Masters Alliance
9th Dan BlackBelt and Olympic Gold Medalist Herb Perez visit with the best and brightest to bring clarity to the future of Martial arts.
Masters Alliance
Magnets In Your Socks Won’t Save You
The lights were brighter, the stages were bigger, and yet the action felt thinner. We unpack a Grand Prix season that looked like a spectacle and too often fought like a glorified open, asking the question nobody wants to: who should actually be on these mats? When five-per-country invites meet a relentless calendar, you get watered-down brackets and athletes who can’t peak, no matter how professional their camps are. We talk candidly about when elite athletes should sit, when prospects should chase reps, and why a world champion with nothing to prove still found herself cutting weight for zero upside.
From Thailand’s flat atmosphere to Waychamp’s week-to-week personality shift, we dive into the mechanics that steer outcomes. Scoring felt stingy in China and suddenly hospitable in Bangkok; headgear recognition improved, but refereeing often disappeared, creating a rule vacuum where holding paid and punches didn’t. Consistency shapes behavior, and right now the incentives are muddy. We also confront the explosive allegation of manipulated electronic socks—extra magnets, stronger pull, mismatched markings—and what it means for trust when technology can be gamed. If hardware decides points, hardware must be sacred, and consequences must be immediate.
We challenge the logic of under-21 worlds as currently used. Development is essential, but it stops being development when seasoned senior medalists drop down to harvest hardware. Keep U21 as a proving ground and let seniors be seniors. On the U.S. front, we scrutinize selection procedures that close divisions while a global point reset looms, and argue for turning Pan Ams into a development lab when rankings won’t carry over. Fund the pipeline, protect the podium, and read the calendar with courage. If Taekwondo wants sharper fights, clearer stakes, and real growth, it needs transparent rules, firm officiating, and smarter schedules—not just better graphics.
Enjoy the episode? Follow, share with a teammate, and leave a review with your take: should under-21 worlds be a true development tier, and should Pan Ams be opened up when points reset? Your feedback shapes what we tackle next.
This is the warehouse 15 with you know who and you know what and you know why. Welcome back. We are back from abroad. We've been many places, Ecuadorial, somewhere or other or other. And uh Bangkok, and I mean that like it sounds. And uh I was in Korea. I went to the temple, I went to the top of the mountaintop in the middle of nowhere. I went finally I've been invited to Buju so many times, and I finally went to Bujo so I could have some soju in Buju, but apparently there is no Soju in Buju. Basically, there's nothing in Buju, but it's nice. Welcome back, my brothers. Who's up first today? Hold up.
SPEAKER_01:First of all, I want to say happy thanks giving to you and everything's giving.
SPEAKER_07:Everything's giving me a lot of things.
SPEAKER_01:Before we get into it, you brought it up uh we can talk about it.
SPEAKER_07:I just need to know now. That's that you wear three uh did you burn it afterwards?
SPEAKER_00:Dude, what that first of all, I didn't get to wear it because I was offered my ninth dun from the organization and I had a meet with coach Kim Sayoung, so I I missed that particular ceremony, but I did see that many of them are wearing it. But I do have, and I should have supported today, my pink jacket. Did you see that pink jacket?
SPEAKER_06:That's what we're talking about.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, you talking about the pink oh you didn't see the second one. Oh you didn't see the second one. There is a humbox, a total humbok, which is uh traditional Korean dress. I was trying to get one for you two, but you are not ninth stop. The privilege of we we do the full circle, our mask masculinity comes all the back all the way back to our femininity, and then we circle back to our masculinity. I know you guys are still stuck a little bit, but I've I've made the full circle.
SPEAKER_02:First of all, I'm a little worried because you look like a damn Klansman from Asia.
SPEAKER_01:And second, and now you come back and you wear what the hell is that?
SPEAKER_00:Dude, this is this is the Doroma. Don't get scared. I needed something to compete with that Mike Tyson who's glaring at me sideways, but here it goes. I had to bring my boy Tyson back. I'm holding my thing here, and then I got my other arm over here. So you better watch out. And then I'm just in case it gets a little crazy. I got my beads, so I can do my thing.
SPEAKER_07:You can never talk about anything I wear ever again. I think. I think no. I think you know what? I think you're just it's done. Your your fashion tips conversation's over. That's a crazy shirt. It's over.
SPEAKER_01:Well, wait, wait till you see next. No pun intended.
SPEAKER_00:Well, listen, Muju was Muju was nice. I got to see 300 of my taekwondo brethren from around the world. Um, and I mean, I really saw people that we all know for a long time that came, and then there were all these new people I had not seen. And uh I've been invited to Ecuadorial New Guinea, I've been invited to uh Nigeria, which I'm not going to. Um I'm I've been invited dude, I you know, but that's dangerous right now. I was listening to this amazing podcast about Fela Kuti, who was one of their um very father of Afro Beat, Afro pop beat, and uh just amazing story about this guy. But um, I'll send it on to you. It's an it's a nice podcast, almost as good as ours. And then I was invited to Poland, so I may go and investigate the other half of my roots, but I did hire this weekend from Chicago a Polish Puerto Rican. So now there are two of us in the same location. I think it's a movement. So we hired a Mr. Rosario, and I said, Where is Rosario from? And he said, Well, actually, I'm half Puerto Rican and Polish, and I was like, dude, that's fine, it's crazy. But uh now there's Arlene Lemas, Mexican Polish, me, and then uh Juan is Mexican Mexican Mexicai American and so some German descent.
SPEAKER_02:But hey, speaking of speaking of podcasts, I had to I I listened to Joe Rogan talking to uh Theo Vond the other day. He was just a kind of a yeah, one of those funny ones, whatever. But Joe Rogan was talking about Taekwondo again, and he was talking about actually uh he said Bobby, no, he said Clay Barber. He's like, I almost went to the military because I wanted to do Taekwondo. And there was this guy named Clay Barber that was in the military, and he was really good. I looked up to him and you know, blah, blah. He kept on saying Clay Barber, but then he's like, he's a black guy. I'm like, that's Bobby Clayton. He was thinking about Bobby Clayton. Well, but it was funny because he kept on mentioning it, mentioning it, mentioning it. You know, I know he meet so many people, he probably met Clay Barber somewhere based, you know, on his those fight scenes and stuff like that, and that name probably stuck out, but that was Bobby Clayton. But I thought it was funny, again, how we talked about the military doing Taekwondo and some people that we know.
SPEAKER_00:Well, before this podcast, I mean, I know TJ always used to talk about me, and then he would refer to me as uh Herbert Hoover, but he didn't really realize that that was the president of the United States. But then when he got on the podcast with me, he remembered my last name.
SPEAKER_02:Do you know who Larry Hoover is? Do you know who Larry Hoover is?
SPEAKER_00:No. Basketball coach?
SPEAKER_02:Founder of the Black Gangster Disciples in Chicago.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, really? Oh. Why why you gotta mention that in the same breath as me? I don't want anybody to visit me. Shaitow, baby. All right, well, let's get to it. What we got today? What's up?
SPEAKER_02:Oh man. Um you want to start, TJ?
SPEAKER_07:No, I mean, I think we start with just yeah, I think we just finished, I think we just wrapped up the last uh Grand Prix Challenge series in Thailand, right? That was the last one.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, I mean, something, yeah. I mean, I mean definitely let's talk about that, but I I think I would also I think it'd be cool to talk about like what these grand prix series ended up being. You know what I'm saying? I I think there was a lot of fanfare, and you know, with the whole point we said, and people were trying to go, and then they eliminated it to five people per country, and there was 50 people total, and so it it wasn't what it was supposed to be. And I even starting in the first one, it it didn't seem like it was it looked nice, and it not really actually Charlotte didn't look that nice, but it was you know, I'm talking it was better than a normal open, and then you know the one in Muji was pretty nice, it looked like a really you know big event, and this one here in in Thailand was a huge event as far as like the display. But barring a few matches and barring a few divisions, I'm not sure that it definitely wasn't like the grand prize of the old where the top 32 in the world you know were in and you know every match was a dog fight and stuff like that. I felt like it was really, really watered down and possibly even nothing more than a glorified open. You know, I'm not sure what you think about TJ.
