balcony? Is that what you want me to do? Would you like me to, and? Is that balcony? Is that like a black balcony? What does that stand for?
Speaker 2:You made a little request for me in the chat.
Speaker 1:Would you like me to do?
Speaker 2:that Is that what you're hoping for?
Speaker 1:Is that a private video you want me to send later?
Speaker 3:You can send it later. It's a beach balcony.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm up, I'm a little high up in the world, so I'm a little high up in the world, so nobody will see me it looks beautiful, it looks beautiful.
Speaker 2:Hey, I know you don't know a whole lot about Young, but let's talk about this under-21 real fast. I got the list of the athletes. I can go through it. We can kind of maybe make some selections. So this weekend we have an Olympic weight category tournament, young. We have four males and four females. United united states only qualified two men dj, and yeah, yeah, 68 and 80 and then 60 and 49 is 57. Did you get two or?
Speaker 3:two, two, two, two. And the reason that's important, I think, because if it goes through the way it's set up right now, that person that gets the gold medal at the Olympic Games will go directly to the Olympics, right? I mean at the Pan Am Games, pan Am Games.
Speaker 2:Not this one. So this if you win a gold medal here in the under-22, you get to go to the Pan Am Games. So your country could possibly have two people, but you get to go direct. If you win the Pan Am Games the year before the Olympics, theoretically supposedly the Patu president has said that's going to be a direct entry into the Olympic Games. I don't know if it's doable, I don't know if it's true. I've heard some different things, but right now, if you win the Pan Am Games, you go to the Olympic Games. That's what's been said.
Speaker 2:And then what they do to the continental qualifiers. You only get one person qualified, one person before you get two first and second. So it's very controversial. We're going to see, but this is part of that system. I think something else interesting enough is that I'm sad that this country didn't qualify enough people. They didn't qualify every division they should have. I think you almost had to. You almost had to, but I don't think we took it serious. It was individually funded and again, another misstep by the organization, in my opinion. We can talk about that later.
Speaker 1:But let's talk about-. So who are the two men?
Speaker 2:There's a 68, which is my athlete, michael Rodriguez. Oh, nice and well, yes, and then 80, cameron was Cameron's last name.
Speaker 3:I guess, I guess, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And then for women, there's a 49, which is Maya Mata and a 57, which is Montana Miller. I don't know the M&M girls.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you could have took all four Olympic divisions, basically per country. You could have had one for 49, 57, you know all the girls to 67, and then plus 67. I guess my thing is the goal would have been to get as many people there as possible, if this even comes to fruition. I know a lot of other countries took it a little serious.
Speaker 1:So what happens if, let's say, hypothetically, these two men win? Where do they go next?
Speaker 3:They go to the actual Pan Am Games.
Speaker 1:So what is this event called?
Speaker 3:This is the Under-21 Pan Am Games.
Speaker 1:Oh, Under-21 Pan Am Games.
Speaker 3:Multisport Multisport.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a multisport game. So, what if these?
Speaker 1:two guys go to the actual Pan Am Games and then win. What happens next? Theoretically, they go to the Olympics. Does that mean that nobody else from the US men's division gets to go?
Speaker 2:Great question Where's?
Speaker 1:CJ in the mix. Why is his name not on this list?
Speaker 3:Because he's over 21.
Speaker 1:He can't go through this system. He's over 21.
Speaker 3:Right, you have to be under 21 to qualify for the juniors?
Speaker 3:Oh, interesting, but we'll still get to send for the Pan Am Games qualification. We'll still get to send a full team to qualify. So potentially you'll have two USA people in 68 and two in 80. But the other divisions there will only be one. But most of these other countries are going to show up to that event. If it goes the way that you know, it's been set with multiple people in the same division, so they'll have a little bit more of a chance of people qualifying that spot, and I would, I would guess, I would guess it'll be. If that's the case and that's the route they go, it'll be by name, correct, like the person that wins that Pan Am Games by name will qualify for the Olympic Games.
Speaker 1:It's got to be by name I mean they've done that before.
Speaker 2:Imagine that again, hypothetically, hypothetically. This kid Cameron goes and wins the Pan Am Games because somebody gets hurt, he has a great day, he develops in two years and then someone like CJ's out.
