Masters Alliance
9th Dan BlackBelt and Olympic Gold Medalist Herb Perez visit with the best and brightest to bring clarity to the future of Martial arts.
Masters Alliance
If Results Are Guaranteed, What Does Winning Mean
If your second match is already a quarterfinal, something’s off. We dive into the under-21 world championships and ask the hard questions: why did the level feel flat, why were so many divisions thin, and how did scheduling and selection choices undercut real development? From Iran’s clinical efficiency to Turkey’s grit, we highlight who set the standard and where the gaps showed for everyone else.
We unpack the difference between medals and performance, arguing that progress isn’t proven by soft brackets or byes. Our take: cap the number of point-chasing opens, randomize draws at minor events, rank the true majors, and move to a single-bronze repechage that forces athletes to win their last match. If under-21 is a bridge to the senior world, it should test resilience, adaptation, and game identity—not reward kick-and-hope strategies.
Then we get into the culture behind the mats. Why are experienced coaches shut out of “high-performance” calls? How did national communication morph into “academy athlete” branding that blurs country and club? We make the case for a transparent coach pipeline with staged roles—cadets, juniors, U21, seniors—so athletes aren’t learning the biggest lessons at the same time as their coaches. Performance culture means setting markers, backing people to meet them, and making changes when the needle doesn’t move.
You’ll hear frank match analysis, concrete reforms, and a clear throughline: athletes deserve honest tests, coaches deserve a real pathway, and the community deserves transparency. If you care about Taekwondo development, fairness in selection, and results that stand up at senior level, this conversation pulls no punches.
If this resonates, tap follow, share with a teammate or coach, and leave a review with the one change you’d make first.
Welcome to the warehouse 15. We had an error or a glitch. It's been a troubling morning this morning. We had to have a morning prayer and we had to show the moon of Arizona to most of the people on the phone. And so uh we are back, and it is a spiritual place. The deserts of Arizona looks a lot like Colorado Springs, where we spent a lot of time honing our ability to understand each other and do taekwondo. But I am joined by my two brothers, the captain and the generals of sorry, not sorry. Good morning, Mr. TJ. What do you got?
SPEAKER_04:Good morning, good morning, sir. How are you?
SPEAKER_03:Oh, I'm always good, always good. How about you, Coach Moreno?
SPEAKER_00:Good, I'm good. I like a little traumatized from our morning, uh, morning uh sunrise, sunset, moon, whatever it was. I'm not quite sure.
SPEAKER_03:That was a rough one.
SPEAKER_00:Sometimes you could call warehouse 15 HR to get, you know, uh some uh sometimes you gotta start it off with something to wake people up.
SPEAKER_03:You know, there's that joke, I think what was it? Would you rather pull on the bunny's ears or the elephant's nose? Do you remember the elephant's trunk? Kiss the bunnies, kiss the bunny's nose.
SPEAKER_00:Hey, speaking of sorry, not sorry, it's funny. I I it's so cool. Like when you walk around like you know, some of these events and stuff like that around among Taekwondo people, and they're like, hey, sorry, not sorry. They all kind of throw out the tagline to us. I'm like, that's pretty cool. You know, people are listening and stuff, so it's pretty funny. I don't know if that you you've got a few of those, TJ?
SPEAKER_04:I'm sure. I got a couple of them. It's always funny. It's always a statement and then hashtag sorry not sorry. That's just how people talk to me now.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah. There you go.
SPEAKER_03:Well, this was the brain channel of both of you, so I'm glad that we decided to do this and be taekwondo specific. I had gone in a different direction and was having some very serious conversations with serious people. Now we have the three most I actually told Dr. Schiller about this. I said, Yeah, we have this podcast where three Olympians talk about the state of affairs in our sport. So um I had interviewed him in one of my podcasts a long time ago, so he might become a frequent flyer, first-time listener, longtime subscriber. So we'll see.
SPEAKER_00:That'd be cool. Listen, I you know, it's funny because I said at the end of last show that, you know, I I thought you know quite a bit about this because you know, we've we've been doing this for a little bit now, and um, you know, we we brought bring up some pretty hot topics and stuff like that. And you know, I think it was well intended. Um, and some people take it the right way, some people take it the wrong way. But I I I think I had a private conversation with both of you guys. I want to be a voice. You know, I want to be a voice to, you know, for the people that can't speak up or don't want to speak up for fear of retribution, whether it's politically or financially or whatever the case may be, because I feel like there's a bunch of sheep out there, you know, and they they would be they could be led in a different direction, you know, and um if nothing was going perfectly right, then I really wouldn't have much to say. But I don't want to I don't want to lose that um that focus, you know, for for this podcast right now until it gets better. If it gets better, we move on to the next thing, you know, right now, you know. So um I don't know. I'm just kind of you know talking. We're gonna get into some some topics a little bit later, and I think it'll be, you know, again, another come to Jesus type of uh uh conversation, and you know, hopefully it'll make a difference for some people. I don't know.
SPEAKER_03:I think that's what takes the courage. I I do have to ask one question before we start. I'm noticing that your background is very um very lit and nice and whatever. And my background, no in a hotel it is, but TJ, you look like you're in the love boat or something. Like the love boat, like doctor. I feel like you're Dr. Love. I had to Well, what time is it? Is it like 12 p.m. at night or something, or 12 a.m. in the morning?
SPEAKER_04:It's like it's a very uh very dark gray area.
SPEAKER_03:Is this where you go like to meditate?
SPEAKER_04:This is a calming room. Yes. All right, let me see if I can.
SPEAKER_01:No, sit down. Sit down, don't stand up. DJ, you got a glow. You got that red glow on you. Like you look like you're like, wow, to go, wow, wow.
SPEAKER_03:I'm waiting for him. I think like it's like jungle fever, the movie. I'm waiting for him to go, this this is Dr. Love. This is Love. Oh, good. We're gonna play, we're gonna play some tunes for Marvin Game. It's gonna be a long time. Oh my god. All right, brothers. Let's get on with it. Let's get on with it. What we got?
SPEAKER_00:I think we talked about it a little bit yesterday or the other day, and we didn't really know how it was gonna look, but I want to start off with the overall uh you know, overall thoughts on the um the level, you know, uh at the 20 under 21 World Championships. I mean, I've watched um most of the the people that I know, whether it's you know from this country or from another country, you know, try to watch their matches, and then if they moved on and continued with them, if they didn't, you know, kind of watch the people that they lost to. And uh I don't know. I mean, my first stab at it is I'm gonna be honest with you, I'm just being real, keep it 100, is I'm under, I'm unimpressed. Um, I'm really unimpressed. I I was really expecting some wild, I mean, because I know the junior world championships can get wild. These kids are like out there slinging. And I thought, man, this is gonna be like one step up before they kind of calm down at the senior level, right? Where you get a little bit more sophisticated, more step-by-step kind of game plan. And once in a while there's a wild match, but I just thought there was gonna be a bunch of kids throwing havoc to the wind, and it was it was not that. I mean, I actually saw like some, I mean, you're gonna love this, yo. I saw some bad fights, some bad taekwondo. I saw a lot of like boring matches and just like a not a lot of like a lot of, you know, there was you know, a couple, we'll talk about some athletes later, but generally speaking, I was a little unimpressed. I don't know what you think, TJ. With your initial thoughts.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, the matches I watched, I mean, I I'm I'm the same as you. I don't think I it was almost a glorified junior level with me, if I'm being quite honest with you. There wasn't really a lot going on. I mean, there's obviously you got your couple standout people in countries and and athletes in certain situations, but it just felt a little bit low-level to be the under-21 world championships. And I don't know if that had to do with the placement of where it was on the calendar, like you were talking about before, like how late in the year it was or what, but just across the board, like I would say a little underwhelming. Um, definitely you have some divisions go into quarterfinal second match for under-21 world championship. Like, that's just the second match can't be core. I know, I know, I know. Like, so I just think the participation is maybe too low, but also, like I said, it I I I was I told Coach Moreno earlier, I'm like, man, this is what uh the Grandmaster be talking about sometimes right here because you watch it and you're like waiting for something to happen, or anticipation of like a style or like an exertion or a push or something. It just looks like a lot of people are just kicking and hope, hope it, hope it scores, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, I I'll say, I mean, let me say that you know, first and foremost, the participation level. Like when you have a bye and your second fight is in the quarterfile, that's ridiculous. Like, I can't imagine winning one two matches and knowing that you're in the bronze medal match. Not on a world championship level. Maybe an open, maybe a Pan Am, maybe African, maybe European, maybe an Asian, whatever, but come on.
SPEAKER_04:That's we wouldn't even say that before at an open. We wouldn't even say that before at an open. We just this is a new age, this is a new age level of acceptance of going to a tournament and and and fighting one fight in quarters and then being in the semifinals. Like it's crazy.