SPEAKER_07:You know, are you talking about the are you talking about the last one or just all in general, just across the board? I'm gonna say all in general. I think I think we talked about it before, but I kind of I was thrown off when we started when we changed it from the outside of 70. I think that was a better plan when it was you had to be outside of 70 to go to these things to earn your way to get into a grand prix. I think it gave the sport a little bit of a like, kind of like a okay, good, this young kid can go this like kind of building process. But we just watered it down. I mean, you invite everybody, it's five per country. Um, all the big names are still there. I'm not quite sure. I don't I don't think it served any purpose as far as like development or like getting some more people through or the word or the word itself of a challenge, you know what I mean? I say most of the people that are qualified are gonna be the ones in the Grand Prix, anyways. Five points.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I saw a bunch of Western you know world people, obviously from the United States and Canada, that uh to be honest with you, God bless them for making the trip, God bless them for trying to get experience, God bless them for spending the money or investing in themselves, but they just had no business being there at all. Like when you go there halfway across the world and you know you don't score a point or you get point gap, point gap. I I don't know what you learned other than being in the environment saying that you did it, you know. So I it's weird. I'm one side of my brain says, yeah, go there and learn that and see that. But the other side is like just be a realistic, you know, why not go to a regular open? Why not save some money and and go to a camp? You know, I I I don't know. I just I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_07:I think it's just because people can. I don't know. I think they just go because they can. And it it and honestly, I think and it sounds good. You know what I mean? Grand Prix.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I mean, you gotta ask yourself a question, and uh it would be a question you would ask if you guys were still fighting, right? Why should you have to fight an individual that's not up to par? Like the thing that used to drive me crazy about the world championships is you'd show up and you'd have to fight pretty much anybody that showed up, and that could be a guy who he's really a red belt or a blue backcomb. He made the tournament because they need to bring somebody and they want to give him experience, but why should I be the guy to give him experience and ultimately a beatdown or a knockout? Or why should I hurt my feet on this guy who can't really do taekwondo? So I never was a fan of people showing up that weren't qualified to be at that event. Now, if you go to an event and it's not supposed to be a high-caliber event, you know that and you can make a choice whether to go or not. But if this is really about points and point totals, then everybody that comes to that should be somebody that can dance and somebody that knows how to dance and dance well. Why should I have to use this guy's experience? Um, uh, give him experience, but more importantly, why should I in well, nobody gets injured in Taekwondo today, other than getting their feelings hurt, but um, why should I waste well, nobody really wastes energy either. So, all right, well, maybe you should let them do it. It doesn't really matter.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I listen, I I mean, talking about the world championship thing, that's a whole nother star. I mean, I I I could see at some point where you actually have to qualify for the world championships. You have to be a certain ranking, you know, just to even get in there instead of just gotta qualify for the Olympics, gotta qualify for the Olympics, yeah. Yeah, so I mean it could be it could be something that could be looked at. But I think with the point reset, this I think maybe is well-intentioned to give some people direct, you know, spots into those. Uh if you because remember, if you qualify, if you got top three in the first grand prix, it qualified you for the first grand prix, and yeah, just for the one. But re real relatively speaking, all the people that meddled, they they they qualify by points anyway. They're gonna get into the grand prize anyway. So I'm not sure what it, you know, what it really does.
SPEAKER_07:Do you know if those spots like roll over to like the next person? Like the third, the next person, like I say, because you go to the first grand prix, and by all means you go win the first grand prix. Now you have enough points to get into the grand prix naturally, but you already have an invite to the second grand prix per the wild cards. Are they reusing the wild cards?
SPEAKER_02:I think they'll just kind of expand the list down to like number 33, 34, 75. Yeah. Well, what about they'll still rank you in the draw?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I mean, uh, you know, now that you you kind of open up that door for that kind of conversation. What do you think about wild cards into the Olympics? In other words, these I hate that the that gift, you know, you get some guy from New Guinea who shouldn't be there. It's ridiculous. And he just gets beat up, right? And so, like, I think it's there's other other places to give them development, it's not at the Olympic Games.
SPEAKER_02:It's not to listen, I I don't I don't know any sport, any combative sport, I don't know, but I don't think any combative sport gives wild cards to anybody. I don't think boxing says, you know what, let's just give somebody a a chance. I think it's absolutely horrible. So um it's across the board.
SPEAKER_07:It makes no sense. I mean, and I I think it's a little bit better now because you have more Olympic spots available, but going back to when there was only two guys, two girls per country, it's a it's a big thing to give away a wild card to someone who just is just there, you know, or just just to go. You know they're gonna draw the number one seed or they're gonna lose their first match.
SPEAKER_02:I think the last two games, they had people that qu went to qualifiers in uh Europe or went to qualifiers in Africa, didn't qualify, and then gave them wildcards in. Like I can understand if you're from a country, and I really I can't, but let's just say you're from a country that wouldn't send you for some other reason, and you let them go because they didn't have the opportunity to go quali you know fight. You know, let's say you're a female from some country that doesn't allow the women to compete, let's just say, and they wanted to do that. But I give you the chance, you show up, you fight, you lose, you go home, and then you apply for a wild card for the debut, and they say, Yeah, we'll give you a wild card. I'm like, that's ridiculous. That happened, it happened to two people, a man and a woman, and the last in the last Olympic Games. I think it's just absolutely horrible. Absolutely horrible.
SPEAKER_07:But they should they could do a wild card tournament potentially. You know what I mean? Take those wildcards and just do that. Would make more sense.
SPEAKER_00:Well they do that in World Cup. The Olympics, not about it, shouldn't be called the it's not the Rudy tournament, right? I mean, it's not, you know, like that movie Rudy or Rocky. You gotta earn your way there. If I go to the Olympics and I go as an athlete, I want to fight the best in the world. I don't want to have to fight some guy who shouldn't be there and not qualified to be there, and then God forbid he hurts me and I don't finish the rest of my day. So, I mean, there are ways to increase the participation of sport, but let's be clear what this is. This was Cho, the dumbest guy in the world, trying to keep Taekwondo the Olympics, and he figured if he did this, it would show his humanitarian side. And that's how that's how stupid he is. Like he doesn't understand that there's other ways to do that, and he just does what the typical Korean solution is to things. Oh, let's just include everybody, and then it'll be we are the world. Like this guy, I've met, I mean, I've got shoes smarter than him, but I I get tired of saying that. But anyway, I don't want to I don't want to really dump on him. Let's get on to other stuff. Let's talk about the event itself.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you know, listen, I went to Thailand and I was there and I gotta watch it. I I just felt like it was a very first time went to a women's world championship in Africa, and it was just kind of like blah. Like you it just there was no energy in the air. And then I get to Thailand, and it was a lot of the same. I mean, there was just not a lot of good matches. It didn't seem like it was mainly Korea, China, Russia, um, just a scattering of some other people, and it just I don't know, it just didn't seem like there was any there was any energy in the uh in the arena. Uh the until the last day, the last day had uh minus eighty and uh women's fifty-seven. Those two got a little heated. There were some good matches, you know, but other than that, it was pretty, pretty flat, you know. I mean, I thought there was uh, you know, kind of for me, for our standpoint, we had our girl Maria, that you know, had been uh me and TJ talked about this, you know, a couple days ago, undefeated all year long. She won the world championship, she won the team world championship, you know, with the Brazil group. And why she was there, um, I have no idea why she was there. And uh to be honest with you, she had a very very bad weight cut. Um won her first couple matches and ended up losing in the quarterfinals, um, and didn't even get into the medal rounds, which is kind of horrible because you go to undefeated all year long, you have no reason to be there, you just come off a world championship, you have nothing to prove, no points to gain, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You're the number one ranked person in the world by 60 points, whatever it is, more than that. No reason to be there. It's all uh, you know, kind of a setup to for failure, and uh quite honestly, yeah, it was not a very good performance, especially the last uh event of the year. So that's honest. And I think uh Korea ended up winning that the same girl that she beat in the finals uh at the world championships and at the last Grand Prix in Muju, she actually shut her out there in both tournaments. It's a lot of events.
SPEAKER_07:It's a lot of events, and I think too many events, too many events. I think it's a lot of events, and I think it has to be like I said, when I saw her name on a bracket, I was like, there's just I don't even know. I guess I would look at it this way. I don't even know how you emotionally get up for that tournament. Like, how do you where do you find the I need to go win this in that moment after being the world champion after doing phenomenal all year long to kind of go, I need, I need to win this, I I want to win this. I you know what I mean? Like, what's the benefit of winning it? And I think I think it was an advantage for everyone else just to kind of get back out there and I don't know, see her one more time.