Speaker 1:So I think there's a problem with the quality, you know, just to be speaking. There's a problem with the qualification procedure. If that were the states, because, um, if you have a, if you had a, well, it may not be, but let's, let's look at it this way if you had a qualification procedure that was disenfranchising a particular group of athletes based on age or anything, else they didn't do this.
Speaker 3:It wasn't the organization, though. No, what I'm saying, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1:It would matter. The question becomes if you said worldwide, whatever, and they find themselves in ICAST, meaning International Court of Arbitration, and they find themselves in ICAS, meaning International Court of Arbitration. Somebody makes the argument. They said I did not have an opportunity to qualify for the Olympics because it became an age-based discrimination. Under 21 were given preferential treatment and I couldn't qualify because they took this under 21. It sounds like they protected themselves because all they get is a birth at a trials. You know what I mean?
Speaker 2:Yes, like they protected themselves, because all they get is a birth at a trials. You know what I mean. Yes, yeah, there's still a regular Pan American Games qualification event, so you would have a chance. And then the games yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you've got the Pan Am under 21, pan Am multi-sport games, you've got the Pan Am qualifier for the Olympics regional qualifier, and then you've got the Pan Am games no, the Olympics regional qualifier.
Speaker 3:And then you got the Pan Am Games no, you'll have the under 21. Then you'll have the Pan Am qualification for the Pan Am Games, and then you'll have the Pan Am Games.
Speaker 1:What is that?
Speaker 3:What you have to qualify. It's like the normal process, like you send a team to qualify for the Pan Am Games.
Speaker 1:How is that normal? There's no direct to the games. There was never a bit. There was never. That's changed, then, because Pan Am Games were 45 countries. Is that no longer the case?
Speaker 2:No, no no.
Speaker 1:It's called. It's called Pan Am Games, yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, since 2009. Wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, long time. That's all I've known.
Speaker 2:It's not easy Because all the games are too big now. They can't just let everybody in. So that was the top 16. Anyway, let's go through this, let's run through this list of athletes. So let's start with the women 49. I'm going to give you the countries by order their ranking 49,. You have Brazil, usa, mexico, paraguay, canada, guatemala, colombia and Uruguay. So obviously there's going to be a quarterfinal matchup between I'm sorry, semifinal matchup between USA and Mexico. That's with Maya, and you know there's. I think if I had to guess, I would think that one, two or three of those would win the gold medal Brazil, usa or Mexico, I don't know if you know much about them.
Speaker 3:I was able to coach at a couple of those games. I mean for me. Obviously I would love to see Maya get through that bracket. I think she's on a side with I'm trying to look at it right now it's opening. She's on the Mexico side. That I think she's on a side with I'm trying to look at it right now it's opening. She's on the Mexico side. That'll be a match. You'll have to fight Colombia first. I don't remember I think we fought a Colombian girl, I can't remember and then, obviously, you got Brazil from the top and it's number one. Right, you have to win. Yeah, it's only the winner of it. Yeah, yeah, me personally, I'm pulling for number two, which is Maya Amada. In that situation, I know she's had some good. I think she's fought most of these girls before. But it'll be interesting to see because I think those divisions, as that process went on, got a little tough. As those three tournaments went on, it got a little tough. So what do you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think. I mean, if I had to pick one, I would pick Maya. I do think that the Brazilian girl, Camille, is not. She's had some really good turns. To be honest, the last couple have been a little rough for her. She's ranked number one, right? Yeah, she is ranked number one.
Speaker 2:She's got to be doing pretty well, that would be in the finals. That would be in the finals, let's see. I think 57 is a little interesting because you got number one, mexico, two, brazil, three, usa, paraguay, peru, panama and Puerto Rico. And I'm telling you what Puerto Rico, puerto Rico. But the Mexican girl was undefeated in that series. She didn't lose to anybody. I was always so shocked by her.
Speaker 3:You might, grandmaster, you might like her, because for me she was a little bit more old school, a lot of back leg stuff, a lot of motion movement stuff. I think she put those girls in a I don't know. They all looked a little confused when they were in front of her and I think she had a couple close rounds, but definitely dominant in that 57 division throughout that series. So I think she's going to be tough to declass and I think at the bottom you have Brazil at the other side too.