SPEAKER_00:I also think that it seems like not a lot of people took this seriously. I mean, Iran men look like they took it serious. Um, the Turkish overall look like they took it serious, and then there's a couple pockets here and there, but there's no real there's Italy's not here. There's not a big Serbian contingent, there's not a big Croatian contingent, the Spanish team doesn't look that great. Like none of the big European countries and Asia. I mean, you got Korea didn't even have a minus 58. Like that's crazy fly weight. Like there's not even a fly weight there. So, you know, and in their in their their women's side is you know pretty weak. I don't think they won a gold medal. Did they win a gold medal? I don't know, but it it's definitely not overwhelming. So it's a little straight. No China, no Thailand, no Philippines. Now they do have the C games over there, actually, I think this week as well. That's big for them. It's kind of like the Central American Games or South American games, so it's kind of big over there. But just generally speaking, I think the numbers are small. The level is not it's nowhere near as high as I I had anticipated. And I'm gonna say one more thing. I think that you know it's gonna take maybe one or two of these for people to take it serious to kind of figure it out and say it's important.
SPEAKER_04:I think you made a good point earlier, though. I I think for for what it is, I don't know if it's a country selection thing, but I don't think you should have the same person fighting the world championships and fighting the under-21. I don't know if it's same year, same whatever, but if the overall goal of the organization is creating these events to push growth, right? I would assume that's why you create an under-21. Um, I don't think they they gotta not allow world champions and and people that have fought at the world championships to fight the under-21. Within a certain calendar year, let's say that.
SPEAKER_00:Certainly not medalist. You know, like if you're going from here, you that's a if it's a developmental stage, that's what the that's what Cadet Jr. under 21 is developmental to the to the world championships and to the Olympic Games. No one should be able to go back. I mean, there's there's three world champions that are fighting in this event. One, 58 from Korea, uh, from Iran, demolished everybody. That wasn't even close. That was demolished everybody. And tomorrow there's two. There's a Tunisian girl that won the junior world championships, then she won the senior world championships, and now she's fighting here. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that she's gonna smoke this field like with no problem. And then the Brazil kid Enrique is actually fighting here, but he is to his credit, he's fighting a heavier weight. He's not fighting 80. If he would have fought 80 the other day, oh that that that was that was not a good one.
SPEAKER_04:Who won eighty?
SPEAKER_00:Oh my gosh, my brains. Uh let me think about it for a second. Oh my gosh, why can't I think? It was USA. Was it Spain beat USA? Oh, uh Iran.
SPEAKER_04:Iran beat uh Iran beat uh I didn't watch that final yet.
SPEAKER_00:Something positive. Yeah, sorry. So anyway, I just think it's gonna take a couple you know, countries you know, a little bit to take it seriously. And you're right, I mentioned that. I think at the end of the year, after the world championships, you know, in you know, in December, I think the timing of it is just kind of like federations have you know you know used their budget and and all that kind of stuff. But I mean, kind of talking like that, like the outstanding athletes. I I saw I wrote down a note. I just saw it this morning. I so what was today? Today was 67. Today 67?
unknown:67.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, six six seven.
SPEAKER_01:Camila would have loved it.
SPEAKER_00:No, I saw this Russian girl do like this, like cut up out to the face. She got it cut to the face, and she jumped and did the other leg to the face. I was like, for a heavy, a welterweight girl, I was like, I was kind of impressed by that. Uh I thought it was pretty uh pretty good. Like I said, the the Iranian 58, I mean, it's it's not even fair. This guy beats people like they stole their lunch money, man. His boy ain't taking his coach playing.
SPEAKER_04:His coach looked bored in a chair. Like, why am I here? He could have been anywhere else in the world, but sit in that chair. It wouldn't have made a difference.
SPEAKER_01:That boy looked like he had gambling debts. He's like, No, I gotta get the shit paid off. He's like, because it wasn't enough. He's like, go, go, and he boom! He was like nasty.
SPEAKER_04:It wasn't even close. Not like it.
SPEAKER_00:You see the little that little 49 girl from Russia, the one that came out at the Grand Prix Channel, she won. She won a gold medal. She's nasty too. So and I think tomorrow, like I said, tomorrow Inhike and the and the Tunisian girls, I mean, for me, you know, they're they're pretty darn good. But I mean, we'll see on paper. I know my my guy's got um he's got Turkey first match, Russia second match, and probably Iran in the quarterfinal. So that's but I don't know why I like that though.
SPEAKER_04:And especially because it's because it's an 87 too. I think it's just like it's okay. I don't know. After seeing the bracket, it's okay. You know what I mean? It's just the hard way, like the good way, you know, get a little bit more work in. That's cool. That's cool.
SPEAKER_00:So the US had two medals already. Um, I think it's was was pretty cool. I mean, we had uh surprise in the 80, I think, because I don't think you know many people. I mean, the athlete's pretty good, but you know, it all depends on the draw. And he had a very good draw. He lost to Spain in the in the in the semis um in the third round. So I mean he was you know kind of close. His first couple matches, he had same thing, buying two matches to get into the semifinal, which is kind of like I mean, when you look at the I'm always a numbers guy. Okay, you were two and one in your third best in the world. Really? You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't I don't know what that really says, you know. Um, and then Victor, I want to talk about Victor, uh, TJ. Uh young, I talked about this kid before. I said he's a um young kid, he fights 74, which is one below uh the 80. Uh and he fought in some of the Grand Prix, he's done pretty well. Um but he got here and he um he fought Iran in the in the semis. Um he fought uh probably a good first round. I think it was it turned out to be 7-7. He was winning and took a couple deductions, and the guy actually kind of caught up, but anyway, he won 7-7 on superiority. But comes out the second round against Iran and it was eight to one easy, like with no resistance. The one point was from a uh deduction that the the uh Iranian guy took. Very easy, very controlled. And the second third round, going you know, it's one round apiece, it's 14 to 1. 14 to 0, and he takes a deduction just to you know just to finish the clock. And so I'm like, what happened from being up 7-2 and have this guy make a comeback and tie it, you know, 7-7, but you win to for all practical purposes, 8-0, 14-0. Did you watch the match, TJ?
SPEAKER_04:I did. I did. I did. Like I said, the only part I missed, I have to go back and watch half of the first round. I did see the score of 7-7. I watched the second and third round. I just for what I've seen from him in the past, I feel like he never in that fight, he never got going. You know what I mean? After the second round. When the second round started, he just never got going really. I know he's a special kid and he does some stuff and he he creates a lot of opportunity through some things that he does. And I just feel like there was no uh no, he went away from that for whatever lack of better reason was. He went away from that a little bit. And I think that because when I saw the Iran Kid in the second round, I wasn't convinced that this guy had enough for him, you know? It didn't look like he should have enough for him. Because I've seen Victor overwhelm some people, hit some people, knock him out of bounds, kind of just kind of tough him a little bit and find his way through. But there was once the once the separation started, there was no change in gear, no like no no big shots, a couple big shots at the end, but like just in trash time, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's a good point. I you know, when I watched the first round, it seemed like the Korean guy, I just tried the Korean guy, the Iranian guy took a little time to get started, and once he got started, he scored pretty easily. And then, but it almost seemed like he was kind of thrown off, like he just didn't know how to figure him out. Just kind of like it's kind of strange, and he didn't have enough time and he lost that first round. But in the second round, his tempo, his distance, his twist kicks, I mean, it was just methodical. Like I went, I I watched, I'm gonna say it was five in a row. Touch, touch, touch, touch, and the six-one, he finally got the point. But I was like, that's a lot a lot. Every time he kicked, there was a touch. It didn't score, but it registered on the on the scoreboard. I'm like, man, this guy's getting like six, five, six, seven touches, you know, before he scores. I'm like, that's wild. So he won that second round, and I feel like he totally figured them out. And I expected, you know, Victor, because Victor's a he's a gamer. I think he liked the this he likes to fight. He's he's he's creative, like he's a little scrappy, but I think you're right, TJ. It seemed like he played the Iranian style, kind of like that flippy, floppy kind of distance instead of his explosion type stuff, because he hits people clean cuts.
SPEAKER_04:Clean up.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:He didn't get into his space enough, I felt like. You know what I mean? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Then it was just out of time, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Piece by piece. Um I don't know. I still wasn't convinced that a running guy was that good, though. Like I couldn't, I didn't it took me to the third round to go, oh, he's hitting him a lot more than I thought. You know what I mean? In the in the spacing coming forward in between afterwards, that type of stuff. But I think it took me to about the third round to kind of see it. But I think to me, he looked a little tired, just a little bit.