SPEAKER_02:I'm I I'm gonna say for us, it was uh it was a mistake for Brazil because for these three events, we've kind of treated them like a glorified open. We let home coaches come and stuff like that. And um we we told her we didn't think it was a good idea, but her and her home coach decided it was a good idea, and it wasn't a good idea. So I'm gonna say there was a little disconnect, you know. I'm not real happy with it, I'm not real proud of it, but no reason should have been there. No reason should have been there. Now it's interesting because Nike fought too, world champion, grand free champion, and you know, I mean he's not the under-21, too, huh? This kid won under 21 Pan Amps, he won the under-21 team pan's, he won the world championship, he won the team world championship, and now he he just won the grand free, and now he's gonna go to under 21 at middleweight. He's fighting 87. Um again, I don't think he needs to go there, but like he's just this young kid, and like I'm not gonna.
SPEAKER_07:I like that event though. I have uh I'm not super excited about it, but it being it the first one and kind of I don't know, I like the feel. I like the if you're a young kid, if you're anyone that's in the system, I think it's a it's a good place to be, you know what I mean?
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I mean I mean, listen, when you're young, these are stages of development. So, you know, my best year, I had six, six or seven gold medals in a row, and then the very last tournament, I got a bronze medal, which was the most important tournament. Had I gone to one or one or less tournaments, I probably would have had a better result in that final tournament where I wanted to perform. And I got that advice from one of my best coaches ever, one of my best instructors, Tifu Paul Visio. Sifu Visio was like, Why are you fighting? You can't fight in this many events, these high-caliber events. He goes, I fight once a year most. Yeah. And that's the kind of where you get you peak for a performance. And I think one of the challenges with this format is people can't peak. And certainly, you know, uh the US can't, well, U.S. can't meddle, but U.S. doesn't peak at all. And I'm uh the TikTok wick walk champion got TikTok wickwalked again, I guess, by Korea. Um, so he didn't even get a chance to get beat again by Brazil. But um, you know, I was laughing because I put up a I put up a post about it, and uh, you know, he's a uh he's uh his his uh well I don't know, one of his relatives wrote something back and they make they always try to make a dig at, oh, when you know, when was the last time you did something? I'm like, uh yeah, I did something and yeah, I don't have to, they're like, why don't you get a job? I said, Oh, I actually don't have to have a job anymore because I want a bunch. But anyway, I laugh, I laugh because you know, this is the problem. And then sure enough, I go on the internet and what is on what's on the uh what comes up in my feed? More TikTok, wick walk, sick in sitting in a park, rapping to a tree with glasses and no shirt on in somewhere in North Carolina. So I I implore USA Taekwondo. There's a well, we'll talk about that later, but there's a few things you should do. Um, and uh one of the things is get your athletes back in the gym and get them off TikTok, take away their phones, and then you might have some results. And I'm hoping that that particular athlete has results because he's the best, if not only, hope for America to even have a medal at home in LA. And if you can't win, you know, somebody pointed this out to me the other day. I was in Korea, and you know, I always lament, you know, there's certain people I would like to have fought at the Olympics, and then they reminded me, they said, you know, your toilet was actually harder. You fought Spain in Spain in front of the king and queen of Spain in their hometown. To win that is harder than fighting anybody else. And I was like, I never kind of looked at it like that. So we should have the home court court advantage in LA going into that tournament. But I I'm doubtful that we're gonna have I I think we get automatically qualified, right? We don't we get qualified in every division? So I I know we'll have people qualified. Um, but that I I I I if you're buying tickets now, just get the first day tickets for those events. You may not need the second or third day tickets or the second or third third event tickets as like a session. So save your money um and and just get the first day advances, certainly for some of them. I wish I didn't have to say that, but I don't see anything changing that reality. Um and most people kind of figure that out. You know, Coach Baretta, you were around when we did all these seminars, and I remember talking to people, and this guy kind of says something, and I say something, and then he says something. So I asked him a one question, and you'll remember this story, coach from Colorado, and I said, Um, he says, Well, why do we have to take this thing? And I said, Well, because we're everybody's taking it, and we found that the coaches weren't um the ones that got certified were kind of gifted in. He says, Well, and I said, Can I ask you a question? And he says, Yeah. I said, How many of your athletes made the US team? And he goes, What does that have to do with anything? I said, I'm just curious, how many made the US team? He said, Well, well, none. I go, Great. I said, How many made the team trial? He said, None. He said, What does that have to? I said, uh no, it's okay. I said, How many of them um you know won this or that? He goes, Well, none. I said, Great. I said, Um then don't change. He goes, What? I get I said, as Herb Perez, owner of whatever school it was back then, Perez Taekwondo, I hope you don't change. You make it easier for my guys to beat you. Now, as Herb Perez, head of USA Taekwondo's coaching development program, I hope you sit down and learn something so your athletes can get better. You're perfectly engineered for the results that you're currently getting, right? And I think that's a message to USA Taekwondo, which is hey, if you like your results, don't change. You're just making it easier for everybody else in the world to beat you. But anyway, I went on a bit of a tirade. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, it's a listen, I like I said, uh this this last event was uh you know TJ, you alluded to it. I think uh, you know, I think the athletes you know were tired. I know some athletes that went you know from worlds to women's worlds, right back to there, and then in China for the China Open. I mean, it's just crazy. I don't I it's so irresponsible for the for the athletes to have to compete that much that they can't get up. Now, in this case of Enrique, the the you know, our kid from Brazil, I kind of like it. He's 21 years old. I mean, he's got a you know, probably the last year that he's doing something this crazy with this many events. Um, but you know, I guess do it while you can, right? Do it while you're young, do it while your body you know can. And he wants to that's kind of cool.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, I can see the individual approach to those type of things. I just I just didn't see the like you said before, it was uh um hard to understand that the the 57 being there for me. Like I think she's the queen of the world right now. I just think that, you know, shit, she could have went and just watched for all I care. You know what I mean? Yeah, too. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So what do you think? What so I mean, before we go, before we talk about uh uh under 21s, what did you think about did you pay attention to anything to the way champ? I didn't know the new system.
SPEAKER_07:I I did. I I I saw a lot of a lot of touches, a lot of it was weird again. And you always go, you know, you look at a match like we talk about Enrique, you know, giving up zero points versus other matches where one billion touches are going up. I think it's the same system, just wrapped in something different. You're gonna score when you score and you're you're not gonna score when you don't score. I think the head, the the face stuff is crazy. I still can't believe we're considering going to no protest cards for the the headshots. Um yeah, it that that part's a little bit weird for me. Um, but overall, I don't mind, I didn't mind some of the stuff that normally scores not scoring, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_02:Me too. So I watched the the the the Grand Prix, what is it? The one in China, and nothing was scoring. Like it was, I mean, it was the there was two, three, four body points a match. I mean, it was nothing was scoring, no front legs at all. Now, this one, front legs were scoring, cuts were scoring, you know, not as easy. And I and we I sat with the way champ guy, and I was like, what did you adjust? He's like, no, no, no, we didn't adjust anything. And uh the lady's like, oh, maybe it's the the maybe it's the people kicking. I go, I go, ma'am, it's the same world champions there that fought in that event that are here. So this is not like a different level of athletes, the exact same athletes, the Olympic level athletes. I go, you had to change something because there's no way it's it's like night and day. But I I'm gonna tell you this, I liked it. I thought it was way more fair. I thought like you had to kick and you had to score some points, but like every system, there were some that were like, whoa, I didn't think that was gonna go up, and then whoa, why did that go up? But the headgears worked a lot, lot, I mean, 75% better than the world championship, which had 0%. I mean, you had to card everything. But uh I I liked it. I and whether I like it or not, I think it's gonna be around more. I'll tell you that.
SPEAKER_07:Well, that's been the case. I mean, this is how it always works, right? It comes out of nowhere, it ends up at the right events at the right time. Other systems look like they really, really, really don't work, and then that's where we go with. But I think you mix that with the I guess I was more concerned about the um, I know you were there in person, the refereeing. The lack of refereeing. Were they just the referees were just hanging out this trip, right?
SPEAKER_02:They were so I was told there was a bunch of new referees, and there were there's a couple good ones there that I knew from before, but there's a bunch of new ones that they were kind of trying out, and they made some like horrible calls. Like people fall down, they stand them up, and they say go, like whoa, whoa, whoa, that's a deduction, you know, or people's heels are out, you know, by a good half a foot. And I'm like, wow.
SPEAKER_07:It looked like they were trying not to affect the fights. It looked like they were trying to purposely not affect the fights. I mean, I saw some of them. I mean, someone posted a video and they were super excited about a scoring, but I'm watching someone hop five times one, two, three, extend on the four, bring their life back, extend one more for five, and it's like good. Like it's good. No call, nobody raised their eyebrow, but I don't know. I I think that's I I don't know. I think that's how they want it.