Speaker 2:Again, I didn't watch the 57 girls division. If you know much about it, yeah, I I. If I had to pick right now, I'd pick the mexican girl. Just based on what she did to all them heads up. Montana miller has a lot of talent, um, and she has these moments where I think she's really successful, and other times I'm just kind of yikes. I'm not sure what happened. So if I had to pick, I would pick the mexican girl yeah, yeah, definitely she has the size.
Speaker 3:I mean montana has a size for that debate. I think she's like long if I. But like I said, that mexican girl watching her through the through that series was kind of it was kind of cool because I mean she was doing some stuff and like being consistent and calm throughout all those matches, you know. So it's definitely interesting.
Speaker 2:Definitely, on that side, I think it's heavy for mexico it's crazy, uh, so in 67 you have ecuador, mexico, canada, argentina, brazil, honduras, bolivia and cuba. I know I sound like a front runner right now, but the ecuador girl's not bad at all. Not bad at all. I was really impressed with her, um, and I didn't know much about her, but one other coach that I worked with in brazil was telling me about her, so we were looking at our matches. I'm like geez, where did this girl come from? So, um, she's, she's not bad. I see cuba in there.
Speaker 3:I didn't, I didn't watch, I was about to say I was about to say, every time I see, every time I see cuba on the on the brackets, I'm always interested because those that you know, I know they don't come out that often, but they come up for events like this kind of like the, the pathways to the olympic games and stuff, so they always show with some interesting athletes. You know what I mean some interesting athletes, some wild card athletes. And I mean she's sitting at number, she's at the bottom number, she's number eight, so she'll fight. She'll fight number one first. So yes, we've seen that story before. Sometimes it's yeah, sometimes it's tough matches, early right yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3:So that's right, that's right wild card number eight front runner I again. I didn't watch 67, so I pulled for Cuba.
Speaker 2:I'm going to go to. Plus 67 is going to be our girl, Ava Suni.
Speaker 3:She's done well in that division, consistently at that weight. Who's?
Speaker 1:she competing for Haiti, so that got all sorted out, or is the USAT going to do its usual?
Speaker 2:Nah, it's all sorted out now. They tried, they took their shot. I think she's going to be in the final with Mexico or Cuba. I think Mexico fights on the senior national team for Mexico and they've had a couple battles and Ava's gotten the better of her, which always makes it tough, maybe it's three, Coach.
Speaker 3:I'm looking at the bracket. I don't know if it's miswritten, but there's another USA girl. Look at number seven.
Speaker 2:I see it right there, yeah.
Speaker 3:I didn't see her in the picture. Maybe I did see her and I thought it was a Poomsae girl.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think she did get in, but that's weird because they have nine people instead of eight. That's strange.
Speaker 3:They do have nine. Yeah, that's weird.
Speaker 2:Huh yeah, but we're going to pick.
Speaker 1:I'm going with that Maybe it's the US poomsae thing. All over again, they moved up to number nine.
Speaker 2:No that's a weird one. Yeah, 58 is going to be nasty. 58 is going to be nasty. 58 is going to be nasty.
Speaker 3:I'm sad we don't have a 58. I'm just going to go out there and let them say that, listen, we should have a 58 in that mix. We have too much young talent under 21 at 58 to not have a 58 in this process.
Speaker 1:How did they qualify for this?
Speaker 2:There was a series Go ahead. You got it yeah, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 3:No, no, you got it. I'm looking for this other thing. Go ahead.
Speaker 2:They had a series of tournaments in the Patu and they had a ranking. They had four of them. You had to compete First, they were supposed to have five, et cetera, and so that's how they have their ranking and their seating right now. So 58 is nasty. Mexico, colombia, chile, paraguay, brazil, argentina, peru and Ecuador, all are good. The Mexican boy is very good, the Colombian boy is good. Hey, chile is nasty. Our Brazil boy is good. That's the division to watch. That's the division to watch. That's the division watching 58.
Speaker 2:So the hard part about that is, like my, our brazil kid will have to fight carlos cortez in the in the semis, and then you're probably gonna have colombia and chile fighting the other semi-finals. So, dude, that's a good one.