SPEAKER_00:He certainly, I mean, the running guy certainly wasn't overwhelming, but his efficiency was pretty good. And he just looked like he was on cruise control. He didn't look like he was bothered by anything. Nothing that was coming at him did I he seemed like uh which again, this is surprising to me because I just thought that um I had Victor winning though. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:I had Victor in the finals. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Listen, I I I had two, I had two people that I you know thought would win on the men's side, and one was to fighting tomorrow and one is you know fought today. And I uh I don't know. I don't know if that's a bad drop or if it's uh you know tough match or or what, but um I had him winning. You know, he's he's he's had enough you know, quarterfinals at World Championships, you know, get into the semifinals and Grand Prix challenges, you know, I winning a lot of European opens. I thought that he was actually built for this event, especially with the size of it. Especially with the size of it.
SPEAKER_04:I think he's better. I get I know I know obviously we talk medals and results, but at the division, to me, he's better than the field. You know what I mean? At that event in this situation, he's better. He was better than the field. That's because we said I've seen him perform in some other moments too. A little bit bigger, a lot more, a lot harder.
SPEAKER_00:So let me let me let me ask you this, young. I I'll pose this question to you. So you guys know how I feel about medals. You know, I'm more of a performance guy, but what do we say about when when our uh any athlete for that matter doesn't pass the test, they get to the semifinal, they run into a tough fighter, and they don't pass the test. And I know you had to get to the semifinals, but let's let's call it what it is. If if it was an easy draw or you were just better and you won those matches, I mean, is that I don't think that that's the measuring stick, right? I mean, the measuring stick is when you get to people your level. Maybe people a little bit better than you. Can you can you take that next step? And like I I don't know, I'm gonna ask, I mean, do some of the domestic players here in this country do they rely or do they need good draws to get to the semifinal and get that bronze medal, silver medal? You know, or I mean, do we know I'm can we can we can we talk about some that say, hey, this guy beat this really tough gamer in the second fight and then beat this guy in the quarterfinal? You know what I'm saying? Like head, let's be honest. What if your div your your bracket was Iran, Russia, Korea before you got to the semifinals? What do you think?
SPEAKER_03:So I mean, you know, we've we've always had that mentality Um, at least the US had it for a long time, which was you gotta beat them at some point, right? So if you have a draw where you have the toughest guy up front, back, whatever, it doesn't really matter, you're gonna have to beat them at some point. So I don't think that we ever hoped for an easy draw. And in fact, I think we preferred not to have an easy draw for a bunch of reasons. If you're gonna beat somebody, it's sometimes better to beat them early before they get their confidence up or before they get their game on. As far as um what does that speak to the method, you know, and without you know, slamming any particular country in general, if you're making metal performers and gold medal performers, then your mind your mindset has to be that of a metal performer. So you're not as worried about who you have to play or fight first, you're worried about how do I get through my day without getting injured and have enough energy to get through the day to do what I need to do, technically. Um, and I think that's something that's taught. And if it's not taught, you know, if all you ever do, in most sports, um they play situational drills. So if you look at football, they do the last 10-yard drill, the red zone drill. You the last, you need the two yards and it's fourth down, whatever. So they work on these scenarios. If all you do in general is just work on training and winning, in what particular scenario, that's just not how the game works. It's not how the game has ever worked, right? Um I don't remember, I mean, I'd have to go back and think about it. Most of my competition career, the Korean was in on the upper other side of the pool for me. He was always on the br on the bronze medal side with me or on the gold medal side with me. And the other countries I'd have to think about, but um the sole exception to that are like Olympics and Pan Amps, because the field is just smaller, right? And you get those guys earlier. But the mentality was different in the sense that we respect performance, but at the end of the day, if you can't close the loop on it and you're happy to be a bronze medalist, you can have the best performance in the world, but you still haven't opened that particular piece of the puzzle. You're not a one, a one percenter. And that's just cultural. And um I mean, I gotta be honest, I can remember times when we won gold medals and we came home and nobody cared. Nobody celebrated it, right? It was expected, you know, for the next tournament, whatever it was. Does that make any sense?
SPEAKER_04:A little bit. I understand what you're saying. So I think I think because of the way it is, because now, like, there is a lot more competitions and a lot more medals being handed out, right? Whether it's international, Pan Am Region, uh, Olympic level, world level, whatever you want. I think, I think there's certain tournaments that are important for certain people at certain times, you know, where they are in their career. Like, because there could be a person that goes and gets a bronze medal or a silver medal at an under-21. And it's like, you know where they are in their level, you're like, that's a step up, or that's a in the right direction. And then you have people that are above the line of the under-21 level, and it's time that like there's really no other option but go win. Yeah, good point. The only victory in that situation is to win because you are the guy. You are what's next, you are ahead of the field, you are running deep in the uh higher world-level tournaments. You are, you are, you are. That one you have to win.
SPEAKER_00:I think pretty much you're right. That's a good point. I mean, listen, it's yeah, and there's a couple people you can see. I mean, I know there was a Turkish girl that, you know, she she got to the final, she lost the final, but she, you know, she was a world championship medalist, and she got to the final this one. That was, I think, a step up. You know, there was, you know, we had a Brazil kid 17 years old, 17, and he, you know, he gets a bronze medal, he loses to the Iranian. There's no shame in that, you know what I'm saying? But he beat USA, you know, on the way, on the way there. A 17-year-old kid, you know, gets it done to get a medal. You know, so I I think those are situations where those are kind of like you said, TJ, like stepping stones. Um, but other ones that are supposed to be.
SPEAKER_04:But that's our real 58 national team member. No, that's not good for them.
SPEAKER_00:But I'm just talking, I'm talking about for this kid, it was so the Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:No, I understand what yeah, uh absolutely. But I was just talking about like I think that's a must-win in 58, too. I for like I he's got I know I know it's uh he lost a last second match, but those are big moments. So I think it does depend on where you are now. That was the last second match. Yeah, the one he two the the quarterfinals. The quarterfinals.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, it was clean, but he's got even close.
SPEAKER_04:My point is some of those guys are A-Squads, you know? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think we've seen that I can go back a long time, and there's some people that have gotten some medals on the world championship level, even that have had like good draws, and they get to the semifinals and they fight uh Serbia or Korea or someone pretty good, and it's not even competitive. It's it's kind of you know, it's it's it's they're gone. And so that's why I was saying performance versus results is some sometimes a little bit shaky, but I just feel like you know, when I see like some of these big countries, you know, they're built for these, like you said, young, getting the the worst draw early. But I mean, they're not even phased. You know, I look at Turkey and Iran, Turkey and Iran fought the quarterfinal, and it was a it was a battle in 63. It was nasty. One one had to take it. You know what I'm saying? And and I can literally say whoever won that, actually, the Turkish kid won the gold medal. If that if the Iranian kid would have won, he would have won a gold medal. It was like, but these guys went at it, but I I didn't feel like they were like the Turkish guy went there and beat up the Iranian, and you say, ah, the Iranian guy wasn't really that good. He had a good draw, but as soon as he fought somebody good, he couldn't handle it. No, it was a it was a nasty fight, but I'm I'm seeing like maybe some of our our athletes are not that I don't know if they're they're not that experienced strong, they're not that mentally strong, they don't have the character to do it, but something is off. Something is off because we're we're dropping those we're dropping those tough matches.
SPEAKER_03:That's a cult, but that's a c that's a culture, right? So you got to go back to the culture right now. What's the culture? You know, what's the culture of the training? What's the culture of the athlete? What's the expectation of the coach and the organization? So if you're so you know, I'll go back to a soccer analogy. If you're if you're the only hope and you're one of two guys, and you're the better by far, you're gonna start every game and you're gonna play full 90s because they don't have a choice. And they and regardless of your performance, you're gonna continue to play until they build somebody better. And that's one example of culture, right? A true culture is if you're not performing, either fix that with the athlete or the organization uh or you move them on and you get somebody else in that spot. You start doing what they call pipeline unblocking, and you take that athlete and you put them in a performance. But if you don't have a culture that values that, but you know, let's be clear about competitive sport, it's ugly. There's nothing nice about it. This they should be treating these athletes like they're professionals, which means win or go home. That was if you're not winning and we give you X amount of time and we've set markers for you, and you're not making any demonstrable progress, then we need to move on and find somebody else that can. Now that's that's going to be the rest of your life, whether you're, you know, the guy at uh Target packing the bag so that people can take their groceries home, or you're the guy at Starbucks serving the coffee or the CEO of a major sport corporation. You're you're in a competitive sport. We're not here to like you. We're here to see your performance and help you give you what you need, tell us what you need, and then you need to perform. But if the culture of the coaches and the culture of the organization doesn't demand performance, then that's what you're doing.