SPEAKER_02:So for me, the big thing was, and I I don't want to say the person, but it was uh as a female athlete, and uh they got busted for manipulation of the socks.
SPEAKER_07:Did I tell you this? No, this is brand new information. Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. No, so what happened was this I was gonna say it was in uh 67, and I I had fought uh the girl that I coached had fought her in Malabo, and we just talked about how the KPP doesn't score on the headgear, and it was this girl was like ding ding ding, and I'm like, wow man, she scores pretty good. Like it you didn't have to be to resplay, it just it scored. I didn't think much of it. She's good though, good front leg, she's pretty strong. Anyway, she fights her first match against against her own country, and I'm walking out of the ring, and the coach goes, Coach, coach, can you sit over there in the other person's chair? I'm like, Okay, sure. So I sit in this Greek girl's chair against this other Greek girl, and they fight each other. And the girl I'm coaching loses the first round easy, second round is closer, but she lost. Okay, that girl, I guess, is the A girl, this is the B girl. I don't know anything about it. Super nice. My girl down's coaching is pretty good. We go to the back, it finishes. The next match, that girl's gonna fight Ava Lee, Coach Lee's daughter. And somehow she goes through uh inspection, and they say that there's something wrong. There's there's too many magnets in her thing. They're like, she's like, what? I bought him here, whatever, blah blah blah. So they give her new ones, she goes and she fights Ava. Now she fights Ava, no points to the body. One point they she had to get a Vita replay and no points in the second round. So all of a sudden, no points going up. So they come back and they kind of figured out they made a mistake. When there's some kind of manipulation of the socks, you don't go for it. Like you're disqualified right there. Because it's a brand new system, they gave her new socks. She put on the new socks and she went and fought. And she said she bought the socks from Waychamp. I heard a couple different stories. Um, I heard from someone in the WT that there was three stories given, one um they bought him here. Oh no, no, they didn't buy him here, they bought him in Greece. Oh no, they didn't buy him in Greece, they bought him from the dealer in Spain that gives him. I'm like, okay, supposedly the stamp on the like the the logo was like too big or too small. I I don't know. I mean it sounds like a whole lot of and then there were three extra magnets, and I guess when they checked the magnets, when they bright, when they light up a little bit, these things like were like really strong. So they said they were more magnets and they were stronger, and even the markings on the socks weren't correct. Now, I talked to the girl before I found this information out, and she was like, This is crazy. I bought them for the you know, this she told me she bought them in Spain. She's like, These are their socks. It's the first time I use them, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I don't know, but I think they're gonna throw the book at her, like, at least for a year for the socks. And she swears she bought them through Waychamp. And I'm like, that's kind of weird that there's one defective pair with a different stamp on it and three extra magnets that are stronger. I don't know, man. She's a nice young lady. Young. Good, like I don't even think she needs that kind of help.
SPEAKER_07:I think I don't know. I'm convinced that that happens a lot. I don't want to call nobody no cheaters, I don't know who, but like, so it's like that's what I'm saying. When you watch matches, sometimes and it's like one billion point scoring, and that next match is like zero, it's just like, wait a minute, like something is not right here. You know what I mean? Something is is not the same as the other ones. So I don't know. I think it happens a lot, to be honest with you. I think people are always trying to figure out how to manipulate the system a little bit, whether it be whether it be uh stronger magnets or making the magnets stronger, and like you gotta, I think in Asia and all that stuff too, is most of that stuff's made over there, you know what I mean? So who knows?
SPEAKER_02:If I had to guess, that's what I would say. I mean, I don't think people are trying to unstitch them and put extra magnets in because they always check. But are the magnets that big or that big? You know what I'm saying? Are they, I don't know, four times the size or eight times the the strength? I mean, I I'm I agree with you, but I just thought it was weird because I haven't heard anything like that in since the US Open, you know, 12 years ago. You know, I mean, I mean, it's been a minute, so yeah, I thought that was some interesting news. But I think overall, I I kind of like the the system. I didn't think it was that bad. Um I just want to know what the I just want to know what the rules are.
SPEAKER_07:I mean, you saw it in person. I just want to know like what's holding, what's not holding, what's falling, what's not falling. I mean, like I just said, I watched, I mean, I like I went back to training, I made a joke to my guys. I was like, just so you guys know, if I ever tell you stop holding, don't listen to me. Let's we're gonna practice holding from now on. Because it was just it was good to go. Arms wrapped around, arms pulled under to stop the fight, to to pull on the leg. I mean, there was just there were very few, and again, I know we get annoyed, but there's very few calls being made at all.
SPEAKER_02:But you know what? It's like I I I know it sounds crazy, but I mean, I'm watching American football here. It's like just grab as much as you want, or hold as much as you want, or pull as much until the referee calls it. Because I mean, I'm gonna go back to like when I used to say I used to coach against some of the the G V girls, and I thought that they always were grabbing and stuff, and they get called once out of every five times. So, you know, if it's only 20% and you're getting getting free, the eighty other 80% and you're getting points, do it. You know, I mean, until until they start calling you. So I I know what you're saying. I mean, it's it's it's bad to say that, but it seems like called once out of every five times. They were hating on punches. There was some drills, some I saw some light, and nothing.
SPEAKER_07:Hating, clean heavy shots, clean, like sound, separation, stoppage of action afterwards, nothing. That has to be a bit of for that to happen across the board, that has to be something they talked about before, right? Like, like there's no way that just comes out and everyone's on the same page.
SPEAKER_02:You know what they uh young, you always talk about this. They overcorrect, they overcorrect. I mean, they were scoring front hand punches, swing putting TJ. How many times are we going, what's good, what are you guys doing? And and now all of a sudden, nothing. It's like you guys can't figure it out, man. Just come on.
SPEAKER_00:Well, the conver the con the conversation about technique has left the building, so it's important to think about that and then reverse engineer it. You're not allowed to talk about the type of kick that's scored. In other words, if you lift your leg up and you don't bend your knee and you you don't really kick, you just put it on the chest protector. That's a point. So at that point, what do you do with a punch? If you punch, now you're gonna say it has to be this kind of punch, or it's gotta be what so you can't either like the Koreans have historically hated punching because it detracts from kicking. Now you don't have to kick. So once you start scoring a decent punch, you know, it starts looking more like karate or boxing or kickboxing. So there may be that kind of conversation. And remember, you don't have, you know, you don't have anybody at WT who can fight or you know, remembers what good taekwondo is. And the ones that are there that do remember are quiet because they like the Soju train. They want to get on the Soju and Meal train, like Jay Warwick and my friend who I love John Cook Young. He's been in the room long enough to have that conversation.
SPEAKER_07:But it was a good idea when they added punches, like at all, like zero percent. Should we have ever started like saying punching?
SPEAKER_00:We started, we started. First of all, it's embarrassing. Either have no point for punching at all, it's just a same as a block. It has the negative, it has no impact, it's neutral. So if you don't want to score punching, you don't think you think it's gonna hurt the kicking aspect of the sport, don't score it. You don't score a block, right? So don't score a punch. A punch is a block, let's say. It's a way to impede progress. Score a fall, though. And well, that's stupid too. But that's Yang Jim Bong, another genius in the making. You know, that's an idiot, you know, talking about taekwondo. No, he didn't do taekwondo. But and you know, there's this rumor that he was actually the coach of coaches. He wasn't even that. He was a smart guy who figured out that the smartest place to be in the room because he'd be the smartest guy in the room was Taekwondo, and that's Yang Jim Bong, now president of the KTA. Yang, Yang hated pushing or he didn't like grabbing, so now he put in pushing and increased grabbing. So the quote you the question you asked, I'll go back to, which is should you score punching? Yeah, we figured that out. Steve Capner and I came up with a scoring system, punching was one, any round kick to the body was two, any turning kick was three, any jump kick was four, any face kick was five. And that was based on level of difficulty, level of what you wanted to see. So if you want to see more long-range shooting in basketball, you made a three-point line. You want to see more face kicks, differentiate it. What's easy to do? Round kick's easy to do. What's easier? Punching. So make a punch half a point, make a punch a point, then double it for kicking. That was our strategy, that was our mentality. Well, it comes the idiot crew, showing crew, and you know, they can't fix the refereeing. And I just laugh because all the conversations we have circle around the same thing. The scoring and this and we chat and whatever you call the new scoring system. The problem is fixed, you know, fix the referees. Fix the referees, fix the sport. We're the only sport that prides itself on we are life development. We develop character, yet we can't develop character in ourselves to find referees that can score the match honestly enough so that we don't cheat. So instead of cheating, we now get a system that doesn't work, so at least we're all equally affected. And we don't care that the sport has suffered. The sport doesn't let's be clear, the sport doesn't exist anymore. What exists now is some sort of foot game that you play, and then we all sit here and talk about it, and then we complain about it, and it just isn't what it was. It's the only sport that has de-evolved since its inception into the Olympic game. Uh maybe judo a little bit, but not to this degree.