Speaker 3:I, I, if we can, uh yeah, it's unfortunate like we got a lot of talent there. Should one of our 58 should be in there for sure.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, I know it was self-funded none of our 58s are going to beat these guys right now. I I really don't believe and that's no shot I'm just telling you these guys are who, which one's going to be cortez, which one's going to be. You know, these guys don't know. I don't see it. I don't see what the difference is.
Speaker 3:That Cortez kid. He's the kid that won the Cadet World Championships multiple times, or something like that, his brother or something.
Speaker 2:His brother won two. I don't know if he won one, his brother won two.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he's good too. I'm excited. I'm excited, it's Friday morning, correct.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's tomorrow morning 8 o'clock our time.
Speaker 3:Oh, it's happening now Should we just hop on a Live thing?
Speaker 1:Watch it live? Yeah, when is it? What time?
Speaker 3:It's 8 am for us. I don't know what time that is for you. 8 am for you is like 2 o'clock.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll watch it if you send me a note yeah right.
Speaker 1:Should we do it?
Speaker 3:Yeah, watch it from my bed, it'll be a good bedtime.
Speaker 1:It'll be a good bedtime. I like watching Olympic-style taekwondo. It puts me to sleep Like I go. I hit that.
Speaker 3:Usually I can watch about a round then.
Speaker 1:I go right to bed. You're gonna be converted one day. It's okay, I'll keep working. Yeah, I'm gonna.
Speaker 3:There's something to be watched yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna coach 68 68.
Speaker 2:It's our kid, michael. I mean michael is obviously the front runner. I mean this is his tournament to, to, to lose. I mean he shouldn't lose, he should win first place. Um, the semi-final on the other side is going to be brazil and chile. Our brazil kid is nasty, but the Chile kid is super smart and very technical. So, man, just a match I got to see. But there's a dark horse in there. He's from Panama. His name is Ian Romero. He's number five. So four or five fighting the quarterfinal and then the winner fights Michael. That Romero. He lives and trains in Mexico. Michael knows him very well. The kid's tough, the kid's strong, he's big. He's not as smart as Michael, but he's a gamer. So it's going to be an interesting you know, semifinal fight for him. But that final it's going to be a pretty high level. I'm going to think, for some reason.
Speaker 3:I think the Chilean kicker who's in the finals?
Speaker 2:Michael and Chile.
Speaker 3:You know, that's kind of a matchup that's become like the classic matchup of this under-21 series. They've had some good fights back and forth throughout this series. You know, Definitely. I don't know, I'm always excited about 68.
Speaker 2:But let me preface this I'm telling you the Brazil boy is nasty dude. His legs are like he's a tough dude. Tough, tough kid, oh my God.
Speaker 3:We almost made it out alive Look at that, not a Bon Crescent baby.
Speaker 1:You know this song right.
Speaker 3:Of course, this is how bored he gets when we talk Taekwondo. This is how bored he gets when we talk Taekwondo he just loses his mind.
Speaker 1:All right, all right, I apologize. I'll stop now.
Speaker 3:We were so close, it was so close.
Speaker 1:Go ahead. Let me stop the share, all right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that final will be good. Share, I think that final will be good. Who fights on the first day? Is it Feather first day? 58-68. Oh my god, both days, both good. It was his first day Starting at 8am. It's on Pan Am Sports, right? Yeah, I'll be here. I'll be here.
Speaker 1:I wonder if we got to pay rights on that, now that I just played that.
Speaker 2:Oh man, cameron fighting with my boy sorry, he's got a tough draw. So in 80 is our guy Brazil. He's an Olympian, he's really good, I mean he's a man. So he's going to fight USA first match. I think he should win pretty easily.
Speaker 1:The Brazilian or the USA kid.
Speaker 2:No, the Brazil kid should win the whole thing. I mean, he's legit. Good, he's the guy that fights with CJ and BCJ multiple times in Korea. He's legit, so I see him doing pretty well there.
Speaker 3:I mean, I don't know what you think, tj, but no I'm honestly, I think he runs away with that division, like, let's be honest.