SPEAKER_00:I would I I would say that I agree with you, TJ. Some some medals are good medals for people. You know what I'm saying? Some some are, and at the right time and stuff like that. But I do think that this culture of I'm in the semis, I'm I I got a medal. Like I think that's a settlement. I mean, I literally.
SPEAKER_04:Obviously, you never fought for third place. You never went and said, Yeah, you never would say I won third. Or I went I won fourth or one fifth. I won one. You never say one. You would say I got. I I lost in the semifinals. You know what I mean? It was okay day. But now it's a good thing. Yeah, and you lost the semifinals.
SPEAKER_00:It was it was you lost in the semifinals, is understood you got third place, right? You didn't say I got third.
SPEAKER_04:You're right.
SPEAKER_00:That's a good point.
SPEAKER_04:You know, and it is a cultural thing, and I think it started with the the the points being such a big deal. I like the I like I think that they go to one one bronze medal. I think we're at that point that's when we go one bronze medal.
SPEAKER_00:That would change a lot.
SPEAKER_04:You do the reprocharge system or the like the Grand Prix challenge system they were doing for the grand forever.
SPEAKER_00:Because a br the a bronze medal would be a true bronze medal, number one, and it would mean that you you had to fight for it. Like instead of you won your last match, right? You didn't, ah I lost my last match and I got a bronze. It's a weird thing, you know, but I think that would be it's like at the Olympics. I know you don't you know love it, you know, young, but when people they always say that the gold medalist is super happy and the bronze medals are super happy because they won their last matches. The silver medalist is the most, you're like, I was so close, but I lost. It's a weird you look at the podium, most of the time the silver medalist is the one that's not happy, you know. But I think in these opens and stuff like that in the world championships, I think you almost have to go to that because you know, people are getting these good draws and they're dropping these matches. And if they're if they're truly third best in the world, prove it. Go fight off, go win that that last match.
SPEAKER_04:I think that would be or go to un or go to unranked opens. Like left not rank opens. Like, you know, do I like the random draw? I think that again, for the points of opens, I think random draw would be okay. If you want to rank the world championships, you want to rank the ones that should be ranked, but opens, maybe they should be unranked. Then you get then you get then you get you get tougher matches early, you get the the right matches, or you don't get the right matches, but it's at least that day you're dealing with whatever the bracket is. I always thought that's what made I made our made us um I like I used to like that part about our sport. Like you just had to be prepared for whatever. You wake up in the morning, like you were just saying, sometimes you gotta go fight the beast early and you're ready to go do it. And sometimes you got a little bit of a wiggle room, but now it's so predictable, and even with the point changing and the the point deductions and all that stuff, you you're looking at you know ranking system that doesn't really reflect where we are, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I mean I to that point, I I'll I'll say that you know, maybe, you know, G I always tell everybody when we're trying to calculate points and how you're gonna get to the Olympic Games, you know, you need this many points, you know, you'll probably be in the top six or top five, blah, blah, blah. But like right now, I go, it's a given. All the best players are gonna get their 40 open points. But it's not because they're good enough to get it, it's just because there are so many tournaments, you could piece it together here: a third place here, a first place there, a third place here, a third place there, a second place. Okay, I got my 40. But if it was two things. Number one, if it wasn't ranked in the G1s, maybe, and if there was you had a limit, you only get four G1s, you only get two G2s, you only get one presence cup, of course. You know what I'm saying? Something like that. Now, those 40 points would not be guaranteed. It's almost a guarantee right now. You know what I'm saying? You'll find some opens to get your points.
SPEAKER_04:So obviously they'll never do it because I know it's a it's a money thing too, and uh, you know, the more tournaments you got, the more money you make. But like we said we said a long time ago, uh at some point we gotta get some kind of season, some something where it's it's these four this year, these four this year, and like have I don't know if it's A level, B level, C level, break it up, all you gotta do is sit in the room, figure it out, but something where you know you gotta go to these four opens, these two opens, this this championship, and you kind of go through that and you'll get a real ranking. Because you'll be forced in a situation where you're fighting the top people, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Just because I mean, just because uh I mean, just kind of kind of going back to like you know the athletes and who can beat who and stuff like that, just because there is a potential matchup like for CJ and and and and Victor in the future. I mean, we're two years out. I mean, the points are gonna be reset. Just because I'm watching the world championships, I watched the Grand Prix Challenge, which they both were at, and then you know, this match, you know, right in particular here. Do you think that uh do you think Victor's a threat to CJ?
SPEAKER_04:I don't know. Our selection procedure has 5,000 tournaments on it. So the when it comes to threat, you're assuming that we're gonna have a fight off in that division, which I would probably guess to my liking, and unliking that they'll it'll be figured out where there's no fight off. But if there is a fight off, I think it is a little bit scary. I think if it goes to true ranking, it uh could be even scary. We know 74 is a little bit lighter than 80, but they both fall in the you know the Olympic 80 category. So it's a little easier to go right off 74 points than there's 80 points. So depending on where they both fall, how they perform. But I mean, I know we talked about it before, but it's it's all the way down to who you fight, where you fight on what tournament is, who was there that they're allowed to move the Richter scale on of what direction we go as far as selection. So for me, I understand your point. And like if it's a fight-off situation, I think it could be a little interesting, you know?
SPEAKER_00:I do too, to be honest with you, because I just think at this stage in Victor's development, I mean, this fight I didn't like. This fight kind of threw me off a little bit. I don't know if it's like a uh not a normal situation because I've seen him fight Kazakhstan and Russia and and and really be, I'm gonna use the word creative. Like young, how you would like him because it's not just physical. It's like he's tricky, and then he'll do like real taekwondo, you know, it's something, and all of a sudden he'll like he gets on you. So he has a, in my opinion, for his age, a very mature game in the sense of he can blend like some weird wiki walkie stuff that you say, but I think his majority is hard taekwondo, cuts, fast kicks, up bottles, punch, doubles, back kicks, spin, axe kick. Like he's pretty creative and different contrary to normally that's how he fights, and then he adds in the stuff, the tricky things when you don't expect it. But this match I felt like he was doing the little not his his his his true style. He was kind of hanging things and kind of flopping things versus like you know, bumping people off the line and kind of using his kind of old school taekwondo if you if you will. Where is he from?
SPEAKER_03:I think he's gonna where is he from?
SPEAKER_00:He's from Florida. He's a Brazilian his father is a Brazilian and his mother, and uh he lives up in um up north, like in the Fort Lauderdale area, so he trains with his dad. I think he's part of the academy now. I'm not sure if he's gonna live there or not. I don't think he should. I think he's doing pretty well with his dad. He spent a lot of time in Europe, and he his Europe is his uh like our Korea. Like we go to Korea, we you were at Hanggub Chere all the time. I went to Dong Sung High School in Jongen and then you know kind of sprinkled in. But Hanguk Chede was your your go-to. You knew the people, they knew you, you knew the coach, and that was you're almost like a part of that fraternity. And he's he works with his group in Spain, and he goes there, and same thing. He's got a home, not a home, but like a home base of training partners that he goes there from time to time, and then he comes back home and works with his his father in their gym. So I think that's working. I don't know why I would change it, but we've talked about that before with a lot of other people, you know. So um, but I do like that you know, fight off in third place, TJ, kind of going to that.
SPEAKER_04:So I think they're there for some most tournaments.
SPEAKER_00:I gotta I gotta ask. I gotta ask because I you know I maybe I maybe this is after the fact after we're talking stuff. I gotta ask about because I've said this before. I remember when I talked about USAT stuff and I talked about AU stuff, and when USAT was bad, I criticized them. When AU was bad, I had to do the same thing. I couldn't be nice, even though I I tend to like those guys and tend to work with those guys. I had to kind of be a little blunt with my assessment, you know, on some of their things, nationals and team trials of last year. Um we're gonna talk about this staff. This this staff that was put together for the American squad. Thoughts?
SPEAKER_03:Who was it? Who was it?
SPEAKER_00:Um it was uh uh I don't know who's the head coach or or not. I'm assuming it's Steve Lambden, who's one of the three coaches that coached for the world championships. It was Nikki Oliver, it was um Lucas Rodriguez, Mr. Rodriguez, and it was Hansel from uh I don't even know Hansel's last name. What's his last name? DJ, you know? I don't know. He's from Texas.