SPEAKER_02:I think the punch thing is interesting because now they're gonna go a punch and the referees have to verify it. I'm like, well, we don't do that with kicks. I can do whatever kind of kick as long as it scores, it scores, right? To the body or to the face. If it goes up on the scoreboard, it's it's it's valid. So if I punch you and you guys give me these new electronic gloves and I punch you and it makes enough power, that's like why do we need a referee to decide? And we we don't do I go, you guys because we're gonna get to the clinch and go like this.
SPEAKER_00:You know what I mean? Well, you can you can you can fix that with uh a sequential thing, so it can happen with X amount of time. But if you stand in the clinch and you go boom, the guy still stands here, boom, and he does it again, boom. That's those are if you did that with your foot, it'd be a point.
SPEAKER_02:So you know what CJ said that would never happen because then it'd be in the clinch and they would break you. You know what I'm saying? Now, every time you go like this, you don't you can't punch one more time from the clinch. I mean, it just doesn't happen. They break you, so I don't know, but no, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, none of these guys punch or kick with power anymore, so it doesn't really matter. They were punching the hell out of each other out there, and they were like, it's like nobody could.
SPEAKER_02:It was good punches, but you know, it's funny. Um I'm in Thailand, I went to two different TIE fights, and I'm watching them, and before every match, I was like this. I'm like, oh shh, oh shh. I'm like, these guys have legit, they gotta have legit fear, like I could die, I could go to sleep, I can get something broken. Like I've coached for the last 10 years, have never once have I gone into a match where I where I'm I'm in fear of my athlete getting hurt. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like I can remember back in the day, like this this guy might go to sleep right now. He may he may not come out. Yeah, like he may be. This could this could be a scary match. You know what I'm talking about T, you know what I'm talking about Youngin'. So, but I was like, I I never go to an Olympic final, World Champ final. I'm like, oh my gosh, something bad could happen to my guy right now. I just like to do that. I think that's what we lose.
SPEAKER_07:That's what gave the GB guys back in the day a an advantage. They were when you go get kickboxers that have a lot more on the line. When you go to a kickbox, they can get punched in the face, kicked in the leg, whatever the rules are, then you put them in our in our system, then I think that fear factor or that like idea of maybe I'll get touched goes away. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00:I mean, the G I mean, I you know, I mean, with all due respect, I'm not saying it's good, I'm not saying it's a good one. No, but for all due respect for the GB guys, the GB guys, I mean, really, who have they produced other than one, I mean a couple of women? What their method produced a couple of mediocre athletes who were good at they were Arlene Lemis, is they weren't they what they didn't have the only guy they had, and they ruined him, was um Aaron Cook.
SPEAKER_02:Aaron was I think what they're talking about, I think what he's I think what you're referring to is like he just the mindset like these guys play as of fighters.
SPEAKER_00:But then go to go to Canada and go get some hockey guys, right? So, you know, find uh find the hockey players without teeth. Like when I went to Canada to fight in the CNE's, I would look at the guy who was fighting, and if he didn't have teeth, I was I was scared because I realized this guy didn't care, he didn't have anything to lose. He already lost his teeth, right?
SPEAKER_01:So funny.
SPEAKER_00:We don't wait, but it's true, we don't have that anymore. And you said it, you know, we joke about it every week, but the reality is now, and it's not the athletes' fault. We have a lot of really, really talented, good athletes. We just don't have any tough guys because they've never had to be tough. You know, they're gonna need to be tough, they tick tock and wick walk because they don't have to be tough. You wouldn't have had any athletes during our time tick tocking because there would have been this follow-up TikTok when they got knocked out. Oh, how's it how's it looking down there?
SPEAKER_07:Like, I'm not making an excuse. I mean, like I watch this all day. What what what world? What's what worse? I don't know. I've never seen more. No, I'm just saying just this idea behind social media. I've never seen more. I'm I'm on your side, I'm I'm not going opposite. I've never seen more people post clips and videos, and then if you actually watch the event, they didn't win. Like that, that to me is like I know and I know you know, content's content, everybody wants to put it out there, and yada, but it's so hard for me to like go, man, this guy made this dope video. Oh, yeah, how did he do? He lost in quarterfinals, or they lost it.
SPEAKER_02:Like yes, and it it and it's not just it it's it drives me crazy the good people do it, but it drives me more crazy. I don't want to say bad people, but average people or people that aren't like in the upper echelon putting that kind of stuff. I'm like, what are we doing?
SPEAKER_01:You went you won one match or something.
SPEAKER_02:That's what I mean by it's different now. That's what I mean by it's different now.
SPEAKER_00:The comment that I got made to me was because as usual, some some group, whether it was Pan Am Taekwondo or USA Taekwondo, posted a bronze medal performance. And I was like, really? And I got yelled at by my brother in Korea because he says, hey, don't diminish a bronze medal, because you know, he, you know, it was tough to get a bronze medal. I said, Yeah, that's when we were fighting. I said, you know, you get a bro, you can't we and by the way, we didn't celebrate that. We were we were lamenting, wishing we had a better performance. I didn't come home and and and and say, hey, I didn't call everybody I knew and say I got a bronze medal today. I didn't call anybody. I went back to the gym and started training again to try to get a gold medal. So I mean, and that's just a mentality. Like you got to set up.
SPEAKER_07:I think at certain events, at certain events, at certain points in your career, I think those are those those can be good medals. You know what I mean? First, we're talking about when we're talking about I mean, even again, prior before, but even like world championships and all that stuff like that. I just I think at some point, but I'm I'm going even level deeper than that. I'm saying people that just have not performed, like, you know, and they got the you know, but again, I think we're in this world of content and putting out whatever you do, and it's just good enough. And I think we're not, you know, everybody must celebrate it because if you don't celebrate it, then you're a hater, you know?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I well, I'm a hater. And I'll take the title. You know, I get I get canceled every day. Like my poor son, you know, who you know I talk about often, um obviously, but you know, he he doesn't have a good they win and he doesn't have a good performance. So as soon as he gets in the car, I'll be like, How many times did the ball get past your feet? Right? I'm like, I and I told him, I said, you can focus on winning or you can focus on what you did well. So, but the people that care about you tell you what you didn't do well so you can get better. I said, So the people that tell you you want to be a great athlete, and actually this is let me let me give you the 10 second, the 10 second solution. I do this every tournament. Win or lose. I would think about what I did well for about two seconds, remember it so I could use it again. I then immediately did, what did that guy do well against me? What did he score with? Let me learn that, and then let me learn a defense for it. Now that's in my that's in my pocket too. Then the last thing is what I didn't do well before the tournament and after the tournament, I always went back to try to figure out how to do better. Now, if you take that mentality, you reinforce what you do well, you take what other people do well, make it part of your regimen and learn a defense for it, and then work on your weaknesses, then you're gonna be the best in the world. Now, if all you do is focus on, oh, I did well, I went to the tournament, I'm a bronze medal, I did this, I did that, and I TikTok really well. And by the way, look at me with my shirt off. Yeah, you're gonna be you're gonna be the best TikToker in the world. You're gonna have more likes and more fans, and like uh, and like one of my friends just said to me today, you know, we're gonna focus on winning, you focus on TikToking, you know, and and I think there's some validity to that. The championship mindset is what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about everybody's mindset. Life is a pyramid, and Coach Moreno and I have talked about this. The pyramid starts with the bottom, and that's everybody. Everybody's at the bottom, you start at the bottom, then you get to the middle. Those are the guys who are pretty good, and there's a lot less of those. Then you get to the top part, and there's only a handful of those. Now, if you want to be with the one percenter, or you want to be the one above the one percent, that's a championship mindset. Now, if you don't have a championship mindset, then you can't have a methodology. And if you don't have a methodology, you're not gonna be a champion. You're gonna be uh almost champion, you're gonna be a guy that shows up once in a while, medals, but the champion, he wins for a reason. Michael Jordan won for a reason. Mike Johnson ran for a reason.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I I think the I mean, again, we're going off on a tangent here. Like I the definition of a champion is is is almost irrelevant nowadays to most people. To most people. It's all about how many they would be just as happy if they, like you just said, TJ, they go out in the second round, but they have a million likes on their on one of their feeds. And they'll just keep doing that shit.