Speaker 3:I mean like, like you said I think it's the what you just said about michael too, in 68 this is his division to go win um yeah you know he's, and he's been very even the time, he's been very professional throughout the whole, uh, the series, the ones that I watched, and I think he's been very professional throughout the whole series, the ones that I watched and I think he's had some tough spots, tough matches, just because of and I give it, it's hard to go from Olympic Games and qualifying back to an under-21 system, and he still did it, I think, unbroken. And so this is his tournament to go in and it's interesting that opens up the door again back to this whole thing potentially having two 80s at the pan am games yeah, we probably probably will, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, you got, they got some big guys over there.
Speaker 3:They got some big guys, a lot of talent. You know what I mean and I think, oddly enough, every time I see the room, I see the people that train with the, the groups, consistently 80s an interesting spot because you got the 87s, you got the 80, 80s, you got the. There's a lot of people and all those boys are big and long.
Speaker 2:What if Brazil sent Nachino in 74? And he's fighting 74 and he just says you know what? I'll go qualify at 80. And now we got Nachino. Dude, that would be nasty, It'd be interesting.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it'd be interesting. A lot of movement.
Speaker 2:I can't open, though I can't get the heavyweight open.
Speaker 3:I don't know why it won't slide over my phone, me neither listen, it's going to be a good event.
Speaker 2:I'm excited about the initiative. I'm excited about the under 21 world championships because you get all these unknown variables of these young kids and I think it's going to be really awesome to see them fight. But 1568 are going to be nasty the first day. I think it's going to be good 8 am tomorrow morning.
Speaker 1:I think I like this idea right of creating pathways for the youngers to get the experience, although I'm not going to say that 21 is younger, like I think 21 is way too old. Like I think 18 and under, maybe 17 and under, like you know, by the time you're 18, um, you're, you're already in the mix, right, like it is what it is. And and the age of the it'd be interesting. You guys know this better than I do. Our, with the exception of Coach Moreno. Our age how old were you at the games? Tj, 26. 26. I was 32. I was supposed to be 28, had I gone four years earlier. Coach Moreno was like 12. And then the second games, he was 16. And he couldn't drive or drink, or certainly not do any of those two things at the same time.
Speaker 3:But Under 21 is a weird number. I think you're right because, like I said, when we were talking about it starting last episode, the under 24, it was 24 was considered young then, like you, hadn't made the national team by 24. Yeah, that's where it started. I think now it's supposed to be way lower. But 21 it kind of goes against the whole thing, because 21 they're starting to say people are getting towards their last olympic cycle, right, like the end is 21, 22 and really the rollovers have it's happening quick. You're seeing a lot of success, maybe from the smaller divisions too, but um, but also a lot of success earlier on, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I wonder when the physical? So you know we always talk about this and it's a conversation for another day, maybe but the athletic and the intellectual sport IQ curve, right. So a good coach maximizes the time that your social and your sport IQ meet along with your athletic curve, Because most of us we have an athletic curve and that's what I'm going to ask the question about. But our sport IQ continues to grow, right. So your sport IQ goes like this. And this is way back from when we started the coaching program for USA Taekwondo Thank you, still waiting for that basket to say thank you for that. When we we created it, the idea was to get those two things to meet sooner by having good coaches coach them so that they would. So what, in your humble opinion and experience opinions, what is the athletic peak of a taekwondo athlete, when? What is that? From what age to what age?
Speaker 2:I think it depends on different weight categories because obviously heavyweight you can peak a lot later because you can mature physically. I think 82. But I think for 68 and 58, I'm just talking about Olympic weight categories. I'm going to say physical peak just because Let me take into consideration how much these guys fight now Young, if I just said it, naturally I'd say oh, 22. Somewhere as a little mature man. But nowadays these guys compete so much, I'm going to say 18 to 20.
Speaker 2:Physical peak and after that they have too many their knees, their ankles, their arms, their knicks up. That's crazy.
Speaker 1:Way up and down.
Speaker 2:I know that's pretty early, but I'm just that's what I feel, tj what do you think?
Speaker 3:I'm somewhere close to him. 20's an eye-opener to me because I know he's not wrong and I get exactly where he's coming from. But I think I would hope to, I would say, physical peak when you're taking accountability, because it's the competition and everything I think, how kids still have to learn to train and learn to develop and they start their strength and conditioning programs and all that stuff. I still say about 22, 23. Really, somewhere in there. Yeah, just because I think after that point like 24s, from what it looks like, that turnover rate of how many kids were getting into the system from these other countries. And some of these other countries' pools are huge. I think most of their guys are, I think they're big guys, the ones we like. Oh, that's the man right now.