SPEAKER_04:He's on a national team about the times in middleweight of the US. I've actually coached him a couple times international. I think I coached him at the World Championships.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So um I guess I mean I'll lead out like my question is you know, because I I don't know. The transparency of it, I don't know. I mean, are we merit-based or are we um best option based? And I'm not really for either one of them because I I'm gonna I'm gonna use I'm gonna use myself. Let's say I have nobody on the national team, but I have a lot of experience, I work for people. Like, would I be useful on the national team? I think I would. I think most people would agree. But I can also understand if somebody has three or four people on the national team, you know what, they should probably serve as as you know, part of that staff. I I I get it, but like I'm not sure what what this organization is doing, because if I'm not mistaken, two out of the four people had zero people on the team. So I don't know what that says to people that have people on the team or had people on the team because the tournament's almost over. Like, should they have been there? Should they not have been there? Could they have done a better job? Would they have interacted? Um, are those people, since they don't have anybody on the team, are they absolutely the best qualified in the and the best interest of the athletes that were there? You know, I mean, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna stop there and see what you guys have to say, and I'll I'll definitely add in my my perspective. Anybody? anybody?
SPEAKER_04:Uh I so let me I'm gonna I'm gonna jump uh leapfrog a little bit. So last week they put out an application for who is interested in being the coaches for 2026. Um for national team stuff, USAT national team coaching staff. Gotcha. Right? And it was like a one-page survey type thing. Have you your name, your USAT number, your WT number? Have you ever coached for a team? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Online? This was online, like a little form you clicked, then yeah. Google for the colours. What teams you yeah, uh, yeah, what team you served on? Um, what else did it ask? Are you interested in being a part of the monthly? Are you a part of the monthly coaching calls? Yes or no? Are you interested in being a part of monthly coaching calls? Yes or no. Um and I filled the whole thing out. Obviously. Yeah, yeah. I applied for it, I applied for it. And I I I've got I I I should, right? I mean, I I I I should. So I I did. And like I said, I did last year too. Just like to sit around and just, you know, put my name in a hat. Just remember that I actually do this sport for real. Um there there's been emails sent out adding people to this conversation monthly. I can't even get a I can't get an email to attend a conversation. So my opinion on the coaching staff and how they got there, who they talked to, it has it's not merit-based. It's not, what was the second one you used? Result-based. It's none of that. It's just like you said, they're literally doing whatever they want. Can you imagine that? I'm sure there's other people's names not on that list, but can you imagine that? You I can't even be a part of the conversation. We can't even be a part of the conversation.
SPEAKER_00:What do you mean you're not part of the conversation?
SPEAKER_04:So apparently I have a monthly coaching call with all the US, a bunch of US coaches on it. I've seen the list of people, and there's a bunch of people on there. And a lot, also a lot of people that are not on there. And this is just a call where they say that they're going over their high performance plans and what their their plans are and what direction they're going and all these things. This just seems like general information, right? Not some private coaching meeting that's happening, but you have to get an invite to this thing and they have to allow you to come listen to them. This has nothing to do with selection of staff or anything like that, just to even be a part of a monthly conversation. So we're at we're at the point where, I mean, again, I hate to say it, but how does how how do we how are we having people go coach at events that they've never been that they never coached at? Or or just all of a sudden Hansel's on the coaching squad.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's a big one.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, I know I think he was a trainer at one of the cadets or the cadet or junior tournaments in Mexico, right? I think so. I don't know. So, yeah, I believe so. And then, and then now we're coaching at under 21 with no regard to anybody or anything else. Obviously, the easy thing is, oh, I I talk shit about them, or I'm this, I'm this. We gotta, you said this to me last week. We always gotta go back to where this whole thing, whole thing started. They've they've they've blocked out an entire group of coaches. An entire group of coaches blocked out. It's not even just about me. I I it's easy because I I'm first hand um experiencing it, but there's a bunch of coaches out on that list. You're not even you're not even you can't be a part of the conversation.
SPEAKER_00:But whatever, so you you fill in this Google Doc thing and you said, Yes, I want uh I would like to be on the on the call, and they never added you to the list, and they added other people that you know. Yes, that did the same thing, same thing, same time. It wasn't like they were on from before or whatever. No, that's crazy. Brand new emails. So, so is that personal? Is that by it was oh, we just oh it was a misstep. We didn't, yeah, I I I I get you, TJ. I mean, that's wrong. Like if you can't even get on the call, you know, and then and then they wonder why we get to these trips, and that's what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_04:Like, and they make you say things about people that like I I like Hansel. Like I said, I've known him for a long time. I've been able to work with him as being a part of a national team. Yeah, I've been a part of our national team with him as an athlete. I've actually coached him at, like I said, big events and world championship events. So it's not even about that. It's just how does that make how do we get there? How does that how does that happen? And I and I've been told I go ahead. I've been told after I've um I've coached at Grand Prix events and gotten Grand Prix gold medals and ran deep in the tournaments that I couldn't be a part of certain stats because I wasn't ready to coach people, even though I actually had athletes on the team. So that's to your your point of both. I had people on the team and I had already proven the capability of coaching at a level and was still, this was still not an option. Yeah. Well, that's what I'm saying. I mean, pre-pre-podcast of us actually saying how everything actually is, pre-podcast, pre pre-me going, I'm gonna take this route and say something because people aren't gonna say anything. But they're doing this to a lot of people.
SPEAKER_00:Well, listen, I know there's always gonna be a first time, right? There's always gotta be a first time that you coach at a world championships, but there should also be like this step up. And we've seen, I mean, all four of those groups, it seems like all four of those individuals, who right to the top, real fast. Like, no, I spent two years with juniors and three years with cadets, and I came to the Grand Prix. It's just right to the World Championships, right to the World Championships and coach one person, right to the junior world championships or your world championships and coach eight people. Like, which again, if it that truly wasn't merit-based, that you should have been there. So, are you telling me that those, if it's not merit-based, it's these people have a unique special ability to enhance the the performances of the athletes? And I'm just like, there's so many coaches that I can go from New York, from Washington State, from Texas, from all over this country that have been around, that have produced, that have understand the way the Grand Prix and World Championships and everything works, the way these referees interact, they could probably lend a helping hand to build that team. And they were just skipped over. You, I I mean, I'm you know I'm your biggest you know fan, TJ. I I mean, I know what kind of listen, I'm gonna say it. Put you in a room with 40 athletes, and put any one of those guys in a room with 40 athletes, and let's see the quality of who can train and who can relate. It won't even be close. It's like a masterclass to to a kindergartner, and that's just the truth. I mean, tell me I'm wrong. I mean, but do it, do it. I mean, it's it's so and and maybe, and I'm just saying you, but there might be I look at Sang Cha. I I'm gonna go to Sangcha, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give my man Sang Cha uh a little shout out today. I saw him post something on Hansel. Hansel's his student, and of course he's probably proud of his student. And I'm he's like, I'm so happy my student is on the world world championship team, you know, killing it. And I'm just like, first I was like, yeah, I get it. He's proud of his son. But then I'm like, damn, you're the you're the creator, you're the inventor, you're the leader. And you can't get on the staff, you gotta go to another country. You gotta you gotta coach for another country. Like, I'm sure he's happy for him. I don't know what he's killing on the staff. I mean, he's a Hansel's a good dude, you know that. Like, like I he's so respectful, so nice, passionate guy. I like him a lot. Do I think he's ready to go there right a right away in front of some other people? I don't. I mean, it's not nothing negative against him because, like I said, he's a good, he's a good dude. That's like have a beer with guy, have a dinner with guy, like he's a good man, young man. But I just, I mean, I gotta, I gotta call it out when I say, like, what is this? Like, I mean, uh, is it Steve Lambden bring him there? Because Steve Lambda's from Texas, and Steve Lambdon got coached by Cha and those that group, and that's where Hansel falls under. I mean, is that what's happening? Is it nepotism? I don't know.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, I mean now I'm telling, you know, oh, don't call me a conspiracy theorist. But that's it just conspiracy, though. It doesn't look right. It doesn't, like I said, it doesn't feel right. I mean, like I said, like my biggest thing is there's other people on the national team and people that have coached those kids on the national team for a long time, and some of them have high, high expectations and and good abilities to go win. And we just we're putting with we're putting with with whoever. Like maybe they should just be with their home coach. Maybe we got to put more people that, like, if this is not something that matters, what what's we gotta figure out how to get more people there that can affect a single athlete if that's what we're doing. I mean, you know, we got we got guys, people that were sending to the world championship for single athlete. So if that's where the direction we're going, there's a lot more of those.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I think that would help build the community, not a damn call and putting people on a call. But getting back to your original point, that's messed up, TJ. I think you need to check into that a little bit and and you know, find out like, hey, why is my name not on you don't want me? I don't know. Maybe they don't want you on the staff. Fine, but you should be entitled. If everybody, if this call is a free call for people that aren't on the staff too, then damn, bro, you you need to be on that staff. You know, I mean, listen, TJ, I I remember right before we started this podcast, you know, you posted something, a real personal thing, and you put some things out there, and I think that's one of the things that spearheaded this. You know, I know for a fact, even on USAT websites, that your name is not uh listed as Olympic as a recent Olympic medalist, and other people are. Like that's wrong. It's almost like they're white white.