SPEAKER_00:Who's smarter? Like my my son was asking me about it, right? Like who's smarter? Jake Paul or um Jake Paul or Chavez or Manipacy.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, you that's my point. You know, I mean, people like I I made a million dollars, I'm winning. I made five million dollars, I'm winning. I got sponsorships all over the place, I'm winning. You know, I mean, I I almost think that winning the national championship and winning the world championship and winning the World Cup is almost irrelevant to a huge majority of the people. It's about personal stats, it's about what you know, how many likes they have and what kind of content they're building for other things. I mean, support is almost irrelevant. But can I tell you something?
SPEAKER_00:Can I tell you something that you guys both know this story? So after the Olympics, I came home, went to law school. 1993, 19, whatever. I get a phone call from my agent, right? One was to do a movie, another was to do Mortal Kombat 2, another was to do a television show called Acapulco Gold. I get another call. He says, Hey, they want you to fight in this tournament. And I was still fighting, I was training. I said, What tournament? He says, Well, it's brand new. I said, What are the rules? He goes, There are no rules. I said, Okay, so what does that mean? He goes, Well, there's no rules. You can't buy can eye gouge, it's a new thing. I said, Who's fighting in it? So he reads me the list of names. The only name I recognize is uh is a little known name that was just on the fringe of guy, some guy named Hoyce Gracie, right? And I go, Well, I've heard of the Gracies. I said, How much money is it? So they tell me the money, and I go, How much if I win? They say, No, that's that's if you win. So I said, get out of here. I'm in law school, I'm not gonna fight for that kind of money. So they they upped the money, they up the money, they get to a point, and so then I had a balance in my mind, this small amount of money, which back then was 10 or 20 if I entered, 50 if I won. Right? And fifty thousand dollars back then for me was a lot of money. And I'm like, I could go to this thing, I don't have I don't have any ideas what the rules are. I can probably beat most of the guys because I'm not I can fight. I and I can I also could do stuff that wasn't taekwondo and fight. And then I could uh fight in this format I'm not familiar with and maybe do well or maybe lose. So should I take this money or should I maintain my dignity for my sport and what I do? So I chose obviously the dignity. I commentated the second one, um, and now it's a it's a great sport martial art, whatever you can say whatever you want, plus it's real money. But when you make that decision about fame and or money, had I fought in that, by the way, my uh notoriety outside the sport would have increased exponentially. Win or lose. I would have been that guy in that thing at that time for a number of years, and probably would have fought in a bunch more of them. But I didn't compromise my integrity just to become slightly more famous in something, you know.
SPEAKER_02:But but that again, we're I want to get back to our subject, but that's that was pre-social media. That was pre, that was it was it was pretty easy. It's a lot easier.
SPEAKER_00:So Jake, Jake Paul, Jake Paul calls you up tomorrow, says, I hear you're the toughest mech I can. I'm gonna give you two million dollars. By the way, don't knock me out. Don't knock me out, and I'll give you ten million dollars, right? So do you do you fight it if it's two million dollars? Juan Moreno or TJ?
SPEAKER_07:I I get I get disconnected with the don't knock me out part, but he's like, fight me for two million dollars, I'll go fight Jake Paul for two million dollars for sure. I think it comes to if I was an actual boxer and I box or you say tech one or whatever it is, it'd be hard for me to go, like, I'm not gonna do something on purpose to take the money, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02:And again, I think it's like it's you know, it's a it's a little like uh, I don't know, it's gotta be relevant, like for example, like put it like in in normal context. If he said$20,000, are you gonna do it? You're gonna be like, are you kidding me? You know, so for some of these stars that already make millions of dollars, when they say you're gonna make come and make two million dollars, like, no, I'm not gonna belittle that. But if I was a if I was if I was a real boxer and they and he asked me, I'd be like, you're you're kidd are you kidding me? I'm not I'm not you're beneath me, you know. But anyway, we're getting off the tangent. Let's uh let's talk about under-21s, TJ, because I know you said you're pretty interested in that. What do you I am?
SPEAKER_00:I am you ain't you say under 21s, you're talking about some taekwondo event. You're not just interested in under 21 anything. I I I got sorry. No, no, I'm just checking. This is a family podcast. I just want to know what we're talking about before we go any further.
SPEAKER_07:All right. You're the only person that people complain about on the podcast. We have not found.
SPEAKER_00:Do they complain about me? Really? You're the you're the you're the one. I send the cut send the comments to me. Send the comments. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.
SPEAKER_02:Under 21 worlds, under 21 world championships, which is interesting because now we have the you know junior worlds, we have under 21 worlds, we have the regular worlds. You gotta have I'm not I I like the concept a lot, a lot, a lot. But like right now, I'm looking at this divisions. I think the biggest division is like 35. Um, you know, I don't think it, I don't feel like it's a real world championship. I don't think there's a lot of countries, like, you know, there China's not going, you know, Iran's going, Korea's going, I think Turkey's going, but I don't think France is going. I just don't see a lot of good countries.
SPEAKER_07:I'm surprised China's not there, though. That's weird. Me too. I'm surprised China's not there.
SPEAKER_02:I I think I don't know. Maybe I think that maybe I'm wrong on that. I might be wrong on that. I'm China might have some people.
SPEAKER_07:I'll go to say where I went with the people. They do, they do have some people. Yeah. Um, not the uh I I know for like the women's world championships, like to have the separate event for the women's world championships, you know, to do that and like they already go to the regular world championships. I know the significance is to like, you know, champion women and push the agenda of like you know, women's sports and fighting and stuff like that. It's all it's a little hard for me. I agree with you. It's a little hard for me because they already have a world event. When I look at this under-21, I have to ask, like, I wonder is it how many people that are under 21 are um world champions and uh already world, like real world champions, under 21s. You know what I mean? How many of them are already on the actual podium? Yeah, I forgot to talk about a statistic being lower for ages, right? 19, 20, 21 is like uh the the age of performance right now, according to what I've heard.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah, there could yeah, there could be. It could be some already world medalists that are going that, you know.
SPEAKER_07:Well, you know, uh he can. Yeah, and I'm sure there's a couple more. Michael's going. I mean, there's a bunch of people going that are already on like the world the world podium that are gonna be there at this under 21 event, you know?
SPEAKER_02:I don't know everybody, but I saw like the men's 63 looks like it could be kind of tough. And I think the men's 80 could be tough. Um I think for the United States, I think we have a pretty good chance in 68 and in 74. I mean, I think. I mean, 68 always gets we always say the 60 is is so hard to predict, you know. I mean, our kid Michael, you know, lost again at the Grand Prix first match to us to a 63 guy, you know, to a guy from Uzbekistan. It was a tough match, three rounds, but it can happen, you know. So going to this event, I know there's a uh uh Iranian guy there, there's a Korean, actually the Korean Korean silver medalist is there too from the 68. I think you're right. So there's a few good guys there. There's a pretty good uh Turkish guy. So I don't know, but um I maybe it's the timing of it, maybe because it's so late in the year, yeah, there's been so many things.
SPEAKER_07:I I feel like Do we need an under-21 world championships though? Because I think I like the idea and I like the concept, but I liked it, I would have liked it for the the past like eight years where did they get it from?
SPEAKER_00:Think about where they got it from.
SPEAKER_07:The under-21.
SPEAKER_02:All other sports.
SPEAKER_07:Every other sport does understand. Every other sport does it understand.
SPEAKER_00:But the you should have it if you need it, but if you don't need it, if you're that's like having an under-21 in gymnastics. You should have an under-12 in gymnastics. You you do it, the the peak performance in a sport is what determines when you should have it. So if you have an under-18, maybe that makes sense, an under 17, that makes sense. But at the point where you're an adult, you're an adult division, unless guys are staying in this sport and performing at 30, then there's no reason to have an under-21.
SPEAKER_02:They should have it, TJ. But if you once you fight the regular senior world championships, you can't fight the under-21.
SPEAKER_07:That was like um when they did um the what's it called? The uh, was it what they used to call that? I made that team once in the US, the under-24 team, when they did the under-24 team. Because that and that's true, because our ages were way higher, right? Your national team was 27, 28, they were like you know, full-blown adults. But after but I remember James couldn't go because he made the um James Howell couldn't go because he made the world championship team prior. He was still within the age range, but it disqualified him for the development or under-21 teams.