Speaker 1:They're 23, 24 and then they're gone. Wow, I like I guess, like the system tells it. Right, the system will tell you what it is, because I don't think I peaked. I think I peaked 27, 26, and then it was way later, yeah, and then I obviously peaked at 32. But I think athletically 26, 27, I was crazy, fast, crazy, whatever, and then I was able to maintain it to 32.
Speaker 3:Athletic development like as far as like. What about Steven?
Speaker 1:Lopez. Not to bring up the dead, but when do you think Steven peaked? Not to bring up the dead, but when do you?
Speaker 2:think Steven peaked. I don't know Steven's age at the time, but I would go by Olympic cycle. But we'll talk about it. But, TJ, don't forget your question because I know where you're going and I would. I like that. I think so.
Speaker 2:For example, for me Steven peaked in 2004, 2004,. Steven just was, and he had gone up weight category. Right, he went from 68 to 80. He went to the welterweight division. When did you peak? He was faster. When did you peak? When did I peak? You know what I'm going to say. I peaked after my Olympic games. I think I was like I'm going to go back. I quit in 92 after my Olympic games. I think I was like I'm going to go back. I quit in 92 after my second games and I remember, you know, again I was losing weight, so I wasn't healthy. But I remember in like 95, going to like the Olympic Festival. I remember doing dude. I could fight anybody. I just felt strong, fast, I could take shots, I could give shots. I just felt strong, fast, I could take shots, I could give shots. I just that was probably so if I was in 95, I was, let's see, I was 20 at the last Olympic Games, so 24, 25. I don't think I peaked at 32.
Speaker 1:I think I peaked at 30. I could have fought the world championships the following year in Madison Square Garden. I don't think I peaked at 30. I could have fought the world championships in the following year in Madison Square Garden. I don't think I peaked physically. I didn't feel like I peaked at 32. I think I peaked later, like 30, but I was training, and that's what I asked the question for, because I think it's how you train, what you train, and then there's just a physical diminishment. That's why the Lopez thing and you are interesting studies, because you had a 12-year cycle of olympic level competition, right like 88 through 2000, right, tj. When do you think you peaked when? What was your when you? What was your last games and how old were you?
Speaker 3:well, my only games. Last games was 2012 and how old 26 years old.
Speaker 1:And how did you feel?
Speaker 3:I felt and it's funny, I think that was my peaking point for the buildup to the event, to the follow-up. I think a few things. I think right after 2012, the game started to change a little bit and it was a whole nother learning curve when we go back to the height and length and all that stuff and all that good stuff. But I think then I'll say say 2012, and I think I had a really good feeling about the game and everything around 2015 when we went to that world championship. I ended up I ended up losing the quarterfinals to servette, but I think that that day was kind of um yeah, I know that day was kind of a I I felt good that day.
Speaker 3:I felt I felt strong that day. I I don't even think the like I said. I think that was it. I saw I was think that was it.
Speaker 1:I mean it's hard to judge yourself a performance against a guy like that, because that guy's just nuts Nah.
Speaker 3:I think he was great. I think he was good. I think we were a good matchup. I think both of us stood in the middle and were willing to exchange with each other. I got unlucky in some of the exchanges. He had the ability to spin like no other and then, with the rewards of all the bonus points and the little toe touches, it's kind of changed the game for him in a good way and he was brave enough to continue to fight that way. That was the thing that made him special. That was James Viasana man.
Speaker 1:That was James Viasana. Like he just did stuff that other people were unwilling to think, to try to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I think that's an interesting conversation as far as that you guys have that so young, like a 20, like I think about soccer, right, or I think about, well, football is different because the amount of contact right, and I think that's why this is an interesting conversation, because these days, with the amount of dude, this is like a little hoodlum bird that looks like he got roughed up in a some sort of bar fight he's about to turn his camera off you guys can see that when he's yet the bird we absolutely cannot see that let me go closer.