SPEAKER_04:That was not even USA. I'm gonna I'm gonna take you one step further. That wasn't even a USAT website, that was USOC website. But you can uh what's his name? Um, you see the person who rent the article at the end, it it's it's Jose, who's a part of their whole little crew, too. Like there was a mention of before the 2024 Olympic Games, there's a mention of recent. Check this out, Grandmaster. There's a there's a list of recent Olympic significant, you know, results. They say they talk about Anastasia getting her gold medal. They drop all the way down past 2016. Don't say anything about Jackie Galloway, all the way to 2012. They mentioned my teammate, our our teammate, and obviously Paige McPherson, you know, she goes on and went three time Olympic, uh, three-time Olympian plus our bronze medal in 2012. And there is zero mention of me. I'm in the same Olympic year as Paige on the same team from the same school, from the same coach, the last male in our country to have any color Olympic medal, gold, silver, or bronze, we can argue over it amongst the people on the podium, but I'm talking about not even mentioning it, and I am the last one in our entire country. That's not significant at all. They're erasing history. They're literally, and it didn't make me mad. I told I told Coach Arena right away, and I was talking about him a little bit, but I was like, you know what? I could almost take it. I can almost take it and go, I don't need anything from them. They don't need to acknowledge me. But when I start thinking about all the people that put into my journey, my mother, my father, my cousins, my family, my teammates, my coaches, for my name not to be there is so disrespectful to them. It's it's it's absurd. Don't tell me it's not significant. You you can't tell me it's not significant.
SPEAKER_03:The USA.
SPEAKER_04:If you're gonna talk, if you're gonna talk about 2012 the Olympic year at all.
SPEAKER_03:It's not it's not even that. They just they historically, you know, I went back to look at one of those websites just for chuckles and giggles, and the amount of omissions and um mistakes was was astounding to me. And there was been there's been a long time where they try to undo history because they don't like who made history. And and there's, you know, I mean, you don't have to like who made history, but unless they killed somebody or molested a child, you know, you can't undo history. And even in that case, you can put an asterisk unless they had steroid performance or something. So, but it just shows you the lack of, you know, I think one of the most important things to remember about confidence and things of this nature is when somebody's insecure, when an organization's insecure, they're afraid to tell the truth because it just shows the reality. So, in a weird way, their omissions, whether it's about you, me, Coach Moran, or whatever, it's very telling that the their lack of ability to recognize who created, who made, who did what. Um I still laugh at the fact that they think they forgot who created their coaching program. They forgot who created their high performance plan. They forgot the people who made their coaching program in general.
SPEAKER_04:So they walk around like Taekwondo started when they got here. And that's what just it's like like it just started when they showed up. Taekwondo popped out of nowhere, and they're like, come train with us in in Colorado now, come train with us in North Carolina, and we're the best. Like, how did we get there? Where like this this country has so much good history and so many championships, and so much winning, and so many results.
SPEAKER_03:But the only the only people get hurt in this is the organization. So, you know, I'm down here in Arizona. I'm going to do a seminar for a taekwondo school down here. You know, whenever I go somewhere, I'd send out a note and see whatever. Um, so the history lives on because people know who you are and what you do. But I guess the point is when you think about everything and how they're doing, it's gotta be kind of embarrassing for them to be that, you know, I get that they have a bunch of non-performers running the organization. So when you talk about the coaches or these people, you know, I had a I'd have to go on the internet to search three out of those four names. I don't remember any of them, I don't know any of them. I don't remember any of them ever doing anything. I don't remember any of them doing anything of significance or whatever. And it brings me to my second point. I don't have any interest in coaching, but it would be interesting based on what you just said, where do I fall in that mix? I coached the world championship team. I had three athletes on that team. I coached other teams. I was head of team. I was head of their coaching program, I created their coaching program, and I'm an Olympic gold medalist, World Cup gold medalist, uh, Pan Am Gold Medalist, Pan Am Taekwondo Championship Gold Medalist, national team member for eight years. So I put my name in the coaching hat. Where do I fall? Do you pick me or Chuck Hansel and Gretel? I mean, you know, I that would be I don't have any interest in coaching because I wouldn't want to coach this style. I'd rather I'd been a different stage in my life. But that would be an interesting conversation. Do I get do I get an invite to the coaching call? Since I wrote the coaching program that they still use.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know. Yeah, but I mean, you know what the funny thing is, is is is again, they that's a good point. You know, it's talking about they they act like Tech One Starter when they got here. You know, and it's I just I just I I can't stand when they talk about like you know how they're gonna run this you know sport in this country and how they're gonna develop it and how they're gonna get deep and you know they're gonna create I mean listen, I give the organization credit for creating a facility, uh good, you know, creating a place where people can come together and train um in a centralized training. I don't know that it's the greatest thing, but I I give them credit for that. Um I give them credit for creating a budget to pay those athletes. But it's instead of creating that for everybody, they create it for only for themselves and only for a few select people. When I see uh you know the kid that got a bronze medal in 80, it said congratulations to U.S. national team, under 21 national team member and academy athlete. And I'm like, I saw that. That would be that, but again, that's they're marketing their program, they're they're they're they're promoting their program. If you know the little girl is gonna fight tomorrow, uh good luck to or congratulations to under 21 World and Via's Academy Athlete, you know, Eileen Torres. Would they would they would they ever do that? No, but they always do it, and so for me, they're they're segregating themselves. They're telling the rest of the organization, you're not important, we are important. And you said it, TJ. These people that can get their top ranking, yes, they have to win, but it also helps when the organization is paying for them to go over and over and over. Who has an advantage? They have advantage.
SPEAKER_04:And then they lock out, but then you but yes, so they're making all the rules, like you said before, and then you lock out divisions because someone's in the top 10. Like, didn't they when we go back to all these, and I hate saying the word, pathways, when we go back to all these crazy pathways of things that have have come, and you gotta go to here to do this, and this will get you to here and do this, and we're doing this so it protects the domestic athletes and international athletes. And now all you've done is created a system that you're funding to block everyone out. We have, was it four or five male divisions that are gonna be uncontested? Four, possibly five, four, four of our senior male divisions are gonna be uncontested for team trials. The the the tournament they're gonna go to is a Pan Am Championships, which all the points are gonna be deleted right afterwards, correct?
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_04:We are telling kids that went to our our our our regionals and states and nationals and all that stuff and with this entire system that now because we funded people that train with us and we decided they're the ones that you don't get to fight for a real spotted team trials. You don't get you can get you can fight to be second. If you want to come and fight to be second, you fight to be second. Like it's all rigged. You can't win. How can you win?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. But that's what I'm saying. I mean, this is you know, I you know, people, I think people know this. People talk about this behind closed doors, but nobody wants to talk about it in public. And I think it just needs to be it needs to be addressed because it's not it's not getting better. It's not getting better. They can dress up, dress it up, put some fancy logos, put some fancy um, you know, marketing tools out there and stuff like that. I I get it. All that stuff looks good. It looks really good. I'm I'm impressed. I think it's cool to see you know that stuff. I think it's good to make the public aware what Taekwondo is doing in this country. But the core of it is not getting better, the core of it is not growing, the core of it is not it's not enticing to coaches to to go ahead and and and and help produce athletes when they do all that stuff, they jump through all those hoops, they go through the pathways, TJ, and then they say, again, I feel so bad saying his name, Mr. Hansel. You come up. And I I don't get it. I don't get it.
SPEAKER_04:You know, I've sat through I've sat through their hours of uh coaching certification classes when they did it in Colorado. Like I've I've done all those type of things too, and now it's this new thing, and you do this or you do this, and but like you said, I don't know if the word like you uses nepotism, but it has to be. What's the other thing? But even how do we use it? How do we get that?
SPEAKER_00:Why do you have to go through their coaching, like what do they call it, coaching accelerator program? What coaching accelerator? So I get to come and watch you guys train? Like excel what if what if what if I'm doing just find the way I am? Just find the way you am. Matter of fact, how many you must I've had quite a few people from my per my personal club become athletes out there and win medals for them. And I must be doing something right, but they I still have to go through the accelerator program. I gotta go and bend the knee and kiss the ring. Like for what? For what?
SPEAKER_03:It's the bunny's nose. For what? So listen, the the idea.