SPEAKER_02:If the WT is talking about development, we're trying to give these people development, so and it would actually push our sport because it's funny you mentioned gymnastics, young, because gymnastics used to be 12 and 13 year olds, and they said this is not good. And so now it may made the minimum age 15 or something like that. And so all of a sudden you have now 18, 19, and 20-year-olds, you have girls that are in college that are much older, different body frames, they change their sport from these little skinny girls to these big, strong girls now, normal looking people, and and they're doing just fine. So I mean, look at Simone Biles is 27. What is she, 26, 27? So I think that look, you want to have juniors and under 17 under World Championship, that's fine. 17 to 21 world championship, it's a four-year thing, that's fine. And that 21 up is full-blown seniors. Now, if for some reason a national team selects some kid at 19 years old because they think he's good and go to the Olympics, and he goes to the he's you can let him fight the 21 up, he can't go to the 21 and under, if it makes sense. That does not have to be. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_07:I think so. I think I think once you yeah, I think so.
SPEAKER_02:Keep it development, keep it developmental. You shouldn't have a Enhike shouldn't be there. He's a world champion. He shouldn't be fighting there, even though I know he's fighting in a different division. That's not correct.
SPEAKER_07:That's not correct. Yeah, it doesn't make that that from that standpoint, it doesn't make much sense at all.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think they they need a new division that's 65 born in December, specifically between the 6th and 10th. And um and and and in California, so I can and the rounds should be 30 seconds. I'll do I'll do three rounds. And uh and I shouldn't you shouldn't have to fight more than two fights. So if they start that world championship, I'm coming back. Unless, of course, they have an open division where I get to fight TJ, because I've been waiting for that match. Let's go! Did I did I ever give you advice when you were young? Did I ever give you any advice?
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, you told me not to wear shirts that look like that, and you clearly went off that advice. You were like, don't wear crazy shirts.
SPEAKER_00:I talked to you once or twice, I remember, but I don't think I gave you any technical advice because I didn't want to overstep.
SPEAKER_02:Um so listen, 21s, I think is gonna it should be interesting. I'm just not, I don't know, maybe I'm taekwondoed out right now. Um so we'll see.
SPEAKER_07:I'm gonna watch it because I'm gonna watch it. But I got my my young boy, my 50, my 54 kids there for Puerto Rico. So Brandon was gonna be fighting. I think he fights on Friday over there, which I think is Thursday. But I like that for him because I think he's at the point where we're developing and growing, and those are those are monumental adventures, and that's probably one of the biggest events he's ever been to in his life, you know? So it's a little bit different take on that.
SPEAKER_02:Again, I I agree with you for a kid like him, people in his position, I think is good. Our our 54 uh national team kid from Brazil, Mateus, he's pretty good. He lost in the quarterfinals at Worlds. He's going there, I think is good for him because you know he had a good world championship, but he still needs, I mean, he's not there yet. He's not, you know, I can't go, oh my god, he's a bona fide world medal potential kind of guy. He needs more of these type of things, you know. So I uh I think it's pretty good for those guys.
SPEAKER_00:Can I ask you a question about the setup for all these World Cups and Pan Am and Grand Prix? When you see all those screens and stuff, is that provided by the organizing committee or is that provided by the WT? Organizing committee. They all have to figure that out by themselves.
SPEAKER_02:They do, and then uh they have a the WT has a um a committee that you know kind of runs their programs through all their different stuff and everything, you know. So it is a collaboration, but yeah, for example, we didn't have that. We didn't at in the Grand Prix, and we had signage and stuff like that. But yeah, you go to China and you go to Thailand and you see that stuff, man. It's that's top-notch. That's one thing I gotta give them a lot of credit for. They make that stuff look pretty darn cool, you know, coming out on the stage and your faces and and demographic or not demographics, graphics and stuff like that of points and everything. So that's that's what that's what made it interesting for me, I think.
SPEAKER_07:That was cool to see all the, I think that's what kind of to see all the points popping up with like the different levels. I think that system made it feel like the system was at least working consistently, you know. Maybe not points, but like you see it go eight, you see it go 12. I know they've done it in the past, but this one just seemed a little bit uh cleaner or or more visible on understanding it was easier.
SPEAKER_02:It was like they had a good setup. I mean, I I I think that these people they they yeah, they just had a good setup. The stadium was pretty good, so I mean, I don't know. I it was good, it's freezing in there. Every every stadium was freezing.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know why. You're you're shocked at how multi-purpose his shirt is. I got a little demon over there, and there's cousins over here. You guys should be hating. I know you're gonna want one of these. I don't know what's on the back. What's on the back? Is that the back of the face?
SPEAKER_07:It's just that's just his face again. I'm just baffled.
SPEAKER_00:I'll send you one. I got a couple. You should wait till you see next week's.
SPEAKER_02:And then the the weeds, the beads, uh, I think you use them for something else, but I'll I'll talk about that kind of stuff on air. Oh see, take them out.
SPEAKER_07:Um, yeah, so it should be interesting. I I I'm gonna obviously I'll watch under 21s and I'll I'll I'm gonna watch it, of course. I just it seems like you said, I think it's just because of the placement and late in the year.
SPEAKER_00:I think there's a I think there's a Podcast podcast uh clip in there. I'm gonna watch the under 21s. I'm gonna clip that one out.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Under-21 world championships to be specific.
SPEAKER_07:Under 21 Taekwondo world championships in Kenya.
SPEAKER_02:In Kenya. Is it in Kenya? Really? Is it now? I don't know. Naomi? Naomi. Naomi.
SPEAKER_00:If you get a trip, that's a trip you want to go on and try to do a safari or there's some amazing uh stuff in Kenya. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:What is that? Starts on the second. Starts on Tuesday night here. December.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. Yeah. Now, yeah, yeah. This week. Oh, yeah. It's amazing. Yeah, Wednesday.
SPEAKER_00:Well, it's certainly not new. It's not Muju. What did you say, coach?
SPEAKER_02:No. No, I mean they have their coaching staff selected. They I actually I want to I don't know if uh if I'm wrong in that team trial stuff. Someone sent me a team trial thing, the selection procedures, how they changed it from Why did they change it from world to Olympic now? No, for Olympic to world.
SPEAKER_07:We went from Olympic to world. But from what someone was trying, I don't say someone's trying to tell me that one of the documents before it said um it said that it was it said world originally, and then some second document came out where they put the wrong word for Olympic and yada yada blah blah blah blah blah. I don't care about none of that. I just don't understand. I mean, I just for me, I don't understand why we shouldn't be closing off divisions right now. I don't think there's anything to protect right now. I just I really, really, really don't. Um obviously, and I think it makes it, again, we talk about a lot, but it makes it unfair. I mean, we're looking at all the grand prize that have been funded for the athletes to go to. You're looking at all the obviously the people that made the world championship team, all the opens they've gone to. Like, of course, obviously, I mean the goal would be for them to be top, whatever, was it top six? Top six, top ten. Yeah, I think it was top ten, even. Was it top ten? Top ten. Whatever. Yeah, but whatever. I mean, like, obviously, with the point reset, that's a pretty high possibility if we're having any level of success. I think we have was it four male divisions? Four male divisions will be uncontested. Well, they'll they'll they'll fight for second place. Some of those people within um within those divisions have wild cards previously from whether it be the president's cup or the um this, whatever it is. They have wild cards already from the under-21 in some cases and stuff like that. So it's just it's just it's just a little funky to me that we would close off the division and not let people actually they're gonna pay for those guys anyway in some of those divisions. You're gonna pay for the 68, you're gonna pay for the 74. I just understand why you wouldn't open a division, have those guys take the wild card, open a division to fight for an actual national team spot and have more people going to the event.
SPEAKER_02:If you thought it through that the the organization should do that. Um I just, you know, again, I mean, going back to my original thing, like someone forgot that this this was in there, that was in there. I mean, I just think that it has to be more professional. I think when when you when it comes out November 3rd after World Championships, that it it looks like it was changed, and then someone has to explain that it was written somewhere else a different way. That just seems like you gotta click links for it don't work. Yeah, or it just seems like amateur, like like how how did it get changed in the meantime? If it was already printed correctly, how did it get printed incorrectly, and then that you had to retract it, and it just seems a little bit messy, a little bit sloppy, and for all the transparency that they have, it it looks a little strange. And I will go with you, TJ said with the points resetting, with the points resetting back to zero, you know, after this Pan American thing.
SPEAKER_07:That's what I was gonna ask you. That's what I was gonna ask you. So is the Pan Am Championships will happen first and then the reset, right?
SPEAKER_02:All all the continental championships for the WT by those are before. So what are we doing? Why? Yeah, we were protecting we're protecting for four months. Shit.