Speaker 1:He'll probably run away when I go, but I want you to sit. Oh, he left he got into a fight with a hawaiian bird and got his ass beat.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but um I guess, my, I guess what I was gonna say real quick was about, um, when you talk about when did you peak athletic wise? I don't think it's dude. I'm going to say most of these kids aren't peaking athleticism wise. I don't think the game condones them having to peak athleticism wise.
Speaker 1:I don't think it's as important.
Speaker 3:I think I had to peak because I was fighting men, of men who are strong and fast and aggressive and have been around for a while and this is earlier when I was trying to make the teams and everything as far as like. Like I said, I think I had a few peaking points. To even make the national team back then was a peaking point. To even make the olympic games through that process was a peaking point. I think I had a few in my career that kind of stood out. But I don't really think the importance of, I don't think most of these kids. I don't see anyone like there's a few of them, there's a few people. I'd be like I don't think this kid's going to get any faster or stronger at this point. So then it has to be on an intelligent wise, but I don't really think it's important.
Speaker 2:I don't really think it's viewed as important anymore 100% correct and, to be honest with you, you don't need to be explosive, you don't need to be extremely fast, you don't need to be extremely fast, you don't need to be extremely tough, you don't need to be extremely durable and you can still become Olympic champion, which I'm not sure what that says. Now, the ones that can, of course, they're better, but I think that it's hard to judge these days because, you see, first of all, for whatever can, we can debate this all till the end of time. To master the game in another era took an extremely long time. Yeah, to have that field, have that timing to have the steps. Nowadays, people can just skip so much of what we had to do, and so they get better faster so what is that?
Speaker 1:but when you think about what you just said, because, like the whole, lead up of what you said was interesting, and that's a conversation for another day. But then the other part which you said which is even more interesting is you know you can master the tools for this game in a short period of time, based on bio, biomarkers of how you are as an athlete right, like if you're tall, skinny, flexible, whatever, and you don't really necessarily need to be explosive. And then I watch all these TikTok, wicwalk, instagram guys training. They're on their knees, then they jump up, jump on a stair and then do an up ball right and I'm like so I watch all this and I go okay, I get it. How does it really?
Speaker 1:You know, we would have done that as part of our strength training, not that we would ever do that particular drill, but we did plyometrics and stuff like that. But the athleticism of what we had to do was one component of it. But you're right on the intellectual component. It took us years and I don't think I actually ever learned enough, don't think I actually ever learned enough years to master the craft of the strategic components of Taekwondo, which was stepping counters, combinations, defense and offensive situations, so that you could build a repository of knowledge to pull from. So when you got into this situation, x would do this, you would do this, and then you do this and it was so.
Speaker 1:It took us a long time and that's what you know when we always talk about this although I joke, now you know this is not the joke part. This is where I see it lacking right. And I watched this clown, this ass clown, who won like one national championship, put a video out and they get on my feed somehow and he's describing what he thinks Taekwondo fighting is, and he's anointed himself as the king of Taekwondo and I love these guys because he's a Korean kid never won anything, new York accent doesn't matter, but he's anointed himself king of Taekwondo. He puts all this stuff and I know you two guys like him and I'm not going to mention his name.
Speaker 1:But when I see it I just go and most people comment and just go, what an ass clown. But that's the level of knowledge you have to have. Like, if you go, okay, if they lift their leg, you cancel their leg. And here's how you do a front leg hook kick to the body and then I think you're right on the other side of it. Just to put a finer point on it, I think these kids end up getting hurt knee and joint wise, because you can't do all this, no matter who you are, unless you've got a certain body type. You can't turn your knees and body and hips in such a way to continue to do that with your body. The amount of impact when you do this weird inside, outside, crescent kick to the body. Your body's not your knees aren't designed for that. There's no musculature, your abductors don't have the strength to do that. Soccer is different. Like soccer, they kick.
Speaker 2:I don't understand how they kick soccer, yeah, but but you know, I mean listen, I know we're going to service on this, on this topic, but the athleticism is is different now. But like, I just think everything's getting younger and there's there's some, there's some outliers. I mean look at, look at this kid yamal in in barcelona right now, yeah, what, 18, 17, and he's, he's just, he's psycho good. And then there was messy was psycho good, and ronal there was. Messi was psycho good, and Ronaldo was seven good, psycho good. And then some of these guys play into their 30s and they're not the speed demons, but their intellectual ability makes up for their lack of physicality and they're still in good shape. So it's a little hard to say, but all I do know is the Olympic age has gotten so low compared to maybe your era and my era. It's like 18 to 22.