SPEAKER_04:That's the only way they can, but that's the only way they can work with you. If you just you have to do and say what they want you to say and act how they want you to act, and like they don't really want an opinion. They want it's you know what, and back to that whole thing, like that that whole thing of going our national, uh, instead of just saying national team member saying academy team member, they're saying these are our results from our room, our academy, our system, these are our results. These aren't the country's results. You know what I mean? That's not the country's results, it's our results. It's what look what we're doing. It's been like that since the beginning. When I when we were back in the day in Jason Poos and then walking around to um, you know, they're they're filming and doing things that all the academy athlete kicking US people in the face and posting and like, look at us, we're doing this great thing by beating everybody else up. Like it's all backwards and it's been backwards for so long. So that's true.
SPEAKER_03:It's important to remember, right? And this is where they lost the plan, and this is where the USLC is responsible. So when you develop a sport or you develop anything, the pathway and the high performance plan are outlined by the sport and then overseen by the U.S. Olympic Committee with oversight to say yes, no, andor fund it. At the point where the parent organization, which has 45 NGBs to handle, USOC, loses the script and doesn't hold people accountable for their high performance plan, or they don't look at it in depth. And part of that problem was that they got rid of most of the volunteer leadership and it became staff-driven. Um, and Jay Warwick is a product of that staff, and that staff he worked on both sides of that fence. Then you lose your way because now what you don't have is a consistent pathway to develop coaches. In USA soccer, for example, there's a pathway for soccer coaches to become developed, and they got to follow X, Y, and Z. They don't ever even see an opportunity unless they go through the steps and stuff. And they have a very developed pathway to try to find and identify coaches and then train them and then maybe give them opportunities in the various categories of coaching. And that's the same on a club team or whatever. I don't know anything about basketball, but what I can say is USAT doesn't have a coach. Development pipeline. It has a club. And if you belong to the club, and if you bring cookies to the show and you're willing to buy beers once in a while, then you get to be part of the club. And if the particular coach doesn't like you because you can't say um tiss to you, like the British people say, tif you, then you can't be part of the club. Or, you know, they erase history of people that have been part of the club. When you have a performance culture, though, you may not like or love the person that's performing, but you know, Bella Caroli performed. You know, that's it.
SPEAKER_00:There's a there's a gymnastic gymnastic coach that his you know him, uh TA. Uh this guy, Daniel Leva, he's uh two-time Olympian, two-time silver medalist. He's from Miami. His uh mother's gym is literally right across, and his father had a gym as well. And it's funny because I talk to the USLC people and they're like, he's nuts, he's crazy. He's got this wild style, but they're like, there's a method to his madness. He hasn't gone through any of their, of course, he has to go through their background checks and protocol and that kind of stuff. But as far as their systematic of how he they trained, no, he's way different than what he produces athletes. Yeah, there's a method. I just I ran into him in Doha on the way back from Thailand. I'm sitting in Doha and I'm sitting across from this guy, and he's speaking Spanish, and I go, that guy's Cuban. Didn't think much of it. He stands up, turns around, he's got a shirt on, and I'm like, I go, Mr. Leva? I'm like, Juan, it's like one guy. He's like, oh my gosh. I'm like, damn, we're halfway across the world. But he was coaching out of junior world championships in the Philippines. And I was, you know, thinking like this. This guy didn't do the their accelerator program, didn't you? Again, you have I I do know you should go through certain protocols, you know. When you're on representing a national team, you should dress a certain way, attend to certain things, you know. I mean, you gotta have a certain amount of decor, you know, decorum to be on that, you know, you know, to be part of that staff. But my point is when it comes to training and and coaching these athletes, this guy has a method. It may not be Bella Caroli's method, not to, you know, you know, cross the two, but whoever the national team coach is. So I don't know. Just getting back to the original thing, it's crazy that you can't be on a damn list to call to what the call. I would like to see.
SPEAKER_04:This is the second year. The first year the first year I uh applied, it was a little bit longer. They asked you um, you know, where you coached at your your your um results as an athlete. They asked it was a few more questions. This it was like six questions this time. And but there was no res there was no response from last year either. They just you know who did they accept into the coaching thing? Do you know? Like did they have a a team? I just know because I saw the email list and I don't know how many they added, but the person that they added wasn't on the list at first. So there's been a point is that they had this this search last year. Mm-hmm. Who did they add?
SPEAKER_00:Who are the coaches? Yeah, no, who the coaches are on their staff?
SPEAKER_04:I I would assume the ones that are coaching at the under 21s and world championships now and going to the cadet.
SPEAKER_00:I mean I I'm gonna assume not. You know why? Because they never named those people. They never said we would like to welcome Mr. Nikki, Miss Nikki, Mr. Hanzel, Mr.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, but that's not how this, that's not how they work. I mean, like, no, we just show up and we see who's on the we just the only reason we know who's on the coaching staff is because if I look on Simply Compete or I just wait to watch a video and see who's on the team as a coaching staff, you never know who's gonna be there. Yeah, you know, but I'm assuming those guys are all on the call or or have been in the system some kind of way.
SPEAKER_00:I just never know how you know you know they have all they since the beginning dominated in 28. And I mean, obviously we're two years away. There's no way we're gonna dominate. There's no way it's an impossibility to dominate. Could we have some good results? Probably. But like to think that you're gonna have this thing where everybody goes, wow. USA, like they did with Turkey at the World Championships. Whoa! Turkey is the number one team in the world. Quite honestly, Brazil, whoa, four finals, two goals, two. Whoa, it was a big coming out. There's nothing on the horizon that looks that USA is gonna do that. And here we are, seven, eight years into the program, seven years into the program, and I just I don't know. I mean, it's a little defilating disheartening. It's strange when I see this world championship staff. I just don't, I don't I don't I mean, I don't know. I feel bad for the for the athletes because at the end of the day you Herb, you said it. You know, you know who suffers at the end of this? The pipeline. You know, you know, the moms, the dads, all the different supporters, they're the ones that that that suffer from this. These guys go home. They have their they got their you always say it, they got their flights, they got their hotels, they got their they got their salaries. They don't live in if the kids win or lose. They're just like, we did our best. Let's go home. I don't know. Let's have some ice cream.
SPEAKER_04:I know we we like I said, we always joke about you know, first, second, and third and Olympic medals and you know, trying to get world medals and all that, like this stuff like that. But when I think about my coaching staffs that I was on, or not coaching staff, my uh the teams I was on as an athlete, I always had coaches that had been through the system that I'm currently trying to go through. These guys had fought the world championships. They had previously, you're not again you said you got to coach for your first time somewhere, but the level of expertise in the room, and like we joke, like I was able to hold on and get third place and kind of get my way in. And I don't think I was amazing, but I was pretty good for my time. But that was because I had I was guided. I knew what was going on. I I had complete trust in the people that are that are in the ring with me, you know. I mean, a lot of these guys are going through it for the first time at the same time the kids are going through it.
SPEAKER_00:And again, like you said, I know you gotta coach some of these kids are some of these kids are some of these kids that have more experience than the coaching staff. Let's not, let's not, let's not kid ourselves. Some of these kids are better than the coaching staff. I'm for real. I mean, they they might not want to they might not want to believe that, but that's the truth. That's the truth.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I think I was just very for so I think maybe I was lucky or fortunate or it was by design, which I assume it was by design because you know you you you think of it and you you I don't think we ever had dude, no, it just it just didn't happen before. It never happened before like this. This is this is a new era of something I'm seeing and learning in front of me. I I feel like we always had predominantly strong figures on our national team. I'm not saying that anyone's strong or not strong, take it how you want to take it, but we had a lot of clout on our coaching staff, and especially at any event that was tied to a world championships, the big dogs were there. The guys, they were there. It's a world championships. I I I don't know. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00:That's just my thought. Yeah, you're not wrong, you're not wrong. Listen, again, I know we kind of got off on a tangent, you know, talking about the world championships, you know, this under 21 and the level and the people and the outstanding performances for some of these countries. And there's a couple that I think have a chance to be double world champions middle. But when it comes to coaching, and I brought up the staff because I I have to be, you know, fair um for some of my critiques in the past, but you know, to hear you not be able to be on a call to hear guys like you, and again, there's some other coaches. I mean, I don't want to mention their names right now, but I I look around, I'm not dumb. I mean, I can give credit where credit's due, and I see where you know some of these coaches from Washington State, some of these coaches from Texas, some of these coaches from New York, they're doing a good job and they're producing people. And when they don't get a sniff at the job, they're not even in the conversation, you know, when there's historically people like you that have asked, that want, that people have requested. Can't even, you can't even, you can't even be a trainer, can't even be a water boy, you can't even be a scout. Like it's it's just I I have to ask the question do we truly want to get better? Are we truly providing an environment for our for our young athletes to flourish? My answer is no, because they're going through it, like you said, the first time. It's like, I mean, I I got I'm not proud. I went to my you know two Olympic games and didn't sit in a chair. I I scouted, I I held targets, I that's crazy. I freaking ran and got water. I mean, I'm talking like I was a slave boy, slave boy, but I was part of a staff and I knew, you know what, that's what makes me a good head coach right now, because I know there's roles for everybody. And there's certain roles that they might seem little, but they're so important to the overall success. And that's what I do with my group in Brazil and the other you know, peak people that I work with. But I took a process. I didn't I didn't just go sit in the chair, I just I did the right thing and and played my role. And and and you know what? TJ, you know, when you are getting into the reprochage, you know, when Paige gets you know the hometown person first match, when you get Survet, the world number one, the world champion, the monster of all monsters, first match. We didn't flinch. We didn't even flinch. It because I've been there before. And look, if I was all fucking shaken and nervous, you would have been like, damn. My coach don't even know what to do. Come on, man. There's gotta be some there's levels to this stuff, and these I think we're we're doing a disservice to to the athletes, you know. We need to provide them with a better structure. Yeah. Anyway. Wow. Sorry for the the rant, Grandmaster Perez. We made you quiet today, sorry.