SPEAKER_07:I mean, if you uh again, I know we talked about it a little bit before, but I remember how we used to treat the Pan Am Championships in certain situations as like uh it was it was a development tournament. I we we didn't even consider even making the Pan Am Championship team a national team. You just made the Pan Am Championship team. You were not a national team member, you were not going to World Championships, you just went to that event. And we did another for a couple years, we did interesting things. I know they did that training camp one year. We did the obviously if they had an event, the second place person went most cases because the first place person decided not to go, whatever the case may be. But like for it for that Pan Am Championships to happen and then go to zero, I mean, you'd almost want like all new kids there. I mean, in my head, I'd want I'd want a whole new group at this Pan Am Championship. People like because we have to figure something out, no?
SPEAKER_02:And that's in it's in May, and the points reset in June. So literally, you could have an under-21 team, you could have a development team. You know what I'm saying? You could uh you could do a lot of these new things because it does nothing. It's like I can understand I can make an argument for a G4 40 points, you gotta win this, but it does nothing for you. Like nothing. So that's what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_07:And we're going all back the opposite way and closing the division off saying, Well, this person's top six, top ten, so we're not gonna fight for a real spot. Do you know how tough that is? Like, again, and this kind of hits so close home. I got guys in those the in those divisions that don't get to go fight now. Like, we went through all the qualifications, we've done the the regionals, the this, the that, all these the nationals, dumb things that don't make any sense in most cases at this point. And now we're here and we don't even get a chance to make the team. They say, Let's pay our money to go fight for second place. Like, yeah, you know, and I'm sure we'll still be there, and I'm sure we'll still go fight, but it's just it's it's obnoxious for the the growth of the system and knowing that the tournament's gonna equal to nothing. It's a good point. It's a really good point.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I don't know what I again, I don't know their, I don't know the mindset, I don't know what the the philosophy. I I know that's what like all of our guys that are, for example, in Brazil, I hate to say this all the time, but almost all of our main guys, like you know, Nichino, uh Enrique, Milena, Maria, uh, Icaro, just keep going up to everybody. They they all got wild cards already. So none of them will fight in the team trials. And the team trials will go, and those people make the Pan Am team. We're still fund those people. So instead of having one person in the division, because we can make our you know guys fight off, but no, we we say you guys go as the wild cards. We still but we still know who you are. They still know who CJ is, they still know who Christina is, they're still the top guns in the country. Let these other people go, make the national team, and everyone's good.
SPEAKER_07:You know, I mean, I know I think per their selection procedure, just don't call it the national team. Call it the, I don't know, use some weird words, some replacement stuff. You know, say the national team. Because you already wrote the Pan Championship team. You're in the Pan Am Championship team. And leave it like that. Doesn't change anything for anyone. We get more representation, we get more. You want to talk about giving people opportunities to fight, you get more opportunities to go fight there. I just it's backwards to me, though. That part makes no sense to me at all.
SPEAKER_00:All right, we got anything else we want to get to. We're going on an hour here because TJ talked for about 90 minutes today.
SPEAKER_02:Ah listen, guys, I missed you guys. I know we uh you know we're getting wrapping up towards the end of the year and stuff like that. So I'd like to, you know, maybe for the next couple weeks, you know, make sure we we talk about the year in whole and kind of you know No, because really I think that you know we started this thing and and you know it uh I think it was for the right reasons, you know, to talk about issues that people don't talk about, to to call some things out that you know should be called out. And I think that we need to, you know, keep our keep the integrity of what we what we set out to do, you know, and again, it's never personal. I mean, even if just because you say something that people may not like doesn't mean that it's it's personal, and that's the truth of mattering. So um I think that uh that's weak people. It is, it is, but um, you know, you hear it once in a while. I mean, I've heard, like I said, so many good things. But anyway, my point is let's uh let's think of some good wrap-up topics and stuff like that. And you know, people that you know, when they listen to this, go ahead and put it in the comments and stuff like that. If you're something you guys want to hear us talk about that we haven't talked about, or something that we need to talk more about, let us know and uh we'll we'll try to attack it in the last couple weeks of of the year.
SPEAKER_07:Well, let's how long we've been doing this, how long we've been doing this? How many, how many, how many, how many months or how long has it been?
SPEAKER_00:It's been a minute. I'll go back and look at it, but I have a numbering system. I'll have to go back. But it's been a minute, it's been a while. It's been all year, right? Yeah, I believe so. And we try to be fairly consistent. What I'm gonna do in the new year is start a new season with a new numbering system. Um, and this way we can kind of keep up to it because you know, we had to make sure it was gonna be successful. I think it's been really well received. I um if you have people talking about you, that's usually means it's well received. And if you have people talking poorly about you, it's even been more well received. So, you know, um I don't think that we've shied away from any topic, and I think that what we say is true. I mean, I think we're speaking truth. I don't want to say to power, because I don't think any of those guys have any power, but I think we're speaking truth to the situation. And you don't have to like what we say, but it doesn't mean it's not true. I've told you I'm listening to this podcast about this revolutionary singer from Nigeria, and as I listened to it more, his message was truth, right? He was talking about the truth of the political situation back there when he was, and this is what it is. I just got back from Muju where I talked to, I gave this lecture to um 300 and 350 guys dressed in pink jackets, and then Dr. Caprin did the same thing, and he his topic was about Koreans have destroyed taekwondo. They created taekwondo and they've destroyed it, so now they need to fix it. You broke it and you fix it. Okay, well, it went. Um, you know, but I looked around the room, and you know who wasn't in the room were Koreans. So it was virtually every other ethnicity, uh, with the exception of the organizer, there was maybe one or two Koreans. Um, and it was in the homeland of Taekwondo at the at the Mecca of Taekwondo. My conversation was about the electronic chest protector and its deficiency to the sport and its detramental effect. And the two two most applauded presenters were Dr. Capner and I. And so I think as long as we continue to carry the message forward, then there's hope for change. You know, and I think you've got to call the people out, which we have done. And then on the other side, we can congratulate the the people. I will say this now so it's on the record. There's a strong likelihood that some of the people we mentioned will go on to win Olympic medals, maybe even Olympic gold medal. And I pray for them to that be the case. Now, in the meanwhile, if that's, you know, I will continue to say what I say about those individuals, not individual, individuals, and until they prove me wrong. And then when they prove me wrong, I'll be the first person to say that was a talented individual that got his act together and found better coaching. Right now, I can't say that. I can't say they have the best coaching, nor do they have the best coaching situation. I'm talking specifically about the U.S. And in that situation, I'll continue to say that message. I think there's a plan to fix that. Um, and I hope somebody hears it. More importantly, I hope the U.S. Olympic Committee wakes up from its stupor because it's definitely in a stupor where it's not paying attention to taekwondo and and what's going on in it. And if they do wake up, then maybe you'll see some changes over the next three years. But I think we have to continue this year to preach the gospel to those that are willing to hear it.
SPEAKER_07:Well, what's up, TJ? No, I was gonna say, I think next um, I know today what's the um Sunday, maybe later this week, even we should go through that document, though, the one that you wrote. I read it through it on Facebook um piece by piece, but I think we should maybe take 20, 30 minutes and uh I think it's I I think it's a worthwhile conversation, and I think we'll get to it this week.
SPEAKER_00:All right, well, with that said, it's been an hour and 11 minutes, of which I talked about 11, and TJ talked about an hour. This has been the warehouse 15. TJ, say hello to your mom for me. And this has been the warehouse 15, and we are out. Ladies, Cherry Cuny.
SPEAKER_04:We aren't judging by eye anymore, sunshine. The machine knows the truth. You walked in the dojan with your camera crew, editing the clips for a like or two. Your belt looks crisp, yeah. You tied it neat, but you got no magnets in your feet. You focused on the flash on the aesthetic flow. But can you trigger the threshold when you go toe-to-toe? I see your shadow box and looking real cute. But against the energy charting old, you go mute.
SPEAKER_03:No edit button when the stanzas are live, only the accurate and the strong survive. You thought you were a master. Man you would just see. Sorry, not sorry, sunshine. Step to the square meter, back stay. Yeah, you've been played your first tick. Get back to the gym to kick rather than track.
SPEAKER_05:You're doing things for it's hitting nothing but air. I'm putting points on the board. Life isn't fair. Dado, don't lie, the system is coded. Don't care about the followers, the stories you told your barely grades, the fabric's often weak. I'm hearing the beep every time that I speak.
SPEAKER_03:My sensor hits the vest, the lights turn back. Why you still try to spin on your head? Don't reach for your car, don't ask for a replay. The video shows you inspire my anyway. You can't fake the power of the sensor in the easy.