Speaker 2:You know, there's a few outliers, so what do you think?
Speaker 3:Because of what you said, though, it's the window and the ability of like the Olympics not being a money based system and the boxers going away early, so the ones that choose to stay kind of get there early at 18, make the Olympic team maybe take one shot, and then they're on to like the pro version or whatever they do. I mean, I know it's not the same for most sports, but it feels that way.
Speaker 2:And you know, there's some countries that are still thriving, you know. You look at Turkey. They're thriving. Italy is, on this, resurgent, you know, right now I mean America, maybe not, you know. So maybe we're losing our people, maybe we're not keeping people around long enough, maybe they go hard until they're 16, 17 and they're out afterwards. I don't know.
Speaker 1:Well, where's Taekwondo done in America? So you've got to go back. Rather than look at the symptom, look at the cause. Taekwondo is taught for life skill development in America in rich, pay-for-play communities, and they have this conversation in other sports too. Pay-for-play communities, right, and they have this conversation in other sports too. So the average kid that does Taekwondo in this country is not doing it in the hood. He's not in North Carolina choosing between going to the dentist or Taekwondo school. They're doing Taekwondo because their parents brought them there for some reason. Then none of these parents are wandering into like in soccer, basketball, baseball, whatever. Parents will pick leagues and say I want my kid to go to a D1 college, I want my kid to go pro, so I'm going to send them to Boletaris or IMG or whatever it's called now. And in soccer they absolutely do that. They're like I want my kid in a professional MLS academy because that's going to increase his chances of going to a D1 and pro and so like.
Speaker 2:Taekwondo doesn't have that. But more to your first point, you said in all those sports most of the underprivileged kids that are hungry, that are athletic, that are looking for a way out. They enter into those sports and if they're good enough, they kind of go to the. Yes, there's some people that are fluent and they can do the same path, but in martial arts it doesn't happen Nobody.
Speaker 1:Well, that's what I'm saying. Where are the poor kids in Taekwondo? There are no poor kids, that's right. There's no hoodlum kids, right? Like I was a hoodlum kid that found Taekwondo and, you know, found a way to pay for it so I could do all this stuff and, like the hood have.
Speaker 1:We excel at basketball, we excel at baseball, we excel at football. Well, football is different because it is what it is, but we excel at any sport that America chooses to put its muscle behind. We don't excel at soccer, and we could. But I talked to a coach and he said we're still young in soccer, coach. And he said we're still young in soccer, we don't excel at taekwondo any longer. And so you got to ask yourself the question is it the format, is it the change in the body type, or is it the change in the athlete that's walking through the gym? And then you know my kids. I got kids that are pretty good at taekwondo. They talk to me and I'm like enjoy it till you go to college. And then you know, focus on college, because the pathway to get to an Olympic berth just doesn't exist anymore with any reasonable expectation of success.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know we're going and it's already long today. We're not having an agenda for that long.
Speaker 1:Well, we should get out of here because I know that TJ has a hair appointment and I don't want his stylist to get mad. But, TJ, you have been amazingly patient with Moreno today. I know he's always taking shots at you and I apologize in advance. You know sorry, not sorry, and hopefully your mother's not mad at me today. Mrs Jennings, I hope all is well and I have nothing but madness.
Speaker 3:They're coming to visit me this week. Ooh, I might have to get her to pop on the next podcast. I might have to get her to pop on and say hi next time, just so she knows I might be busy. You should have your mom on.
Speaker 2:So next week we're going to talk about the Pan Ams because it's going to be finished. Maybe we should push the podcast until friday so I can come order me and, uh, grandmaster, friends can do it together let's do it friday, because friday I'm gonna go up to uh.
Speaker 1:On 2021 I'm in um I'm with dr capner, okay, so let's do it 22, which is friday, right, yeah? All right, like we said, this has been the warehouse salfayi version and nothing but mad love for you guys and we are out peace.