SPEAKER_03:I'm just I'm just listening because you know, I I talk on this subject a lot and I have my own thoughts on what they do wrong and and how they do it wrong. But you know, the end of the day, it's wrong. No matter how you look at it, it's wrong. And how do you fix it? Well, gotta change the leadership. If you don't change the leadership, then you you gotta change. But we had a long list of stuff. We're already at an hour to you guys. Want to try to get to all of that. We'll finish up.
SPEAKER_00:No, no, we'll we'll we'll wrap it up for today. I think we've had a good little uh good little run here. But we'll listen, we only have a couple more for the end of the year and stuff like that. But like I said, I uh I'm gonna try my best. I hope you guys will like hold me to it, like to you know, to to be that voice for the for the people because quite honestly, you know, people can't. I mean, we TJ, we've heard this, you know, privately, like I have to do this or I have to do that, or I can't say this, I can't say that, because this and this will happen. It's a shame that political pressures and things like that happen within the sport. It can't just be who wins and who loses. Um, so I'm gonna be that person, sorry, not sorry, warehouse 15, whatever the else you want to put, you know, say in it, that's gonna be that's my that's my uh that's my mission for this right now, guys. That's really my mission.
SPEAKER_03:Oh that's we'll go again.
SPEAKER_04:I think you I think you said something. Like I said, you said something the other day. If not, if not, it has to be said. It's it's it's it's we either choose or do something. I think we've entered this point in our sport where we talk a lot. We kind of you said it's always the background conversations, it's always this, and you know, it's said underneath, but never really said out loud, and and we just kind of accept it and we just keep moving with it. And some people figure it out, some people end up on the right side, and some people end up on the left side. Some people get a little piece of the cookie, the other people just stay on the outside, but nobody really says anything. And I don't think we are in a good place right now. I don't think it is right right now. I don't think it makes any sense right now. And like I said, for my side of it, even the the fact of just like you said, trying to erase history and acting like, you know, pretending that things didn't happen and like there was like how do you even do that? Like these are people who have sat behind a computer, used the camera a little bit, got a little contract, wrote an article, and decided, look at me, let me not put someone's accomplishments and a sport that they've grown up in on the website, on the USOC website, when you talk about significant medal counts and significant wins and influential people in the program. Like it's it's absurd. It's absurd. And again, I if you do it to someone at this level, and it's not just me. Obviously, we know what the we know what the deal is. I know what the deal is. You know what I mean? But if they if they were doing it at this level, nobody has a chance. These guys don't have a chance. If you're not in that room, you're you're almost you're put to the fire, you're put to the side. You make that national team, they don't care whether you win or lose. Like we have so much talent on that under-21 team. I don't think it was utilized, and I think it does fall on the coaching staff a little bit.
SPEAKER_00:It's almost a damn near national team on the senior, on the men's side, yeah, it's almost a national team. It's almost our national team. And they should be. We got two medals, chance to get one more tomorrow or two more, two more men.
SPEAKER_01:I think there's two divisions tomorrow, right? Four. Yeah, something like that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. But like, listen, some of our big guns didn't get medals. You know, some on the women's side, I mean, big guns are expected medals on the women's side, you know, came up with some donuts and the men, we dropped a few. I mean, we had a two quarter final matches on men's that didn't get medals, you know. I mean, that's respectable, you know, but but again, like you said, they almost gotta, you know, when you're at that level, you're supposed this 21 is supposed to be a little bit lower than you. You gotta get you gotta get through. You gotta get at least on the podium. If not, it's it's gotta be considered a bad. You know what? I'll say this, and I know people don't won't like it. It's gotta be considered a bad drop. I watch football, I watch basketball, they go, that's a bad loss. That's a good loss. That's a good that's a bad win. That's a good loss. You know what I'm saying? Like they they they they quantify it like that, you know. I mean, sometimes, you know, when the when the Buffalo Bills lost to the the the Dolphins, that's a bad loss. I mean, the Dolphins were horrible at the time. Yes, they played big, and yes, you guys had a bunch of mistakes. That's a bad loss. A team of that quality or quality can't lose to the Dolphins. And for this group that we had there, I think he almost had to get on the medal standard, most of them.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, some of them have high performan a good performance before the the 54k. Ethan, what do you got? He got silver at the university games. So he's not unfamiliar to this age level of 21 and under. Like he ran deep to the finals at these events. So it is a bad, it's not a it's not a good drop. I mean, it's he's for me, he's got to get on the podium too. 54, 58, 68, 74. You know, like we we can sit here and say those there's 80, they're supposed to get on a podium. Yeah, it's just very simple. Good point. But, anyways, like I said, I guess we'll save the other stuff for next time.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, next week we'll have another one. Let's get at it. Love you guys.
SPEAKER_03:All right, gentlemen.
SPEAKER_00:Give us a stand up.
SPEAKER_03:Later, later. Sorry, not sorry. Please. It's been an auspicious morning here at the warehouse 15. We had a moment of prayer and understanding before we got on, and I shared something very special with TJ. But welcome to the Warehouse 15. We are here, we are back, and as we say, the disclaimer always goes, sorry, not sorry. Because we are absolutely certain to say something that you might enjoy or might offend you, or hopefully, combination of both. What's up, Mr. TJ?
SPEAKER_04:What's up, Sash? Just recovering from our morning prayer. I'm uh there we go.
SPEAKER_03:Good, good. I don't we don't want to really keep that one inside the house. It's right to start for the day. So there are you like they say, there are things that you see that you can never unsee. What are you doing, Mr. Moreno? Coach Moreno.
SPEAKER_01:Yo, I I I I'm gonna go to therapy after after this call because uh yeah, something like that.
SPEAKER_03:I just don't I don't want to see any complaints from uh HR, right? So just but just so you know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the HR at uh Warehouse 15 is uh sorry, not sorry. So uh we have to get our own medicine.
SPEAKER_03:That's true. We gotta we gotta live by our own standards.
SPEAKER_01:So I told you I told you this before, and TJ, you you told me the other day, bro. I've got so many people that come up. Sorry, not sorry. That's like their tagline.
SPEAKER_00:I feel like some some kind of like mini celebrity people like want to say, like, hey, sorry, not sorry. And I just like ah, yeah. It's kind of like, yeah, you're you're watching the podcast. Pretty fun.
SPEAKER_03:That's a that's a nice shirt. That's a nice shirt you got on. Where'd you get that shirt?
SPEAKER_00:This old school right here.
SPEAKER_04:That's the old and a go. That's an old and try to get them. Let me check because I think I'm gonna remake those so many times. You need to have some of these.
SPEAKER_03:Let me call the front desk again. See if I yeah, hello. Did my shirt arrive yet? No, no, no. Sorry, not sorry. Yeah, all right. Well, I know we gotta, we gotta, we got a lot to get to, so we got a large agenda today. I am in Arizona, doing all things Arizona. I was with the former CEO of the Olympic Committee, one of the most successful men in history in sport, and the creator of our Olympic model, Dr. Harvey Schiller. He's uh spending about 10 months out of here. Then I then I heard um Tony Graf is gonna be here.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, he's there for some uh one of his, yeah, he's there.
SPEAKER_03:What's he doing? Is he uh is he doing his shaman thing or what what is he doing?
SPEAKER_00:No, he's got uh I guess there's a a retreat, like there's uh a guy that's uh kind of a mentor to some people and stuff like that, kind of a Tony Robbins type of guy. And so uh one of his buddies, one of his he he doesn't actually work with this the guy, but his buddy brought him out there, Paul Mallella from New York, who uh utilizes this gentleman, pays him like six figures a year as a as a mentor. I mean, like yeah, he's like a big guy, big, big uh